MaryHM

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
There are probably people in the world that would have a serious allergic reaction to a (fill in the blank with coral/anemone) sting. I don't think we need to worry about protecting the .05% of the population that would have an adverse reaction. Probably better to just deal with generalities. IMO, "dangerous animals" actually should read "deadly animals". Dangerous is subject to ambiguity, deadly isn't. Dead is Dead.
icon_smile.gif
 

davelin315

Advanced Reefer
Location
Virginia
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Hi Steve, thanks for giving me the heads up on this thread, I've been very busy at work and haven't had too much time to browse the boards, and I really haven't looked into this category much since it's inception. As Steve (SPC) said, I've got a lot of experience with many of the species which we are talking about on this thread.

Blue Ring Octopus - As far as being in the deadly category, there is no doubt that you will not find anything deadlier in the marine trade than this beautiful and exotic animal. When I was in college, I ordered an octopus from my LFS, and they got a blue ring by mistake. I took it in, and it only lived for a short time (I don't think it did too well in shipping). As with any species, you need to have the proper knowledge to support this animal. Without this, you're asking for trouble. How many people out there know that it has one of the most potent neurotoxins of any animal in the world? And that if you get bitten, you could feasibly die within minutes? Not many. As far as banning this animal from collection and shipping, I think that this would probably be a good idea. I love to get diversity in my tanks, but some things are going too far. I don't think I'll ever see an animal that approaches the beauty and intelligence of an octopus, but they are simply too difficult to keep, especially with the added risk of death from a blue ring. Also, how many of us can support the proper eating habits of an octopus? Not many.

Chiloscyllium punctatum- Banded Shark- This is probably the most frequently imported shark. It's also the species that is found in the "egg cases" you see in LFS.- Mainly lay around
Chiloscyllium plagiosum- I think this is the Cat Shark- Mainly lay around

Cat sharks and banded sharks are pretty much the same thing when it boils down to it. They have different patterns and slightly different lifestyles, but are pretty similar in their characteristics and habits. Being sedentary creatures, the appeal in the marine hobby is that you can keep them in a smaller tank without worrying about them looking for more room to grow. Since maximum length in certain ones is very limited, they make a seemingly ideal species to keep. That said, they are notoriously bad eaters when not hatched from an egg in captivity, and I have heard that many importers use cyanide to catch them. I don't know what kind of affect their importation is having on their wild populations, but it can't be good. IMHO, they should be a fairly simple species to encourage to breed captively given the right setting (a huge system that could be set up by a distributor), and then it would be okay to introduce them into the trade, but if you look at success rates with cat and banded sharks, I'll pretty much guarentee you that it's not good. Also, the fact that they are often sold for $15-$50 contributes to a very high mortality rate.

Triakis semifasciatus- Leopard Shark- Commonly imported as babies during pup season here in California.- Swim a lot
Although this shark does swim a lot, it also rests a lot on the bottom. The myth that the shark will drown if it stops swimming is not true, and this species can swim or sit with no ill effects. However, one thing that is seldom taken into account (and this is evident by the settings you see leopard sharks in and the tankmates they share) is that they are a cold water species. They are most often caught in the pacific northwest, and like temperatures below that of the normal fish in our hobby. They also grow to quite large sizes, and if kept in too small an environment, or one in which they are constantly bumping their heads, they will begin to develop misshapen noses and spines, and this is not a pretty sight. I think that the appeal of having a "real shark" in your tank is often too much for hobbyists to resist, and who mix them with large angels and other tropical species, contributing to a deterioration in their health. If you have a large enough system (1000 plus gallons with no corners or sharp angles), go ahead and try them out, they are very beautiful, and are easily trained, but if you don't you're only torturing them. I think the fact that they are so often available in the trade has made them one of the least successful species in the business, as you can often get them for $100-$150 around here.

Heterodontus portusjacksoni- Port Jackson Shark- mainly lays around
Heterodontus francisci- Horned shark- Mainly lays around

Very interesting sharks with which I have no experience. Neutral on their importation as I cannot make an educated or even experienced opinion.

