Problems finding new wholesaler

[martynhulyer]

Nathan seems to be the only one that has understood what I was getting at and to address what I was asking

((I quote Nathan.
This is where this hobby seems to be backwards. If a wholesaler wants to be ethical in collection, etc. and then does nothing to ensure the animals are treated properly when they leave their care this doesn't make sense.
I know there has been an attempt to get retail shops to be certified in some manner or another, however I'm not sure to the extent this has been done. If this was completed the retail outlet could be pressured by the customer and the wholesaler to be certified and this might go a long way in helping the hobby.))

This is the situation in the UK a rough sketch.
Anyone selling live animals in the UK must have a pet shop lisence.
The local council provides the pet shop lisences.
To be able to be issued with a pet shop lisence you have to state exactly what animals you keep and you have to be able to supply the correct enviroment and care and housing needed for what you have stated you keep.
The premises has to be inspected for a number of things apart from safety and things but also to check the amounts of the stated animals you keep and the amount you are allowed to stock so as to be able to supply the correct enviroment and care and housing needed.
Should you dicide at a future date to keep other types of animals that a pet shop lisence was not issued for then you have to apply for the additions to the pet shop lisence and the premises have to be inspected again to see if you can provide for the extra additions of animals and there care and housing etc can be met.

A very rough explaination.

However There is still much to be improved.
There is a widely held belief in the animal welfare industry and local authorities that shortcomings in current legislation lie at the root of the problem. The Pet Animals Act 1951, which was amended in 1983, stipulates that local authorities are responsible for issuing licences to pet shop owners. This law requires that local authorities only issue a licence if they are satisfied that animals are kept in suitable accommodation. The authority may attach strict conditions to the licence, may inspect the licensed premises at any reasonable time and may refuse a licence if the premises are not satisfactory or the terms of the licence are not complied with. The onus therefore lies with local authorities to enforce and regulate the system. However, the existence of a wide variation in pet shop standards is interpreted as a failure by local authorities to enforce consistently under an old law which seriously needs reviewing.

A national seminar attended by 80 delegates and organised by Ipswich Borough Council last September, highlighted the importance of improving national pet shop standards. One of the main issues raised was the need for greater consistency in current application and enforcement licence conditions, and a better working relationship between the various agencies involved in animal welfare. Keith Davenport, chief executive of pet trade group the Ornamental Aquatic Trade Association (OATA) emphasised the discrepancies between local authorities: "Pet shop licences vary in cost nationally from nil to over £300 and the number of inspection visits per premises can range from none to four in any one year." Furthermore, the competency of officers carrying out inspections varies considerably and it is not unusual for local authorities to send their most inexperienced members of staff.


What I am asking is not that the Wholesaler checks that the animals are cared for correctly and housed correctly
What I am asking is are there laws in the US that are like the law quoted above and inspections are carried out for the same reasons as above so that a lisence can be issued.
(The inspections and checks are included in the cost of the lisence.)
And if there are then the wholesaler should only be supplying those retailers that have the lisences to sell house and care for the animals they are selling that the lisence covers.
(The animals the lisence covers are on the lisence so by providing the lisence to the wholesaler the wholesaler knows what animals the retailer can keep and care for)
I believe that there must be some form of law so that animals sold are cared for and housed correctly for the type of animals they are.
As far as profit how long you have been trading for the business methods etc etc(we are talking about live animals not equipment etc) at the end of the day it is important that the live animals that are being traded and sold and that whoever is supplying and selling these animals gives the correct care and housing to these animals as well as the wholesaler and retailer should be selling these animals to those that can care for there needs I know its not easy to do but it should be the aim of all envolved who sell animals.

Martyn

[ December 08, 2001: Message edited by: martynhulyer ]</p>

 

[MaryHM]

Martyn:

Short answer is no, there are no similar laws in the US. I'm surprised and pleased to see such legislation exists somewhere. Could you possible direct me to a copy of it?

 

[Anonymous]

Actually I believe there are laws governing that. I was inspected last month because a customer noticed a dead hermit crab (land) in one of our displays. A pet store must be inspected by the department of agriculture in order to obtain a license and there are some pretty specific rules that are required. The problem with the system is, these are Department of Agriculture guys. There main focus is usually dogs, cats, small animals, birds and reptiles (somewhat). They usually just glance at the aquariums, notice thr type of filtration and as long as there aren't dead fish every where it's fine. Another problem is they are very lenient and give you umpteen chances to fix any problems before you lose your license. Records for all sales of animals must be kept and maintained with the exception of inverts, fish, and rodents. The structure is there it's just a matter of getting some one knowledgeable to run and enforce it.

