Wholesalers

[Anonymous]

OK I guess I'll start....

I'm a little curious as to how the wholesale side works. I am familiar with running a retail outlet (i.e. weekly availability lists and airport pickups) but how does the wholesaler order their livestock? How do they decide which fish to order or where to get them from? I know that they are shipped in by air hence the majority of them being located near major aiports (L.A., Atlanta, etc.) So how does a retailer go about choosing a wholesaler? Because obviously if an LFS wants to be "responsible" he needs to know whether or not those he does business with is "responsible" as well.

Glenn

 

[MaryHM]

Rover,

Excellent question! Especially since I know the answer to it!

Wholesalers order their livestock pretty much the same as retailers. We get a weekly availability list, place our order, and pick it up at the airport.

As far as retailers choosing wholesalers, it's pretty much based on two things:
1. Advertising- Most of the "big boys" advertise in FAMA and the trade mags and get a lot of customers that way. They also have contact lists of all the retail stores in the US and they send out "feeler faxes" to try to draw business.
2. Price- Retailers get a bunch of lists in from wholesalers and usually order from the cheapest. Then they realize they are actually losing money, so they start working their way up through various wholesalers.

Finding a "reputable" wholesaler is practically impossible, because no wholesaler is going to say "I suck. I import cyanide caught fish and I treat them like crap". When I worked for wholesalers as a salesperson, retailers would always ask "Are your fish net caught?". I would say "I didn't see it being caught, so I don't know for sure.". Man, did I catch some flack from my bosses for that! But it's true. IMO, any wholesaler importing fish from the Philippines or Indonesia right now is supporting cyanide caught fish. That's why I won't import fish from those countries- cyanide is rampant and you can never be guaranteed that you're getting net caught fish. However, you can be sure you're getting net caught from countries like Fiji, Solomon Islands, Vanuatu, Marshalls, Tonga, etc... so it's best to always stick with those countries. Basically, the retailer needs to learn where animals come from and find a wholesaler they can trust. It's tough.

 

[Anonymous]

So by paying attention to country of origin, it would be possible to see past the wholesale level and get an idea of the step above? My problem is when there is no country of origin listed. Also how can you be sure that the Solomon Islands fish you ordered is the fish they sent, especially if they had two or three different ones available. The whosaler that I have been to in Atlanta really didn't have things differentiated all that well.

Glenn

 

[MaryHM]

That's where finding a wholesaler you can trust comes into play. For example, you can get Coral Beauty Angels from Indonesia and Fiji. Many wholesalers will have them differentiated on the price list (Fiji is more expensive), but they're all lumped together in the same "Coral Beauty" section in the warehouse. So when you order it and someone pulls it, you could be paying the Fiji price for an Indo fish. Unfortunately there's no easy way for a retailer to insure they are not getting the Indo fish. I wish there was an easy answer, but there isn't. Actually, there is- wholesalers could house fish according to country of origin- but that will never happen because it takes too much time. And as we all know, time is money.

 

[danmhippo]

I would like to pitch in, if I may.

I am not in the fish industry and can't speak for them, but in my industry (computer), we can pretty much tell where the country of origin is by looking at the parts and the general trend of the industry. Each country has their practice of how they assemble the products. Material used is a bit different here and there. When I look at the PC board, I can guess the country of origin by the color, clarity, craftmanship of the board made. It's all minute differences but there are clues to go about.

Even though the import papers shows this product is from Phillippines, It "May" not be the place, really.

I think the fish are the same. If you have been seeing specimens received often enough (like my LFS, 20+ years), he can tell where the origin of the fish actually is by looking for the small differences on the fish/corals/inverts. Sometimes it maybe a tough call, but you can guess right at least 70% of times if you know what to look for.

Jimmy

 

[MaryHM]

I agree danmhippo. There are definitely subtle differences between same species from different countries of origin. Unfortunately, very few retailers have the experience and knowledge to discern them, and like you said, it's a tough call.

 

[SPC]

Mary, a friend of mine who owns the LFS I visit used to be in the wholesale business. We were talking the other day and he used the exact same analogy as you did with the Coral Beauty. As an Lfs owner he said that it would be imposible for him to say exactly where the country of origin was for a Coral Beauty.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

And unfortunately are usually stuck with the fish.

 

[naesco]

I have a couple of questions.
Is it true that a LFS can place an order for x, y, zed, and end up with a few mandarins etc as well whether he has ordered them or not?

Why is detritivore containing sand from offshore not available? For example a little could be shipped with a coral?
Thank you

 

[MaryHM]

naesco- Yes, of course. Many wholesalers will substitute items if they are out of something you ordered, they need to fill the box, or they just want to make some extra $$$. When I sub my customers, I make sure it is with hardy animals- not carnations or goniopora,etc.. Customers also have the option to put "No subs" on their order and I won't change a thing. Retailers need to realize they THEY have the power to stop substitutions. I have no patience for customers of mine who whine about getting unsuitable species subs from other companies. Do what I did when Indonesia started sending me dyed corals- I told them next time they did it I would deduct not only the cost of the animal, but the box charge, freight, all the fees. Guess what? No more dyed corals have been sent to me since then.

