tazdevil

Experienced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
O.k., the title is pretty blunt, but I must ask what we can do about shoddy retailers. The distributors can be blames for importing some species that are unsuitable, but what about a retailer that knowingly sells difficult species to someone with little or no experience. Or those that willingy accept the impossible to keep species knowing that they will die shortly, only to blame the hobbyists tank conditions.

I'll give you an example. While I was in a LFS here (for the last time), a 11 year old kid that had just started a fish only tank walked in. I watched the retail manager watch this kid and his dad looking at a beautiful regal angel that had just come in. I know these are some of the most difficult to keep angels (apparently, those from Indian Ocean do better than Phillipines wonder why that is
icon_rolleyes.gif
) and I wouldn't try to keep them yet. Well, the manager eagerly told the father/son combo that this was a " easy to keep" species of angel. I wasn't sure what would happen if I stepped in and said otherwise, and not wanting to go to jail at that moment, I walked out after they bought the angel, shaking my head. I can only imagine the despair this kid felt a few weeks (if even) later when the angel probably died. By how excited he was about getting it, you could only imagine.

If this isn't the right area for this topic, sorry, please move to proper area then.
 

MaryHM

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
That SUCKS SUCKS SUCKS and drives me insane!! The reasoning behind it could be one of two things (neither of which are good excuses)
1. Retailer doesn't really know that it's a hard to keep species. Ignorance is rampant in this hobby and industry.
2. Retailer wants to make money and that's all he cares about.

If I were you, I would have stepped in and said something. They can't arrest you for speaking the truth. Maybe suggest a good book to the newbies. We need more kids to get involved in this hobby if it is to survive, and it's sickening that scenarios like this happen every day and end up driving people away.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
The only enforcement currently in place to control what species are allowed to be sold as pets is the Department of Natural Resources. However, they generally make such rules based on the climate and other local environmental factors to protect the local area and not to save animals that are doomed. I have also wondered what would happen if such stores were reported to agencies like the Better Business Bureau (for giving obviously wrong information to make a sale), or to the local humane societies (for killing so many animals.)
 

newreefman1

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Hey taz, I agree with mary in that you should have said something. Obviously im not flaming you for not doing so, but I find myself jumping into conversations of LFS employees and patrons all the time when irroneous information is given.
The employees dont seem to mind and sometimes actually learn something from some of my ramblings but even in the last few days, Ive met 5 local reefers from talking to them by interrupting a conversation on products and animals that werent right for their tank. Most people that I have talked with seem quite appreciative as I would be and am when I meet someone smarter in the field than myself(which is many)
icon_smile.gif


Anyways...Its a shame there are retailers like this. I think we all know one or two around in our areas. If you cant sway an owner not to carry something or to at least inform customers correctly and you HAPPEN to be there. just say HEY, yadda yadda
icon_smile.gif

PS. I wouldnt be a patron any longer of an ignorant store.

Jason.
 

tazdevil

Experienced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
In defense of my non-action,( which I now wish I had acted). I was still new to this and didn't feel comfortable doing that. Now, on the other hand, they would have recievd an earful. Mary, your second guess was the correct one. This LFS has done many things just to make money (including trying to tell me I couldn't keep any types of corals under PC lighting, when it turns out I have plenty, they did this to try to sell me an expensive lighting system). The amazing thing is this LFS recieved an award a few yrs ago for "best LFS in the state"! (makes me want to move).
 

SPC

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
My guess would be #2, wants to make money. I know for a fact (as I am sure alot of us do) that this is the case in the MAJORITY of retail operations. Reptiles get the same "one size fits all" approach. IMO, looking for much improvement at the retail level is a waste of time, its all about supply and demand.
Steve
 

