Ammonia in water-change water

[Pedro Nuno Ferreira]

What's killing me is I have NEVER seen this before. I still feel something is going on today in the manufacturing process... The manufacturer has not yet replied. I am assuming that Kathy is using the same salt as me. Tonight, I am going to go to petco and buy whatever salt they have and test. I feel it's a problem with this salt brand.

It would also be helpfull if others could make a small cup of saltwater with their RO/DI water and salt and post their results before and after the addition of salt to the water.

Hi ;-)

I suggest you also read this article by Dr. Ronald L. Shimek and this one to and this one to and this one to...you will find some interesting data about synthetic salt mixes

Cheers
Pedro Nuno

 

[rgun2515]

Others have PM'd me that they ARE using the same salt and have the same results. Not looking good for this manufacturer...

They have not yet replied so I will be calling them this morning. More to come...

Pedro - I am sure I have not had these results with this salt in the past, but I am going to start reading your latest links now.

 

[rgun2515]

Hi ;-)

I suggest you also read this article by Dr. Ronald L. Shimek and this one to and this one to and this one to...you will find some interesting data about synthetic salt mixes

Cheers
Pedro Nuno

Not very positive links...

"No salt in this study is an accurate simulation of natural sea water."

So this is all pointless... Unless you are using natural sea water, you are doomed to failure...

Where can I get 40-60 gallons of natral sea water a month... Long Island sound... JK...

 

[Pedro Nuno Ferreira]

Not very positive links...

"No salt in this study is an accurate simulation of natural sea water."

So this is all pointless... Unless you are using natural sea water, you are doomed to failure...

Where can I get 40-60 gallons of natural sea water a month... Long Island sound... JK...

Hi ;-)
You are not doomed to failure and there are many examples of the successful use of synthetic salt mixes. I prefer Natural Sea Water, but for most of the 21 years or so that I've been in the hobby, I used mostly synthetic salt mixes and many public aquariums only use those, so there is hope. Now I mostly use Natural Sea Water, but keep at hand a salt mix just in case...
About Natural Sea Water, please read this thread Natural Sea Water (

1 2 3 ... Last Page)

Cheers
Pedro Nuno

 

[KathyC]

Not very positive links...

"No salt in this study is an accurate simulation of natural sea water."

So this is all pointless... Unless you are using natural sea water, you are doomed to failure...

Where can I get 40-60 gallons of natral sea water a month... Long Island sound... JK...

I have to agree with you after reading those links Rudy, though the salt I am using is not included in those last studies, the info in there is still disappointing on so many levels.

For those interested, I am using Coralife salt.
My tanks seems fine in that the corals and fish are doing well. While the age of the tanks, husbandry methods, equipment, bioload and volume of rock combined also affect the level of 'health' of the tanks, after reading all of the links I am not uncomfortable enough to pitch the bucket of salt I currently have just yet. I will however, use any newly made SW within 24 hours and would not start a new tank using this brand of salt. I am still on the fence about using an additive like Prime or Ammo-Lock, though I am going to look further into Ammo-Lock 2 to be sure it only contains ingredients that neutralize the effects of the ammonia.
I cannot say for sure yet whether I will change brands again as I was not pleased with the last 2 brands of salt I had been using due to other factors either (having to dose Ca & Alk & Mg, increased phosphates...).
First I want to know if others are having the same issues with ammonia in their salt brand. No point in trading one set of evils for another...

Does anyone already have some made up fresh SW at home? (not tank water please)
Could you provide the following info?
Brand of salt
Type of container it is stored in (Brute, other food-safe, other)
How long it has been in the container
Ammonia reading

Please either post it here, or if you prefer you can PM the info if you don't want your name used.
We would really appreciate it!!

 

[rgun2515]

OK. I am also ready to post my salt brand... It's also Coralife.

Just got off the phone with Dave and Rob at Central aquatics (manufacturer of Coralife salt). They say it's not a problem and is expected with any salt that has had vitamins added. They also say you would see a trace of nitrite. Tank should take care of it if running properly.

