Proactive agenda for making it happen

[Jaime Baquero]

Fred,

You are right, after many attempts we're getting to the point that we can demonstrate that the trade of marine ornamental fish and invertebrates in the Philippines is not a sustainable activity. The situation in Indonesia is even worse. Probably, marine aquarium hobbyists will have to learn to have aquariums with inhabitatnts coming from other places where the trade is sustainable. Captivity bred is another alternative.

 

[dizzy]

Jaime,
Has the human population stablized in the Philippines or is it still increasing. If the population continues to increase sustainability of anything will be difficult. I believe I can understand your frustrations, but I do not believe Steve is the enemy you seem to think. We love freedom of speech in this country and while painful at times, airing dirty laundry in public has the desired effect of getting the stench out.

 

[DBM]

Jaime,

You're right, about me not doing a shipment with the PMP. My comments about being "obscene" DOA s are based on the the fact the person manning the phones for the PMP told me the DOA rate is "30%, but we're working on bringing it down". Is 30% obscene? If you were on this end of the business, you would say yes. I've got nothing to gain by posting these numbers, just thought it was important to show there was probably more than one reason the PMP failed.

Doug

 

[Anonymous]

Jamie- your taking this FAR to personal. No one was attacking OVI before you got defensive, or you for that matter. You just assumed OVI was being lumped in, ASSUMED. The issue @ hand in a very emotional one for people, the causing of death and destruction, for greed, so you're defensiveness is forgivin. But as a figure head of a group, you also need to watch what you say. Caring on like you are, is actually making OVI look bad, taking it personal and responding such. Your opinion is highly respected, please don't tarnish that, we(the world) need all the help we can get.

Steve's been involved with this issue since, 83, as far as I can gather from his FAMA series, read them yet :wink: ? He's watched while NGO's made there home base in nice cozy offices in HI and Manila while sending incompetent city folk to deal with villagers/fisher folk, bought vessals (how much did SS IMA cost?), made piles and piles of paper promises, brought in major salaries(Peter, I know you spend alot of your own cash on your involvement in the issue, I think thats shows your conviction to the issue(I'd love to be your phone company)) and did very little for the cause except paperize it. He had the net trainings wired, was on the way, and Haribon dropped the ball, kicked it under the bed, and said they couldn't find it.

Typical example of NGO's failling the issue, MAC in all its glory and knowledge, couldn't send even 1 person to MACNA to explain the major part of their program to the consumer(whom they need to make they're program work), net training. They sent out their secretary I think. She had push net (didn't know its purpose, FIREFISH net, made in PI, with PI materail!!!), a barrier net and I can't recall if she even brought a hand net, I don't think so though (MAC doesn't believe the divers need that size netting, according to their x-head trainer who's requests for it fell on deaf ears, as did Haribon). She had pretty pictures, knew the subject of reef destruction and MACS paper ideas, but she had very very little working knowledge of the subject. I listened as question after question was directed to others (non-MAC). She's lucky Steve Robinson was there, it almost looked like Steve was with MAC 8O .

We NEVER promised to collectors more money from using nets

You said they're MAC divers now, right? MAC promised them more money, doesn't that go against what your trying to teach them? Is OVI ok with that, being that'll most likely cause even more backsliding, pushing your total of converts down? Thats counter productive of you're program, right? I'd be mad, if I trained some one to do some thing correct without bringing up money as the incentive, than some one else says, "yah, but do it for the money". Money isn't paid, divers go back to dope. OVI ending up being one of the many with egg on its face(not by OVI's training/fault, but as a victem of association(MAC)). Divers say OVI/MAC lied, stop believing in other NGO's and OVI's other programs(failure to produce desired effects). Cyanide wins again. Good people, with good ideas, lose(OVI).

Gresham

 

[Jaime Baquero]

GreshamH, Steve and all,

I apologize, it is true, I accept I was taking this matter too personal. OVI is an honest NGO with good reputation and I do not want to tarnish that.
Steve, I am sorry.

Lets work together.

jaime

 

[PeterIMA]

Reply to Gresham (who happens to work for Steve Robinson),

I am rather tired of Steve Robinson (and now you) attacking IMA. Unfortunately, you know even less than the MAC people you just attacked. Strange, since Steve Robinson and Mike King now think they will be doing net-training for the MAC. What strange bedfellows ***Remainder of Post deleted for being too personal***

Peter Rubec

 

[MaryHM]

I am the moderator of this board, but usually I don't have to do too much. Lately though some of the people here are getting out of hand. I'm not going to put up with personal attacks. Act like the professional, grown men you are. When you do otherwise you look like a bunch of fools.

Sincerely, your increasingly frustrated moderator,
Mary

 

[Tim Tessier]

I am the moderator of this board, but usually I don't have to do too much.