Carpentersreef

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I am by no means defending the actions of the LFS selling fish/corals to obviously unqualified purchasers, but at what point does the LFS decide if they want to make a profit or make a "statement" on the ethics of aquarium keeping, and maybe put themselves out of business?
The thing about the retail pet business is that if a typical customer doesn't find what they are looking for in one store, (that may be a GREAT and responsible one) the customer will only keep trying other stores until they get what they wanted, or are told what they wanted to hear. (yes, you can keep SPS in a nano with pc's) The retailer is trying to stay in business, and I do believe that they make regular decisions that they don't fully believe in.
I think that the public and their overall ignorance and refusal to comprehend what they're purchasing is the ROOT of all bad LFS's.
If the public was better informed about the origins of the animals that they purchased, I don't think that there would be such a high demand for animals with the most vibrant color, or the most violent behaviour, or the rarest available.
I would like to see aquarists take pride in showing how realistic their aquarium reflected the conditions of a certain area in a certain part of the world.
I have found that that information is not all that easy to come by.
I am the first to admit that I don't know where most of my corals or fish came from! My LFS didn't know exactly, either, other than who he ordered them through!
With MY "garden" of corals, I can definitely see the future of my system as being a set-up of probably 8 different systems, each dedicated to a different group of corals that I am now responsible for.
I blame both my LFS and myself for that, because my LFS owner should have better knowledge about the animals he sells, and I should have better knowledge of the animals that I have bought.
It's kinda like politics - bad politicians are elected because the people just don't care.

Whenever I'm in a LFS, I try to talk to the owner or manager, and let him/her know that at least SOME of their customers ARE paying attention to what animals they are keeping and how they are being kept.
Sabotaging sales is only a sure way to get yourself kicked out.
I think!
icon_wink.gif


Mitch
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr> I think that the public and their overall ignorance and refusal to comprehend what they're purchasing is the ROOT of all bad LFS's.
<hr></blockquote>

I couldn't agree more. This is definitely the hobby where the consumer is willing to drop the most money on something they know next to nothing about. It's impossible to make sure that a customer knows everything they need in order to keep something alive. There have been many times (both fresh and salt) where I have spent a good thirty minutes educating a customer about fish keeping only to think "poor fish" as they walk out of the store. Even the customers who truly seem to know a lot still come in with a basic flaw in their understanding of how things work. Sometimes I feel like a car sales man who gets chewed out for selling a car to someone who couldn't drive. Who's fault is it really?

Glenn
 

tazdevil

Experienced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Thats my point, an LFS is responsible for selling fish to knowledgeable people. And for assisting them to better choices. They could have said "this angel is extremely difficult to care for. They don't tend to do well even under expert care, however, here's a angel/damsel/clown/whatever that might interest you, and would not demand that type of care". Now, the kid doesn't feel put down, as he can think that if experts have trouble with this fish, maybe I should get a different one. The dad would also tend to think that hey, this store is reputable, I think I'll keep coming bakc, as they tried to persuade us not to spend hundereds of dollars on a fish that might not make it, even in the best circumstances. I hold the LFS just as responsible for not finding out a customers ability to care for a fish, as I would that customer in not researching the care required. Now, before any LFS owner/worker gets on here attaking me for this, I'm not saying all LFS's are bad. Amazingly enough, there's another LFS a block away that has done things to prevent customers from buying animals they can't care for.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote
I hold the LFS just as responsible for not finding out a customers ability to care for a fish, as I would that customer in not researching the care required.

I completely agree with you and in a perfect world it would work. However, it is not always possible for even the most conscientious LFS to make completely sure that the customer is capable of doing what they say they are. Many times the customer simply tells you what you want to hear in order to get out the door. After all "it's just a fish, how complicated can it be?" Obviously reccomending a regal angel (or any other hard to keep fish) to anything but an expert is just wrong. But it works both ways.

Glenn
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
In all reality an ethical LFS spends 95% of it's time telling people what they don't need.

One unfortunate aspect however is that about 40% of the clientele are not looking for honest straight answers but answers that validate what they want to do(or what they want to hear). This is where the customer/LFS go into a nasty downward spiral together if both are ignorant of facts.

Call me naive but I find it difficult to believe that the bad LFS's are intentionally trying to 'rip people off' or purposely compromising animals lives in order to make a profit as is so often stated. Mainly because it simply isn't necessary to make a modest profit in this business. The problem is that the LFS's are woefully, in fact stunningly ignorant of the current methods in the marine hobby. It is much easier to be ignorant than be the calculating careless "Mr. Burns" of the marine aquarium trade.

Once you factor in the losses, it's much easier to do it the right way to make money than it is to have a setup that kills animals with abandon.

There does seem to be a trend developing. It seems like almost every major city or region has in it an LFS that tries to do things right. With the popularity of websites such as this, and aquarium societies in general it does seem like the networking and word of mouth about the good stores is getting out and if aquarists will support the good stores hopefully they will be around for the long term. The problem is that the ignorant LFS's prey upon the ignorant masses. Petco's are obviously the thorn in everyone's side, however we've had many new customers in our store over the years tell us that someone took them aside out of earshot of the LFS employee and said "go to Inland Reef, they will set you up right" or similar statements. This is obviously where you the aquarist can get involved. Support and promote your good LFS's and pressure the bad ones to change or drop saltwater altogether.