Now what?... Would love to see results kathyC requested above...

If you would like to talk to them...
http://www.central-aquatics.com/
(800) 255-4527

 

[Pedro Nuno Ferreira]

Hi
I've been wanting to test this sea salt mix, because it is said to be low on trace elements and it is claimed as a favourable mix for delicate marine organisms...well it is one of the brands mentioned in the articles posted above and the packaging in Europe looks like this

you can read some more about it here
Although I prefer Natural Sea Water and mostly if not only, use NSW, I've been wanting to try this salt mix for some time, only it is not easy for me to get it, so I wonder if any one of you as tried it and could let us know the results.

Cheers
Pedro Nuno

 

[grundig5]

I am using coralife salt for about 6 months now and in that time my tank has never really looked "right." Most recently (last 2 months) my tank has been killing acros, browning out everything, bleaching montis...basically nothing at all looks right. I am even losing very easy (IMO) to care for acros like ORA milleporas. So this thread got me wondering, since a lot of the recent carnage has come on since I opened this newest bucket of salt.
I will be testing more thoroughly this weekend but I wanted to give a preliminary reading that I find disturbing:
while my ammonia test was hard to distinguish (old test kit), I found a very definitive reading of 0.25 nitrite. The reading was taken from a very new bucket that I purchased not more than a month ago (rubbermaid trash bucket - not a brute), and the water in it is about 2 gallons left over from a water change I did more than a week ago. So this water has been circulating in the tub for maybe 10-12 days and has a noticeable nitrite reading. Perhaps it is basically cycled passed the ammonia stage and gone to nitrite already? I am deeply disturbed by this...

 

[prattreef]

Pedro et al, I am no chemist, but have followed these salt studies for over a decade and had many in-depth discussions with scientists and advanced hobbyists who are well qualified to comment. The bottom line is that all the salt studies are seriously flawed for one reason or another and the fact each and every one comes to a different conclusion about which is best is a good indicator of this.
Shimek's recommendation of salt has lead to the total wipeout of many systems (lots of stories on RC if you search) so I wouldn't be so fast to try that one brand.

I seriously doubt a slight Ammonia reading will have any effect whatsoever on an established system, and in fact your corals will like it. Fish might be more at risk, but again the % of water you are adding during a water exchange is small and the ammonia present will be quickly diluted and assimilated.

I think this is much ado about nothing. FWIW, I don't use coralife, I'm an Instant Ocean guy--- a salt that routinely tests mid to low on these tests. Look at my systems. Does it matter? Not really.

 

[KathyC]

Randy, I also don't put a tremendous amount of stock in the studies, but do read them none the less. Shimek's study that Pedro posted is very questionable IMO as he froze the water for quite some time IIRC, before he tested it.
I simply don't like the fact that there is ammonia is the salt mix and question why it is there at all. I'm also puzzled why nobody else has tested or posted results..in either direction aside from the one member who found nitrite rather than ammonia. I supposed I'd be more at ease if all (or many) of the salt mixes produced the same or similar results so that I knew that some of the fabulous systems (like yours) were dealing with the same challenges, as small as they may be.

I do have to pose 2 questions to you..
- why did you say the corals may actually enjoy it?
- you mention it shouldn't really affect established systems, but what would the impact be on someone just starting a system, should they be using one of the ammonia neutralizing products?

Can I also assume that you'd suggest smaller, more frequent water changes to minimize the affect of the trace ammonia so it has less impact on the fish?

..ok, that was 3 questions...

 

[sanjay]

I seriously doubt a slight Ammonia reading will have any effect whatsoever on an established system, and in fact your corals will like it. Fish might be more at risk, but again the % of water you are adding during a water exchange is small and the ammonia present will be quickly diluted and assimilated.

I think this is much ado about nothing. FWIW, I don't use coralife, I'm an Instant Ocean guy--- a salt that routinely tests mid to low on these tests. Look at my systems. Does it matter? Not really.

