Calling a Professional

[Pseudo]

I am out of the country... Duh Adrian ?? I just got back from Amsterdam (actually Amersfort) But I am coming to NYC at the end of the month to see my daughter. I was trying to hold off until the end of August but she wants to see daddy.
I still want food and alcohol if I help out.

Rich, I am still on AOL so yeah AIM does work for me. I am on all of the time but never see you anymore. I tried to call you but you dont answer your phone. I will be in town on the 28th so be around. Drinking sounds good to me. Bar4 is a good start. Tell Franny hello.

Later.

 

[fishywoo]

What did you say your nitrate reading Was?
.05mg/L?

 

[jackson6745]

I would appreciate any advice, but I know it can be hard to diagnose someone's problem without seeing the system first-hand. Hence, my idea to hire a profressional. Here goes...

Tank set up in Oct of 2003. Never had an algae issue until 4 months ago. I was dosing with Kalk every night about four or five weeks before the algae showed up...I suspect this--or a rock I got at a store/fragswap--is what the trigger or source was. No fish are in the tank now--they're all dead from an outbreak of ich due to over-rock scrubbing to rid algae. Only invertibrates are in the tank now, so no food (than the occasional anemone feeding) is going in.

90g main tank with 1-1.5" sandbed; 125 lbs. live rock; 55g fuge with cheato and 4-5" sandbed; 2 powerheads, 1200 MaxiJets (replaced three months ago); Aqua-C pro skimmer; chiller set at 80 degrees; the return pump is a Model 7 utility pump, which says on the Web that it's output is 8100 lph.

Water comes from RO/DI unit that has just had all filters changed this spring. 20% water changes weekly, although I have also been doing small 10% changes mid-week since the algae sprang up.

PO4: .003-.005
NO3: 5 mg/L

Lights: 3 VHO super white 110 watt bulbs plus 3 super actinic 110 watt bulbs. Just changed all bulbs this spring. Light cycle used to be:

1 white/1 actinic on at 9AM; off at 9PM
2 white/2 actinic on at 10AM; off at 8PM

Now, we're doing 2 white/2 actinic on for 4.5 hours during the day to try and curb the algae growth (it's working).

Thoughts?

I see a mojor problem in flow. 2 MJ's + a mag 7 is no where near enough flow for your tank. You must have a lot of detritus in the main tank which leads to deteriorating water conditions. I would also pull the sandbed in the fuge since it has stored a lot of waste since 2003. Go with a bare bottom fuge. You can start running micron bags over the overflow pipe to capture waste which will help a little.
If you really want to have an easier time with everything you should upgrade your skimmer.

 

[marrone]

Where do you live in NYC?

 

[NYCJodi]

I live in Chelsea.

Rich, I'd like to know more about what you're saying. In a lot of what I've read, deep sand beds are the suggested way to go. This is what we were trying to do in the fuge. Is that no longer the prevailing school of thought? Does that sand have to be completly replaced every year? Two years?

The main tank seems like it has a strong flow, but perhaps it's not enough. Are more powerheads the answer, or do I need to upgrade the Mag 7?

Instead of ugrading the skimmer, is there another filter or smaller skimmer that someone would recommend to augment my current one? As I said, the stand will only accommodate about 26" below the main tank. Some of the "nicer" skimmers are too tall.

I'd appreciate your thoughts.

 

[Josh]

3-5 years ago, deep sand beds were the prevailing design. You could hardly find anyone doing a shallow bed, let alone a bare bottom.

After shutting down my deep sand bed tank, I feel comfortable saying that I will go with a bare bottom or extremely shallow sand bed for my next tank.

When I cleaned out the sand bed it was as thick as mud in some areas. There was simply no way to remove the waste and detritus that had built up over 5 years, even though I mixed up the sand every few months.

What Rich mentioned about flow is spot on accurate. I bet if you increase the flow the algae will be seriously stunted and die off.

 

[marrone]

I don't think that flow is a problem and if you look the nitrates are very low so the sand beds look like they're working. Also you don't need out of this world flow to have a successful tank, it just not the answer to everything to increase the flow, also some algae once that take hold no flow is going to get rid of it. What has happen here is a type of algae has taken hold of the tank and it either needs to be remove by hand or with some kind of clean up crew or fish.

Right now what needs to be done is to determine what type of algae that it is and from there what actions is needed. A picture would be really a good thing to see the whole algae and the tank itself.

 

[DRZL]

Wow, is it my breath?! Ive got some of my own algae probs going on a few threads down, no ones givin me love

Not to take away from your thread I feel that Marrone's advice about the snails is right on, ever think of putting a sea hare? Those things are HA machines. Also I am full on BB, (display,sumpfugium) The alge will be hard to get if at all, you need something to turn that hard to reach algae into poop that can be easily taken out, think of it as conversion.

And about the flow, I have a 63x turnover in my tank and the areas where I get the most GHA and brown stringy pockets are in the flows path. So saying that inherently having good flow will minimize algae is hogwash IMO, as its blasting nutrients faster past these nuisances, speed buffet anyone?