Also to any LFS's that read this, if there are multiple good LFS's in the region support each other. Jeremy is not an across town competitor so maybe it might be different if he was 5 minutes away as opposed to a 90 minutes or so, but I've sent customers to him and vice versa, we both pull from the Boston area, and there is plenty of business to go around. I know Jeremy isn't going to tell someone they can have a mandarin to cycle their 40 gal. Reefer's hit ALL the stores within 150 miles eventually, so there is no reason to be upset by competition, the key is to be the standout and encourage the customer to discover why.
 

EmilyB

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
R-N-P,

If I walked into any of my LFS and spouted off about unethical practises, my input would become nil. It simply doesn't work that way.

It has taken almost two years to warm enough to some of them where they will begin to listen, or take in some input. It is a slow, trust thing.
 

SPC

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I agree with Emily on that point. Not only will that kind of input go for nil, the employees will also most likely get a good laugh out of it after you have left.
Steve
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr> Support and promote your good LFS's and pressure the bad ones to change or drop saltwater altogether.
<hr></blockquote>

And in reality this means all together. If you refuse to buy livestock from a place, it defeats the whole purpose if you buy your dry goods there just to save a buck or two. There is nothing more frustrating than spending 30 minutes explaining things to a customer to have them leave and go to Walmart to buy their dry goods.

Glenn
 

JeremyR

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
This is how we do it...

We hold all marine fish at least a week, longer if I think they need it. No exceptions.. no out of bag sales. People who buy fish are asked what size tank it is, and what the tankmates are. If we *know* the fish is going into a bad situation, we refuse sale (IE, one time some college jokers wanted to buy an 12" puffer for their 30 gallon dorm tank, and got quite irate when the sale was refused). For corals, we ask them what lights they have etc. This has worked well for us, it weeds out the people who don't want to learn, and it builds a relationship with the people who do, and when they are successful, so are you. There are 2 schools of thought in this business.. sell them everything you can till they give up and make your money quick N dirty.. or teach them the right way and make your money over the long haul.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
That sounds like a good approach and similar to how we do things as well. I was reading some of our freshwater problems into the mix as well. Half of those don't know how big their tank is and the other half don't know any of the names of the fish they already have.

Glenn
 

SPC

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Yea, I have seen that one many time. Customer wants some background for their tank but when asked what size tank they have they don't know.
icon_rolleyes.gif
 

JeremyR

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Another personal choice I've made to weed out the unsavoury types is to not sell any feeder fish, and generally not sell agressive type fish. I know there are responsible people out there that have triggers because they like them, but most people who buy those types of fish are buying them to watch them kill things.. and when they kill each other, that's just part of the fun for them... and that's the type of mentality I'm not trying to cultivate. If someone wants a lion, and they are willing to feed it frozen, then I have no problem aquiring it for them, but what we keep in stock is 90% reef oriented.
 

Rich-n-poor

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
taz........

why didnt you tell the LFS that his actions were unethical and that you would rather do bussiness elsewhere than see this type of morally reprehensible sale ?

I drive 45 miles to get to my LFS even though there are 3 others closer. I do this in spite of the fact that his prices on corals/fish are usually twice what the others charge.

I do this for the following reasons:

He sells captive bred/tank raised fish whenever possible.

He sells fragged/captive propagated corals which he gets from several of his customers.

He has talked me out of several big purchases as unecessary (wet/dry filter, ect)

I have seen him talk people outta purchases which would have surely died in their system (including talking me outta a mandarian dragonet)

I once saw him flatout refuse to sell someone a fish after testing their water.

this is what he told me after I witnessed that. I dont want to sell you one or two or even ten fish which you watch die and then quit the hobby. I want to sell 2 or 3 that live, then sell you your first coral, then your second coral, then a bigger tank, a bigger skimmer, a 100 lbs of rock, another coral, ect.
In short he wants you to suceed at reefing cause he knows if your happy, he will sell you a bigger tank and all the equipment with it a year from now.
I drive twice as far, sometimes I pay twice as much, but I am always happy with my purchase and the service I get. Let alone that I trust his advice
icon_biggrin.gif

_________________
New Relationship Advice Forum
 

Sponsor Reefs

We're a FREE website, and we exist because of hobbyists like YOU who help us run this community.

Click here to sponsor $10:


Top