Eucrossorhinus dasypogon- Wobbygong Shark- mainly lays around
A voracious eater, and grows very very very large! I think this is one of the sharks that deserves to be left where it is. I have to admit, I had one for years, until it ate some bad fish from a grocery store and died, but I blame myself for being unable to provide what it needed. When it passed, it was 3 feet long, and probably should have been much longer. What many don't know is that the wobbegong shark reaches lengths of 8-10', and it's mouth, which is filled with tons of tiny gripping teeth versus the tearing teath of other sharks, goes pretty much from one side of it's body to the other. Whereas a leopard shark has a somewhat squared mouth that is suited towards crushing things, the wobbegongs mouth is like a huge vacuum, and it uses its mouth to swallow things up. This makes this shark unsuitable for most tank mates, as it will inevitably try and eat them. I don't think this shark, despite the fact that it is almost totally sedentary, should ever be imported. Stores will sell them, and won't know the first thing about their habits.

Ginglymostoma cirratum- Nurse shark- People importing this have a one way ticket to hell, where they will live in a 3'x3' cube for all eternity
Another shark that grows very very large, 8-10'. Something people don't understand about nurse sharks is that they are not the gentle creatures that they seem to be, peacefully sitting around and doing nothing all day, inviting divers to play with them. They instead, are very unpredictable, and are incredibly strong. Nurse sharks can and will grab your arm if you let them, and they have very powerful suction created by their smaller mouths. I liken their abilities to do harm with their mouths to a pump that does not have a covered intake in your tank. If a fish comes close enough, it will get sucked in, and if it doesn't fit, it'll be broken in half and have holes torn in them. IME, nurse sharks are inappropriate tank mates for any fish, especially any sort of ray or skate, any type of shark that starts small enough to fit into its mouth, any crustaceans of any sort, and generally speaking, anything else that you would want to have in your system. They are totally unsuitable for importation, and the fact is, they are commonplace in our trade. The appeal that they have from being cheap (usually less than $100 around here) and starting out small is quickly overtaken by the fact that they are dangerous and don't like companionship from other animals. A few examples of my experiences with them (back in the days of uneducated sellers of these sharks) - a nurse shark that ate a blue dot stingray, since rays are one of their favorite foods. They push the rays down onto the bottom and basically suck them into their mouths breaking their large bodies on the way in, and sometimes simply sucking out their guts. This same shark also ate a lionfish that was half it's size, but twice as broad as it, and 2 leopard sharks and a couple of eels. Get the point?

epaulette sharks
These sharks are very long and skinny, and don't really swim so much as walk. They are fairly docile and don't grow very large, but it's difficult for us to provide the appropriate home for them. I think that they make a more practical species for importation due to the fact that they walk versus swim, but with lower prices and a lot of misinformation on them, they should be reserved for specialists.

blacktip/whitetip reef sharks
Blacktips - huge and need a lot of swimming room, and are also sharks that really like to punch it into high gears and zip away. They should never be sold in the aquarium trade
Whitetips - more like a mobile nurse shark, but again, something that should never make it into the aquarium trade.

lemon shark
Who's the idiot who decided these aggressive sharks should ever be available to hobbyists?

smooth hound shark
Don't know much about them, but they are active swimmers and I think they grow quite large, so probably (again uneducated and inexperienced opinion) should not be sold.

bonnet head shark
I have to admit, I've wanted one for years. They grow to a maximum 4' length, and start out at less than 1'. They are very agile swimmers, and are good at avoiding things like walls that other sharks will swim directly into. The drawback, even if your system is large enough, is that they are very social animals, and use body language to speak to each other, often travelling in large schools. They also ship extremely poorly. Again, though, I have to admit that I'd love to get my hands on a few of them. But, they really should be banned.