I have to agree with you Randy. A small ammonia reading in your water change will hardly have a negative impact. It will get further diluted since water changes are only 10-30% of your water volume most of the time.

Your fish are also producing ammonia regularly in the tank.

sanjay.

 

[prattreef]

1) they utilize it as nutrition. Old clam farm trick is to add ammonium nitrate to a system to increase growth.
2) there is no need. The levels you are talking about are harmless, unless by new system you mean one that hasn't cycled yet and has 100% new water.
3) see #2

 

[prattreef]

Rather than measuring your freshly made water, measure your tank after adding it. Is there a noticeable Ammonia reading? I doubt there is, and if there is it will disappear very quickly.

 

[KathyC]

Rather than measuring your freshly made water, measure your tank after adding it. Is there a noticeable Ammonia reading? I doubt there is, and if there is it will disappear very quickly.

I get no ammonia reading in my system..even if I do a 20g change.

The levels you are talking about are harmless, unless by new system you mean one that hasn't cycled yet and has 100% new water.

Yes, I did mean a brand new system.Would the ammonia simply become part of the cycle process? Any more of an impact once the system is 'just' finishing being cycled?

If both you & Sanjay are telling us not to worry about this, then I'm good to go! Thank you both!! :hug:

 

[prattreef]

Yes it would just cycle normally.

If problems persist in a system and there seems to be a clear link to water changes, it is quite possible that there is a bad batch of salt or something. I just don't think the ammonia level has anything to do with it.

 

[rgun2515]

I get no ammonia reading in my system..even if I do a 20g change.


Yes, I did mean a brand new system.Would the ammonia simply become part of the cycle process? Any more of an impact once the system is 'just' finishing being cycled?

If both you & Sanjay are telling us not to worry about this, then I'm good to go! Thank you both!! :hug:

The batch of salt I am using now, I have been using for 2 months. As long as I have seen the increased levels in the tank. Doing two 15 gallon water changes per week. Over time will your tank continue to use up the ammonia? or will it start to build? Am I just further along with the "bad salt" than you?

Yes it would just cycle normally.

If problems persist in a system and there seems to be a clear link to water changes, it is quite possible that there is a bad batch of salt or something. I just don't think the ammonia level has anything to do with it.

If that's true, i guess I have another problem with my tank, because it's not recovering from the water-change water. My tank is currently at the same levels of ammonia and nitrite as the water change water. Ammonia is at .15 and nitrite is at .05 in both the water-change water and in the tank. Everything looks good and nothing has died. Anyone have any suggestions?

 

[prattreef]

The batch of salt I am using now, I have been using for 2 months. As long as I have seen the increased levels in the tank. Doing two 15 gallon water changes per week. Over time will your tank continue to use up the ammonia? or will it start to build? Am I just further along with the "bad salt" than you?



If that's true, i guess I have another problem with my tank, because it's not recovering from the water-change water. My tank is currently at the same levels of ammonia and nitrite as the water change water. Ammonia is at .15 and nitrite is at .05 in both the water-change water and in the tank. Everything looks good and nothing has died. Anyone have any suggestions?

Inaccurate test kits? Either your tank is in a perpetual cycle (not sure this is possible), or the readings are false. The fact that everything looks good and nothing has died supports this idea.

 

[rgun2515]

OK... I'll try that. I will pick up a new ammonia test tonight and post the results.

 

[NYPDFrogman]

There are many additives found in commercial sea salts that aren't readily disclosed.
I have family near Hershey PA
I got a chance to met Gary over at "get Tanked aquariums in Carlise PA bout 1/2 hour from Hershey.
he markets his own brand of salt .. "Saltwater Correct"
in our conversation he referred to a couple of common additives to commercial mixes
1.EDTA Ethylene Diamine tetraacetic acid a chemical to help salt dissolve quicker
2.YPS yellow prussiate of soda as an anti caking agent
which contains cyanide
( could this be the brown precipitate that Kathy referred to, in another thread?)


maybe Sean can chime in??

I haven't tested for ammonia in years!