Glenn

 

[MaryHM]

Rover- Any idea if that is a state thing or a federal thing??

 

[martynhulyer]

Hi Rover.
sounds like a similar thing and the way it can be run depending on who is in charge of running the local area.

Hi Mary.
The nearest thing I can find on line is this.

http://www.halton.gov.uk/legal/LawandAnimals1.asp

I am not sure if this includes Corals.

any description of vertebrate” i.e. mammals, birds, reptiles, amphibians and fish.

Non-vertebrates are not covered by the Act.

Invertebrate, «ihn VUR tuh briht,» is an animal that lacks a vertebral column (backbone). The bones of the vertebral column are called vertebrae. The scientific name for animals without backbones is Invertebrata, meaning without vertebrae. Animals that have vertebral columns are called vertebrates, or Vertebrata. There are more than 1 million known species (kinds) of invertebrates and about 40,000 species of vertebrates.
There are many invertebrates, and they take in many forms of animals,

Is a invertebrate a Non-vertebrate ?.
Is this act talking about only vertebrate animals with backbones or are animals invertebrates without backbones included or are these non_ vertebrate ?.
Have to find that out.
I presume invertebrates are non_vertebrates.

Anyway

There is much to be improved and inforced on this law and there are organisations working at it.

Fish and Corals seem to get the worsed deal so far.

Martyn

[ December 08, 2001: Message edited by: martynhulyer ]</p>

 

[Anonymous]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote

Rover- Any idea if that is a state thing or a federal thing??

Good point. I'm fairly sure it's a state (Georgia) thing. I know that the various states around us have different rules about what they can sell (i.e. Alabama and Tennessee can sell pirahna and fresh water stingrays, and other states can sell sugargliders and hedgehogs).

Glenn

 

[MattM]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Rover:
<strong>Actually I believe there are laws governing that...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Same thing here in New Hampshire. Except here the Dept. of Agriculture guys don't even want to license you if you're an aquarium-only store. They are centered on furry and feathered animals.

The state regulations cover things like adequately sized and clean cages. There's not one word applicable to fish and inverts.

 

[JeremyR]

You don't have to get a license to sell fish in mass either.. but you do for other pets. I'm pretty sure CT also has the fish exclusion.

 

[Terra Ferma]

As classy as it would be to claim neutrality on this topic, I must say this.

Garage operations are where I get the best and healthiest livestock from, fish or coral. To boot, the only places in my area (SF Bay Area)that carry more advanced reef keeping drygoods are garage operations. IMO, if store front operations want to cater to SW and reef aquariasts, they need to make some major changes. Most store fronts here have a very limited, and frankly, lame selection of SW livestock. There are exceptions, but this is generally the rule. It has also been my experience that the garage operations are run by hobbyists/businessmen that truly know how to do SW. No bad, ludicrous, advice that will just bring new customers back in to replace dead livestock. Price is not an issue; if owners bring the quality, customers will pay for it. Many garage operations charge just as much as storefronts (they have overhead too, what with maintaning the proper systems to ensure coral health). I am not a neoliberal political economist per se, but let the market sort itself out. Either way the wholesalers will be selling just as much. The United States has chosen to run a market society in a winner get all manner, why not just let that be the case. The consumers will sort everything as far as who stays in business and who does not. Protectionist measures are, in the long run, nothing more than a dead weight loss to the hobbyists.

 

[JeremyR]

We can't sell pirahna.. not that I would anyways.. but for crying out loud, this is new england.. they won't survive. If I carried reptiles.. I would not be allowed to sell gators either.. but you can sell both in RI, so stores in RI do huge biz in both because everyone in mass goes accross and buys them. People come down from maine and say koi are illegal there, and I'm pretty sure in NH and maine a bunch of fw aquarium plants are illegal.

 

[Anonymous]

Do you have any restrictions on what you can and can't sell? Here pretty much any native fish is illegal as well as some things that could live in our climate, (i.e. feral pirahna populations

). There is a two page list of the fish and reptiles we arent allowed to carry.

Glenn

 

[VkeSu]

This is a discussion between two people who
1. Have an established buiness (clientel, phone bills, Insurance bills, work. comp., taxes, employee tax, income tax etc !)If you've never owned a business, it's a real shocker!!
2. People who have the dream of owning there own business w/all employees doing the work while they are in Fiji diving.