Tura lymma- Blue Spot Ray- Extremely common
Extremely sensitive. Should not be sold, except by very specialized dealers. More often than not, they are readily available, and also, are more often than not already dying in the vendors tank. If you're lucky and do things right, they are wonderful pets, and are extremely tame in a short period of time, but again, their sensitivity makes them less than ideal, and a dead blue dot is a painful sight.

cine brasiliensis- Brazilan Ray
No experience.

electric rays
why would you keep a fish that can shock the crap out of you like this one can? I caught one the size of my thumb when I was in Cancun years and years ago, and it shocked me when I released it (I was very young). If it had been bigger, I'm sure I could have been hurt by it, so why tempt fate in captivity?

bat ray
I had these from a place that told me they came in very small, but they lied. They grow up to a wingspan of 6' and 200 lbs for a female, and are great at leaping out of the water, so I can't imagine you could ever house one successfully.

I've expressed a lot of opinions on a lot of species here, and the bottom line is that I don't have a single one of them alive at this time. With sharks, despite how hardy some can be such as the nurse or wobbegong, there are an equal number of them that are too sensitive to exist in the worlds we can provide them. Cheap sharks encourage unknowledgable people to purchase them, and unscrupulous retailers are ignorant of their needs and pass that along to the consumer. Can you believe that I was told before that I should feed my banded cat shark nightcrawlers from the bait shop?

Conservation of sharks and rays begins with educated people dealing with them from day one. Responsible shark and ray keeping begins with educated people passing along their knowledge to the consumer, who will ultimately decide the health and longevity of a species in that hobbyists care.

Do I consider myself an expert? Far from it. But, I do consider myself one of the more educated hobbyists when it comes to sharks and rays as I have kept many of them, and learned a lot about them in keeping them.

Education = Conservation

Don't know how on point my post is, but I hope it helps people to determine whether these species should be USL or not.

By the way, a possible definition for large is whether or not the fish will be 100' away from you at the drop of a dime or not when it was just in front of you. By this definition, a black tip would be too big because if it got startled, it could easily be out of sight before you had a chance to realize it. Too large could also be defined as how you would fare with it if you were jammed into it's tank (if it got angry, would it attack you?). By this token, a wobbegong or a nurse shark would be too big.

[ January 10, 2002: Message edited by: davelin315 ]</p>
 

Tim Tessier

Active Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Blacktip sharks don't ship well either as they are pelagic.

Before we put a fish on the list as being to big for an aquarium we should consider whether it is normally imported large or has a large maximum size in the wild and/or does not grow too large in an aquarium. Example. I had a Sailfin tang(Z. veliferum) for 10 years in my 90g reef. It was 1.5" long when purchased and grew to 5" after 10 years. I recently imported a sailfin from the Solomons and it was 7". I definitely would not consider putting a fish that size in a 90g. My point is that we should find out which species will grow to a large size in captivity and which will only grow to a certain size based on the aquarium size they are in. btw Burgess lists that they grow to 40cm(16inches).

I am presently watching my Purple tang in my 20gallon reef. It's grown from 1" to 1.25" in 2 months. Perhaps it will outgrow it's home and I'll have to set up that 500g I've been dreaming about.
icon_wink.gif


Cheers,
Tim
 

MaryHM

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Maybe since sharks and rays are such a diverse group (some swim, some don't, some get huge, some don't) we should list what IS suitable for import instead of what isn't. I think the what isn't list would be pretty long and complicated. However, there are probably about 5 species that are suitable. What do you all think? And again, the only criteria we are looking at is size or obligate feeder.
 

Anemone

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Mary,

I think that is a perfect idea. Although I haven't kept any sharks or rays (so I won't contribute to the list), from my reading, I agree that there are only a few species that stay small enough or have long-term survivability in hobbyist-level tanks to qualify for inclusion on the list.

Kevin
 

Diver1

Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I'll add a bit of information about the shark and ray species that we have in our part of the world - the more suitable ones we do collect and export to the U.S.

