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Anonymous

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Jeremy Russell:
<strong>So are you leaving or going? Either offer something constructive.. or don't offer anything.. and for crying out loud, READ THE POSTS YOU ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT BEFORE YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT THEM!</strong><hr></blockquote>

Maybe you can understand what constructive is, maybe not. I have read the post and as I said it's content suggests more reasons to keep importing some fish that many have always viewed as extreem high mortality for what ever reason that they die in such vast numbers.
 
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Anonymous

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I think the point is, that rather than bringing up your opions in the thread you chose to start another "see I told you so" thread which is antogonizing and not constructive.

Glenn
 

JeremyR

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<<I think the point is, that rather than bringing up your opions in the thread you chose to start another "see I told you so" thread which is antogonizing and not constructive.>>

That's precisely it.

Btw I don't generally stock butterflies either.. been at least 2 years since I had one in at all... last one I had was a red sea racoon. I did try to order a fiji net caught of a hardy species a month or so ago, but I didn't get it.
I don't stock mandarins either. I don't stock indo fish, even of hardy species. I don't stock phillipine fish... I spend time here and on boards in general to try to make a difference.. not to try to pontificate (pontificate: to speak or express opinions in a pompous or dogmatic way).
 

EmilyB

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I was actually going to post last night, but I am just a Canadian....let's face it, we will have to go with what happens in the US.

The shrimpfish thing just threw me for a loop, two posts and its back okay ?? Maybe I missed something ?

I don't have a shrimpfish, I do have a year-old butterfly that is one of the hardiest fishes I have ever owned, I have a pair of spawning mandarins, well they are actually Synchiropus picturatus, so they're not really, are they...what kind of a list is in common names ??? Point being, it isn't hard to come up with successes.

I'd have to go back and find the exerpt on this forum about fishes being too "expensive" to feed, I mean what is the quantitative explanation of that ??

I find a lot of this absurd...sorry.

What is this whole forum for...it is surely escaping me...

As I say, Canadian hobbiest only....I have no desire to help any specific importer become more preferential.
 

MaryHM

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Emily:

The problem with the shrimpfish thing is that it is a gray area. There is documented evidence stating that they can be fed using live brine and live mysis. Fish that are to be banned must fall into a black and white category, not gray. The decision was not based on the fact that one person chimed in and said "I've had success with shrimpfish". It was based on this:

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr>And according to Scott Michaels "Reef Fishes"

"Shrimpfishes can be kept in aquariums as small as 30 gallons and will thrive in captivity as long as thier dietary needs are met. This requires providing a source of minute, living crustaceans like brine shrimp, amphipods, copepods, and shrimp larvae.....A colony of Peppermint Shrimp (Lysmata wurdemanni) although not sympatric with these fishes-will add food items by breeding and producing larvae."<hr></blockquote>

This is the statement that put shrimpfish in that "gray" category.

Expensive to feed basically means that to obtain the food on a regular basis would cost a LOT of money. For instance, take the SPS eating blenny we discussed- honestly, who is going to be able to provide a steady diet of SPS on a daily basis for a blenny? I noticed in another post you said you were throwing away coral growth, but are you throwing away enough to feed a blenny SPS polyps daily?? If so, please let me know your techniques so I can use them for my farm!!
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As far as the purpose of this forum, I'll paste a quote I made in the Responsible Reefing thread

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
The purpose of this forum is for the knowledge to be a two way street- industry learning from hobbyists AND hobbyists learning from industry. The main purpose of this thread is to help me help MAC and AMDA prepare good, solid, valid lists for their respective organizations. We can not just hand this list to industry professionals and say "follow this". We need the backing of existing organizations if anything is ever going to be done. This is not going to be a "Mary Middlebrook says" or "Reefs.org says" list. It is intended to help create the MAC and AMDA lists- both of which I am involved in.
 
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Jeremy

I am glad you derive so much pleasure from my signature. There are people on this board who know me personally Steve(SPC), Butch(JMeader), Joe(forget his logon name) if you ask them I am pompous and very secure with who I am. Have I helped other reefers, I think so but maybe not.
 

naesco

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Mary.
I want to comment on the expensive to keep issue you raised in your post.
If I decided to keep a 'difficult' not impossible to keep buterflyfish for example I would have to invest in more expensive food like sponge, spend a heck of a lot more time on water conditions, determining suitable tankmates etc.; the type of committment that the average reefer cannot make.

But if I decide to keep shrimpfish over and above all of the above, I would have to invest in a whole new additional setup (ie another reef tank)just to keep that species that others have posted requires that detailed attention or they die.