Cmmon Mary, I know how much time you really spend on this board :wink:

Hi Doug,

PMP was a little before my time. I did import from AMRI for a couple years. Sometimes good shipments ... sometimes bad ... kinda typical for this industry. Did have a lot of problems with parasites, AMRI was not using copper and neither was I, we were trying the "organic" approach using ozone and no drugs.

Marivi's fish are definitely better, she feeds them. As far as availability, the "net caught only" exporters are definitely at a disadvantage. Marivi does occasionally get the good stuff, clown triggers, blueface, emporer, blue tang etc in limited numbers. Plus a lot of the supposedly difficult fish such as Moorish Idols, Baroness Butterfly, Regal Angels will all eat.

Hi Jaime,
I agree with you completely that a wholistic approach is the only way to secure serious lasting reform/change.

Hi Steve,
I do not know what happened in the Philippines while you were there. I do know that CIDA happens to like projects that help women/children and create sustainable livelihoods for the benefactors. Perhaps you were too efficient in your training efforts and the budgeted funds were too soon exhausted, hence no more money for nets. Just a shot in the dark.

Hi Jaime, Peter and Steve,

We love freedom of speech in this country

Mitch is right to a point but it does not help to have a lot of the respected people in the reform movement shooting each other in the feet. Then you can't get your fins on and the guy with the bottle catches all the fish. :wink:

Cheers,
Tim

 

[dizzy]

Tim,
Besides the obvious entertainment value, it is also healthy to take a critical look at some of the accomplishments of the NGOs. If all we ever get to read is the pro-NGO spin released by the various competing factions themselves, one would always get the impression that all is fine and dandy.
Since NGOs like the MAC like to operate in secret, and they apparently fail to see the errors of their ways (as evidenced by the Newsletters), it is beneficial to have outside sources point them out. I am very thankful that there is a forum that allow this type of free speech.

 

[Tim Tessier]

Hi Mitch,

I worked for an NGO for 5 years and I have heard of some of the scams/poor use of funds by other members of the NGO community. I remember one time someone sent a container(40' ocean) of large cup size bras to SE Asia. The villagers used them for rice bowls. :lol: Or the time someone sent condoms to a famine area. :lol:

The NGO I worked for is highly respected in North America and overseas in the developing nations. They operate on a 8% admin percentage. Their books are audited yearly by a certified auditor from a large accounting firm. Everything is squeaky clean because they use peoples donations, foundation grants and CIDA grants to fund the projects. I have seen first hand the quality of the work they have done in Laos and Vietnam. My wife has seen their work in the Philippines and Cambodia. We were both highly impressed and we paid for our trips, not them. I gave them 25% of my net profit last year because I know they yield results.

I would like to see some external audits of some of the NGO's in this industry.

Sorry, this was slightly OT.

Cheers,
Tim

 

[Anonymous]

(who happens to work for Steve Robinson),

I have NEVER tried to hide this fact, many of my posts even include it in the sig, when I'm talking from Cortez Marine. My position their allows me contact with all sorts of emails, phone conversations, people and published information. I talk daily about this issue.

I also worked at Eco-Vitality, you failled to mention that. I've worked for two different wholesalers selling net caught only, not many, can say that. My life is an open book, what chapter would you like to read. While being so open, lets see those NGO's total accounting vs. their performance. IF any of this is hidden, some thing wrong/bad is going on. Mac, IMA, any NGO, please step forward, and show us what you've done and spent the cash on. It will help to dispell any disbelief I, or, any one else has.

This(marine trade) is my hobby, job, source of income and MY LIFE. I have strong opinions about things that effect any of the those. I don't need ANYBODY to tell me what to think, I do it for myself. As a diver, a son of E.S. Major, brother of a DVM, grandson of a commercial fisherman/tree farmer, grandson of dog breeder/ kennel owner, and some one who's seen what man has done to this planet, I don't need some one to tell me this stinks, I can smell it for myself. Animals, the ocean, and the envirnoment are my familys life, and mine. I FRICKEN LOVE THIS EARTH, ESPECIALLY THE OCEAN.

Its about performance. You perform, you have something to show, you don't, the evidance shows you didn't do a thing. Again, show us the accounting vs performance, than its an open book, for all to read. If they've performed, it'll show, and I, and every one else, will see that.

 

[PeterIMA]

Reply to Gresham, Robinson, Tessier, and Middlebrook.

First, I have to agree to some extent with Mary Middlebrook. We (the reformists) should not be bickering with each other, when the real enemy is the exporters and some importers who exploit the collectors to the detriment of the coral reefs. I (like Gresham and I am sure others) love the ocean and want to protect/conserve its resources for the benefit of local people, the marine hobby, and aquarium trade.