Port Jackson Shark - info already posted by others above.
Varied Catshark - Parascyllium variolatum - max length about 3 feet - adapts to aquarium conditions without a lot of fuss.
Gulf Catshark - Asymbolus vincenti - max length 2 feet, also adapts readily.
Dark Spotted Catshark - Asymbolus analis - max length 3 feet, adapts readily
Spotted Wobbegong - Orectolobus maculatus - max length 10 feet - forget it, have scared the bejeesus out of me when collecting other fish on several occasions
icon_smile.gif
Occasionally get asked to supply large specimens to public aquariums - catching these is a fun job - not!
Angelshark - Squatina australis - max length 5 feet - lives on bottom - needs large open sandy areas in aquarium, but otherwise is fairly easy to care for, but requires a tank that is both long and wide due to it's width.
Great White Shark - I spend all my days trying to avoid these, besides obviously not being suitable, they are a protected species down here.
Western Shovelnose Ray - Aptychotrema vincentiana - max length 3 feet - fairly good in an aquarium, if buying a specimen inspect the snout carefully for damage from inproper handling.
Southern Fiddler Ray - Trygonorrhina guarina - sounds like some horrible disease
icon_smile.gif
- max 4 feet, fairly easy to get feeding, just watch out for powerful sweeps of the tail.
Thornback Skate - Raja lemprieri - max under 2 feet - easy to keep.
Sparsely Spotted Stingaree - Urolophus paucimaculatus - just over a foot max - can be a fussy eater when first introduced - try open bivalve's eg pippies or similar
Spotted Stingaree - Urolophus gigas - max just over two feet - care is straightforward.
Banded Stingaree - Urlophus cruciatus - just under 2 feet - again fairly easy to care for.
Southern Eagle Ray - Myliobatis australis - max 4 feet - requires a very large aquarium, not only because of it's potential 5 feet wingspan, but also because it does best in groups.
Elephant Fish - Callorhichus milii - max 4 feet - does not acclimate well to anything but oceanarium-sized housing.

Hope this helps, any questions just ask away, and if someone who knows more about computers can make the species names bold that would be great.

Kent
 

Bubafat

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I have to disagree with SPC here on the Scorpion fish. I was unfortunate enough to be stung by one of these wonderful creatures this summer at my LFS i worked at, hurt like HELL. Hurt more then a lion fish spine which i've gotten a few times, but ran it under hot water and waited 2 days and my hand was its normal size and color thankfully. I think they hurt and ya, if you're allergic to them or small or elderly it could kill you but so could a lionfish.

I still don't see the appeal of sharks though. I think they must be owned by men who are, how do you say it...overcompensating.

Buba
 

sMARTY

Experienced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
As for the size issue, can you do it in levels?
For Example:
Level Nano would be suitable for tanks under 30Gal
Level 0 would be suitable for tanks over 30 Gal
Level 1 would be suitable for tanks over 100Gal
Level 2 would be suitable for tanks over 200Gal
Level 3 would be suitable for tanks over 300Gal
Level 4 would be suitable for tanks over 500Gal
Level 5 would be suitable for tanks over 1000Gal
Level 6 would be suitable for tanks ober 5000Gal
Level 7 Not able to be kept in captivity successfully

Simply adding a Level to each animal on the list, would keep you from having to stuff every animal into one of two categories. In the example above, being a level one animal would also, by default,Make it a level 2,3,4,5 and 6. This gives you the ability to be a little flexible, while still looking out for the animals well being. This quantifies Large animal in a way that you can't by saying either OK or Too Big.
 

MandarinFish

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
How can you respond to an LFS that keeps numerous rays in a tiny tank?

I made several requests they move a ray into a larger tank.

Their response?

They added another ray to the tiny tank!!!!

What, if anything, can I do?
 

MaryHM

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
smarty- That idea will work well when we do the list for the hobbyists. But since this is an importation list, there's no way to determine what size tank an imported fish would be going in to.

Like I said earlier, I think the sharks/rays should be a "These CAN be imported list" instead of a can't. So here are my candidates for the "can" list:


Banded & Cat Sharks- Chiloscyllium sp., Parascyllium sp., Asymbolus sp.
Epaulette Sharks (I'll have to get the species later)
All rays that do not exceed 2' in length.