It is unfair that garage buisness can't get that great deal, but it is also unfair it takes so much money to run a legit. business. If you start small you'll find the ones that will sell to you. You'll also build up a reputation which others will want to sell to you. IMO (and experience if you can't tell)

 

[flameangel1]

Hi Mary,,
Congrats on this new forum and VERY glad that we have an Honest, Ethical wholesaler and collecter for a moderater.

To all of you who have garage and basement "businesses"--
We who are "storefronts" have to pay Business insurance-rent-state registrations, licenses, phone book listings, SALES TAX,higher rates for electricity and heating products,and have many more "legal business" overhead costs.
We also maintain parking lots in all weather, are required to have regular business hours,have far more accounting practices,get untold time involved with every salesman around for anything,
and most of us "do not own the business-the business OWNS us "!!

As far as wholesalers selling to us, if we are responsible enough and ethical enough to do these things legally, we are a much better "risk" as far as them collecting on our checks .

By the way, some of us LFS happen to care very much about our animals and our customers!!

 

[Anonymous]

Although I think most restrictions are put in place and enforced by the DNR. I've never been real clear on how the two (Dept. Ag and DNR) work together.

Glenn

 

[Anonymous]

You'd be surprised Jeremy. There was a huge Pacu caught from somewhere around the Bantam Lake area last year and this past summer there was an alligator caught by a fisherman in New Haven.

 

[npaden]

I typically try to stay conservative and not go to the extreme on one side or another. I tried to do so in my first post, however many of the responses since then have been extreme to one side or the other.

Basically this isn't about $ and cents to the hobbyist but it is to the wholesaler and the retailer and they have made that obvious in their responses to this thread. It's their livelyhood and they cannot be unbiased.

I still feel that the basis for whether you can buy animals should be based on your proven ability to keep the animals alive and healthy - not whether you can sell them at a profit or not. This is where I feel that we see the conflict of interest show up for the wholesalers involved. I realize this is idealistic, however that's my perogative because I'm in this as a hobbyist and not as my livelyhood.

Oh well, it's hopeless in any case.

Nathan

 

[Cappuccino Bay Aquarium]

I had an interesting reaction from an inspector during a visit to our store, The inspector asked if we planned on practicing Euthanasia with reguards to sick fish,Fish that were likly not to survive?.........I told her"Yes!" We shall feed them to the sharks and Groupers........And we will make sure all the "DOOMED"feeder fish die soon after they leave the store?.........BUT NEVER WITHIN THE STORE?

 

[JeremyR]

JustPhish:
How do you know the pacu and gator were not spring/summer release that were caught not too long after? Do an experiment.. put a pacu in 40 degree water and see how long it lives. I know plenty of people with 10+ pound pacus.. (I've seen them over 20) that are begging to get rid of them, and if nobody will take them, they let them go no matter what you tell them.. and they probably get caught soon after because they think anything is food. Just because someone catches one in new england, doesn't mean it's been in the water for a winter. If they could survive here.. we'd be catching oscars etc. all the time like they do in florida, because people *do* let them go here... but they do not survive the winter.

 

[JeremyR]

Anyways.. I don't sell pacus/pirahna or large cichlids anyways.. not my market.. and I think pacus should be out due to their huge size anyways...so nobody can accuse me of having a conflict of interest there.. heh.

But this is a marine board.. heh.

 

[Blowfishaq]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by flameangel:
<strong>To all of you who have garage and basement "businesses"--
We who are "storefronts" have to pay Business insurance-rent-state registrations, licenses, phone book listings, SALES TAX,higher rates for electricity and heating products,and have many more "legal business" overhead costs.
We also maintain parking lots in all weather, are required to have regular business hours,have far more accounting practices,get untold time involved with every salesman around for anything,
and most of us "do not own the business-the business OWNS us "!!

As far as wholesalers selling to us, if we are responsible enough and ethical enough to do these things legally, we are a much better "risk" as far as them collecting on our checks .

By the way, some of us LFS happen to care very much about our animals and our customers!!</strong><hr></blockquote>

First you need to step back and stop assuming that home based businesses do not pay taxes, do not pay sales tax, do not pay state license fees, and other "Legal Business" overhead costs. I do pay all of these. This was not the point of this post.

The point of the post was to ask why exclude us. My money is just as green as yours. I am opening my storefront within the next 2 months. It is called the internet. Welcome to the storefront of the future.

Bryan