I tried to get sand from my Indonesian coral supplier, and he said they couldn't get a CITES for it. We are going to start importing it from Fiji soon. Why it isn't widely available is beyond me.

 

[danmhippo]

Interesting Mary, How do you pay for the international shipments? Is it on net terms, LC, or Wire upon delivery?

My question is if they sub your order, and the shipment is prepaid, how do you deal about it? We have the same problem in our industry (I think also just about any industry, but livestock is obviously a bit different). But most of our shipment is on net terms.

 

[MaryHM]

I wire the money to all of my suppliers within 2-10 days of it arriving.

Retailers have 3 ways of paying for shipments: COD, Credit Card, or Net terms. If they sub and you see it on the invoice, if you're COD call and refuse to pick up the shipment until they change the charges (that gets their attention QUICK). If you're credit card, reverse the charge (again, QUICK attention getter)

[ December 05, 2001: Message edited by: MaryHM ]</p>

 

[Anonymous]

The bottom of my Purchase Orders for fish usually have:

"Please don't substitute without checking with us first"

"That time of year again! Please add heatpacks!"

One problem with origins is whether or not you use a first or second tier wholesaler. A first tier wholesaler in Los Angeles (like MSI, ERI, SDC and others) will often have the origins on the avail lists. However, I have very strong aversions to shipping fish from LA to Manchester, NH due to airline transit time and abuse. It's safer for me to use a second tier wholesaler out of Florida or some other locale closer to the Boston area. Usually the prices are still reasonable because first tier companies are strictly transhipping with little or poor tanking practices. Obviously however it's difficult to learn the origin from a second tier wholesaler, however I can sometimes deduce the origin on less than common animals by comparing their lists with the lists of the first tier companies.

That said, loss rate is still a loss rate and the LFS must be conscious of the big picture. It may seem obvious but the LFS may not immediately realize that the fish they are buying that arrive alive are still dying 5 days later. Thus the higher shipping risk may actually be the better choice.

The problem is, searching for and trying new wholesalers, for me anyway, is akin to driving hot needles through my eyeballs.

 

[Anonymous]

LOL whats a six line wrasse?

last one I had in stock came in because it was homeless.

 

[SPC]

Mary, even though the wholesaler has country of origin listed, couldn't they still be lying? I would think they know which fish, coral etc... from a certain part of the world is the most desirable. How easy is it for a wholesaler to change the country of origin?
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

or for that matter how do they keep them straight?? The few wholsalers I've been to didn't seem that organized.

(what's the deal with six-lines?)


Glenn

 

[JeremyR]

Nothing in partic about the sixline.. just that it's a classic indo fish that alot of people want.. extremely hardy if caught properly, but as with all the indo fish, the quality has plummeted massively. SO basically, we don't ever get them but people are always asking for it along with a bunch of other indo type fish.. <sigh>

 

[JeremyR]

The coral beauty is definitely a good example.. the tonga coral beauties we have recieved in the last few months are extremely hardy.. the indo ones everyone else has suck. But to know you are getting a tonga or fiji coral beauty, you *must* be buying from someone you can trust. You also need to build a relationship with your wholesaler, and make your needs clear to them.. and if they refuse to meet your expectations, find someone else. I think as an LFS, you just have to make that decision NOT to buy indo or phillipine fish.. if that means not having a sixline wrasse in your store and listening to endless whining by customers about that, even after you explain why.. then so be it. At least you can sleep at night knowing someone didn't nuke a bunch of fish and corals to catch fish for YOUR store.

 

[Anonymous]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by SPC:
<strong>Mary, even though the wholesaler has country of origin listed, couldn't they still be lying? I would think they know which fish, coral etc... from a certain part of the world is the most desirable. How easy is it for a wholesaler to change the country of origin?
Steve</strong><hr></blockquote>

Depends. If they completely retype and format their availability they can do so easily. However many seem to simply slap their company logo on top of the list they get from the collectors. I'm guessing they get an availability from the collector that has a wholesale price on it, or something because many of them are in almost the exact same font, layout format suggesting they have the exact same origin.

 

[flameangel1]

Quick note--

As a LFS,the quick way I use to tell if a new wholesaler is "interesting", when they contact me about buying from them, is by their stock list.
If they list "spanish dancer"-"blue ring octupus"-sharks of any kind-cleaner wrasses- etc, then it is thrown in the trash immediately !!!
One can tell pretty quickly if they are the type of place that would be responsible about the animals and their customers.

But, yes- I learned the hard way, like a lot of us did.
It takes time to learn who one can trust in this industry and building a relationship with ones "rep" is very important also. A good "rep" is invaluable.