So to recap, flow is good, not a cure. Algae is good when it comes in easy to remove funsize poop particles.

my 2c

 

[jackson6745]

Marrone, 5ppm nitrates is not very low for a reef and if algae is growing all over his P04 is through the roof which tells me his sandbed is not "working". Wether or not Jodi's problem is simply an algae taking off in the tank, limiting the amount of waste in the tank will only improve the problem. Increasing flow is a good step towards improved water quality because it lifts detritus into suspension wich allows your mechanical filters and skimmer to remove more waste before it has a chance to break down in the tank. I do agree with Marrone as a good cleanup crew is definitely needed.

Drzl, I must have missed your algae thread. I'll search it and reply

DRZL I cant seem to find your thread. Whats the deal with your algae? What salt are you using?

 

[Deanos]

DRZL's algae problem

 

[marrone]

Rich JodiNYC nitrates are at 5, which is a very low # and I would guess that alot of people here on MR are running higher than that. As for Phosphate the tank is running at
.003-.005 which is also a low # and phosphate can come from many different places. The problem here has nothing to do with the sand bed, as it seems to be working or the nitrates would be alot higher, it's that an algae was introduced into the tank and some kind of cleaner needs to be used to remove it as it can't be removed by hand or scrubbing. I just had some type of hair aglae that I couldn't get rid of and once I added a rabbit fish it was all gone within 2 weeks, took the rabbit fish sometime to start eating it, and it's been gone every since.

 

[Sean]

to answer your phosphate question
instead of me explaining I got this from an article

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/pages/printpage.php?article_id=146

Importantly, standard aquarium kits measure the orthophosphate level, not the amount of organic phosphate. Secondly, they?re perhaps not as accurate as they need to be for aquarium use.

If you get a zero reading from your kit, and you think this means you?ve got no phosphate in your tank at all, you?d be wrong.
Since the kits can?t detect organic phosphates, they?re only showing part of the picture, and because they?re not as precise as they could be, zero doesn?t really mean zero. No aquarium is ever completely free of phosphate, and few can get close to the accuracy needed to see whether you?ve got the 0.015 mg/l or below that the expert reefkeepers recommend.

Typical aquarium phosphate kits give you a rough idea of what?s happening, but aren?t cut out for really precise measurements.

If you want a more accurate indication of the phosphate level, see if you can get hold of a professional phosphate testing kit from Merck, Hach or Hanna Instruments. But be prepared to pay well over ?50 for it!

hope that helps a little

also if you have a lot of organics in your gravel or sand bed you may just be storing phosphates in there and feeding the algae. Clean your sand bed (not to well just enough to get rid of the crap that?s in it). Get some more hermit crab or snails whichever one is living and eating the algae. Movement of water and a bigger skimmer could help but I don?t think it's going to solve the problem.

 

[jackson6745]

Michael, everyone has their own way of running a reef. I consider .05 phosphates and 5ppm nitrates very high for a reef. On salifert testkits I run both N03 and Po4 with a reading of "0" and I'm algae free, but as Sean said testkit "0" doesn't actually mean non-existent.

PS .005 would be very low for phosphate but i'll assume it's a decimal error since I don't know of a standard testkit with that precise measurment.

 

[NYCJodi]

The nitrates and phosphates, while some may say high and some may say low, are the LOWEST they've been since I started the tank. I had no algae with high(er) nitrates and phosphates. Now, with low(er) nitrates and phosphates algae is an issue. ?? It doesn't make much sense.

I will order more hermits and snails tonight.

All the rabbitfish I see listed online are only for 100+ gallons. My tank is only 90g. Is there a smaller type of rabbitfish?

Pix to follow.

PS. the .005 PO4 reading was a decimal error. Should be .03-.05.

 

[NYCJodi]

Pix 1 of 3.

 

[NYCJodi]

Pix 2 of 3.

 

[NYCJodi]

Pix 3 of 3.

I did the best to represent the type of algae. I hope you can see it in the pictures.

 

[NYCJodi]

Sorry, this is really pix 3 of 3.

 

[marrone]

Can't really tell from the pictures but it looks like hair algae. Check New World as they have some small rabbit fish that will get rid of the algae in a short time. They have about 3 of them in one of the large tanks in the back. With additional snails and hermits they should help remove the algae.

Some time when you introduce some type of algae into the tank in just takes hold and is hard to get rid of, even with low or no nitrates or Phos.

I couldn't get rid of the algae that was growing in my tank, even with hermits and snails, but the rabbit fish got rid of it all and I've been algae free for a month now.

The Rabbit fish at New World are small and should stay that size for awhile. They should be find in your tank and wouldn't out grow it for a quite a while. They do get big, I have 3 different types in my fish only tanks with the smallest at about 9" and largest at about 12", but it does take some time.

 

[marrone]

By the way outside of the algae, and your fish dying from ich, how are your corals doing.