So Mary IMO there may be the rare reefer who may want to go to the time and expense to keep them.
The problem is they are not sold as such. They are in the LFS tanks with the rest of fish and sold to unsuspecting reefers who want one of them there fish that swim sideways.
For that rare reefer that wants one provide some means so that he can get it from the LFS or Net, through you or another wholesaler.
The same 'means' can get you some if you are attempting breeding, educational and all that good stuff.
I do not want to deny a reefer the opportunity to try a difficult species. I want to stop the abuse.
 

SPC

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I agree with Wayne, IMO we must concentrate on what the average (fish buyer) has access to. Most fish are purchased by those who walk into an LFS, look in the tanks, look at the prices and then make their decision. I think its important to remember that the majority of people who frequent these boards are not your average "fish buyer". It is also important to remember that we who frequent these boards are the vast minority of those who keep SW tanks. Most fish that are purchased are done so because the person saw them in the LFS tank.
Steve
 

MaryHM

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I keep saying this statement, so forgive me for being redundant. However, it's so fitting it bears repeating.

Animals that are to be banned can not fall into a gray area. It must be a documented, black and white area.

You can not measure someone's experience level. You can not measure someone's desire to do the right thing. You can not measure knowledge. Because of evidence that has been presented, there is DOCUMENTED evidence showing that shrimpfish can be fed on live brine, mysis, etc... Many pet shops provide this for their customers. These are the same foods that seahorses and pipefish feed on, and those animals are sucessfully kept by a great number of hobbyists. If access to live foods was such a hardship, the keeping of seahorses/pipefish would not be possible.

Keep in mind that I'm not trying to be a hard a$$ about the whole shrimpfish thing. I understand your point. But we cannot include fish on the list that are in a gray area, and in my opinion and the opinion of others they are "gray". Also remember that what is put on this list isn't the definitive, unchanging list of unsuitable species. Believe me, once it is presented to the MAC and AMDA unsuitable species committes there will be a TON of debate. For now, I have to try to construct a list that is black and white. If I provide a list that few people can argue with, the list will be taken more seriously. But if I present a list with a bunch of "gray" stuff on it, it will be shot down and dismissed. Remember guys, we have to create the list based on documented evidence, not feelings and emotions.
 
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You have to differentiate between reform at the wholesale level and reform at the LFS level. We need both. Not importing impossible to keep species is the responsibility of the wholesaler. Their responsibility ends when the fish leaves their facility. They simply do not have the means to track every fish to make sure it has found the appropriate home. Not selling difficult fish or those with special requirements to inexperienced or unprepared aquarists is the responsibility of the LFS. It is their job to weed through the customers to ensure that the animal is getting an appropriate home. Their responsibility ends when the fish leaves their store. At some point you simply have to trust the customer when they say they knwo what they are doing. If you want to make the more difficult stuff harder to get and have the LFS set up to cater to the "average" aquarist (IMO) you have to include all coral (they require a specialized set up) and a lot of the fish. This is a hobby that takes skill, by hitting the mainstream salt water aquarium owner (who just replaces their fish every month), while saving many animals from certain death, you have to dumb down the hobby to the point where the vast majority on this board would lose their availability to the animals we want to keep. You simply can't quantify skill.

Glenn

[ December 15, 2001: Message edited by: Rover ]</p>
 

Chucker

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Perhaps this is oversimplifying things a bit, but why can't we create a gray list too? Put the species that are under debate there, and then each one can be treated individually.
 

SPC

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First of all I would like to say that I second the gray area category proposed by Chucker.
Second, both Mary and Glen are correct about this gray area being a seperate issue that deals more with the retail level rather than the import level. I humbly retract my statement for now, but will debate it when the subject involves the retail level.
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Steve
 

MaryHM

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Pay attention guys
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I have said a few times that after we finish working on the unsuitable for import list that we'll work on another list for those "gray" species. Quit making me repeat myself or I'm gonna beat each of you with a porcupine puffer!
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Chucker

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The point of starting a grey list now instead of later is to prevent everyone from getting sidetracked to debating the merits of importing a species and losing the thread's focus. If we've got something we can't all agree on, toss it on the grey list and deal with it later.
 

MaryHM

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The "gray" list will be for species which are deemed for experienced hobbyists only. It will have nothing to do with the "Unsuitable for Import" list. I physically can't keep track of two lists right now. Let's finish this one, then we'll work on the other one. The fish that were on the original Tullock list that are "gray" are already in a separate list on the Unsuitable Species List thread, so we can easily revisit them when the time comes.
 

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