We still need information on Port Jackson and Horned sharks...anyone??
 

Tim Tessier

Active Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Hi Naesco,

My Purple tang is 1.25 inches long, it would fit on a toonie, and swims around in my twenty gallon tank, for the time being.

The seven inch Sailfin is in a five thousand gallon tank in Calgary.

Cheers,
Tim
 

MaryHM

Advanced Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Well, it's been a couple of days and no response, so I'll assume that everyone is ok with what I said. I'll update the USL.
 

mlidster

New Reefer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
According to Scott Michael's new Aquarium Sharks and Rays, the Japanese Wobbegong (Orectolobus japonicus) grows to a known maximum length of 40"... about the size of the the common Bamboo Sharks.

Other "small" (under 40" known maximum length)shark species listed include:

Marbled Catshark (Atelomycterus macleayi)
Coral Catshark (Atelomycterus marmoratus)
Swell (Cephaloscyllium ventriosum)
Gray Bamboo (Chiloscyllium griseum)
Arabiam Bamboo (Chiloscyllium arabicum)
Ward's Wobbegong (Orectolobus wardi)
White Spot Bamboo (Chiloscyllium plagiosum)
Brown Band Bamboo (Chiloscyllium punctatum)
Eqaulette (Hemiscyllium ocellatum)
Rusty Carpet (Parascyllium ferrugineum)
Varied Carpet/Cat (Parascyllium variolatum)
Bluegray Carpet (Brachaelurus colcloughi)
Blind (Brachaelurus waddi)


Suitable, but rarely seen in our industry:
(If we're going to make a list of what is suitable for aquaria, I think these should be included. Honestly, I didn't realize there were sharks that stayed as small as some of these... these seem to be the ones we should try to import)

Hasselt's Bamboo (Chiloscyllium hasselti)23"
Indian Bamboo (Chiloscyllium indicum) 25"
Freycinet's Epaulette (Hemiscyllium freycineti)18"
Hallstrom's Epaulette (Hemiscyllium hallstromi)30"
Hooded Epaulette (Hemiscyllium sgrahani) 29"
Speckled Epaulette (Hemiscyllium trispeculare31
Aussie Spotted Cat (Asymbolus analis) 24"
Gulf Cat (Asymbolus vincenti) 22"
Blackspotted Cat (Aulohalaelurus labiosus)26"
Lined Cat (Halaelurus lineatus) 22"
Tiger Cat (Halaelurus natalensis) 18"
Puffadder ShyShark (Haploblepharus edwardsii)23
Brown Puffadder (Haploblepharus fuscus) 28"
Dark Shyshark (Haploblepharus pictus) 22"
Pyjama Cat (Poroderma africanum) 39"
Leopard Cat (Poroderma pantherinum) 33"
Cloudy Cat (Scyliorhinus torazame) 19"

These are the rays that Scott recommends for beginners with smaller aquaria:

Cortez Round (Urobatis maculatus) 17"
Round (Urobatis halleri) 22"
Bullseye (Urobatis concentricus) 24.4"
Yellow (Urobatis jamaicensis) 26.1"
Buespotted* (Dasyatis kuhlii) 26.1"
Bluntnose (Dasyatis sayi) 30.4" (disk width)

Other rays under 40":

Thornback (Platyrhinoidis triseriata) 35.5"
Red Sea Torpedo/
Leopard Torpedo/
Panther Torpedo (Torpedo panthera) 40"
Atlan.Guitarfish(Rhinobatos lentiginosus) 30"
Shortnosed G'fish(Zapteryx brevirostris) 35.1"
Banded G'fish (Zapteryx exasperata) 27"


* Not to be mistaken for the more common and considerably less hardy, Bluespotted Robontail (Taeniura lymma)

Food for thought.

Morgan
 

Sponsor Reefs

We're a FREE website, and we exist because of hobbyists like YOU who help us run this community.

Click here to sponsor $10:


Top