On the other hand, I cannot quietly allow anyone to malign an NGO like IMA and OVI without providing some defense. First or all, please let me know whether you are an NGO or with the trade. According to Mary Middlebrook (posting earlier today) it is OK to defame the reputation of an NGO but not an individual or a private company. My opinion is it is perfectly legal for an NGO to sue anyone or any organization guilty of libel. Those persons, companies, or NGOs who use loaded words like "Crimes Against Humanity" or "Fraud" take note. I consider those words potentially to be libelous. Those making the libelous allegations need to be able to prove their accusations in court.

As far as IMA's financial conduct, the organization follows strict accounting procedures required by US-AID. Dr. Vaughan Pratt (President [email protected]) can provide accounting information and/or annual reports concerning our programs. Also, Dr. Charles Barber (Vice [email protected]) is an environmental lawyer who can answer questions.

Instead of maligning IMA or OVI why not contact the organization with a formal request for information? Isn't that more fair than maligning the NGOs doing the field work?

Sincerely,
Peter Rubec, Ph.D.

 

[MaryHM]

Ok. If we want to start talking about NGO's sueing for libel then we'll just remove this entire forum and then there won't be a problem. Of course then there will be no where else where such a discussion takes place, but I guess that's preferable to pissing off some NGO. It's absolutely ridiculous for you to even suggest such a thing Peter, especially after everything you have said against MAC. Patience....is.....waning......

 

[PeterIMA]

Mary, Yes, Mary I accused the MAC of "Greenwashing" and "Fraud". I believe that I can substantiate these claims in court. So, if the MAC wants to sue me, I am ready to defend my assertions. Thats the difference.

I am not against you or other reformists who believe in the cause. The goals are a sustainable trade and a sustainable hobby with organisms collected in a sustainable manner. I just don't think that bashing NGOs is necessary for us to achieve this.

PS: Congratulations on an excellent posting on your website about Cyanide and the many URLs on the topic. I assume you wrote it. Please put the author's name above the article.

Peter Rubec

 

[Tim Tessier]

Hi Peter,

As far as IMA's financial conduct, the organization follows strict accounting procedures required by US-AID. Dr. Vaughan Pratt (President [email protected]) can provide accounting information and/or annual reports concerning our programs. Also, Dr. Charles Barber (Vice [email protected]) is an environmental lawyer who can answer questions.

First off I want to say that I was not questioning the IMA's integrity nor do I intend too.

An annual report is good for an overview of any organization and it is what the organization wants to say. An Audited Financial report is what the books have to say, irregardless of what the organization wants them to say. When it comes to proving complete honesty/transparency an audited financial report is needed from a Certified Auditor.

Cheers,
Tim

 

[dizzy]

Tim,
I hope the NGOs in reef conservation are held to a higher standard than most of the "charities" that solicit money in this country. I think they can keep something like 90% (or more) of the money they collect for "administrative costs". If everyone knew how little of the money they gave actually went to the cause they were giving it for, no one would give anything.

I think organizations that live off of others people's good will should have to make a full accounting to the public, of how that money was spent. I'm just curious as to what the salary of an executive director for one of the NGOs would be. Peter can you give us any insight?

 

[PeterIMA]

Dizzy,
I suggest you direct your questions to the Executive Directors of whatever NGOs you are most interested in. You could start with WWF, TNC, Greenpeace etc. I would think salaries depend somewhat on the size of the organization and must be proportionate to their budgets or expenditures. However, I don't really know.

As far as coral reef conservation expenditures, I suggest you get on the web sites for funding groups like Packard, McArthur and/or USAID to see what they provided to such organizations as WWF, TNC, MAC, IMA, WRI etc. Then ask for Audited statements to see how each organization spent those funds (coral reef conservation).

Peter Rubec

 

[dizzy]

An annual report is good for an overview of any organization and it is what the organization wants to say. An Audited Financial report is what the books have to say, irregardless of what the organization wants them to say. When it comes to proving complete honesty/transparency an audited financial report is needed from a Certified Auditor.
Tim

Tim,
An Audited Financial Report by an outside Certified Auditor might be just what the MAC needs to regain some of the confidence that has been lost in the past year or so. The MAC wants the industry to become self-sufficent in its ability to pay for the certification process. I think the MAC should have an audited financial report done and make it available to the industry. As stakeholders we have a right to know if the people who would regulate this industry are good money managers or not.

 

[clarionreef]

Hello People,
Now more than ever, the first two postings of this thread need to be restated. Training is accepted by all parties and will go forth again.
There exists a severe lack of net caught fish supply in many critical areas of the Philippines. The history of net training here has pretty much been restricted to safe, easier areas to reach. The fish supply currently flowing from these areas tend to be rather ordinary species and in excessive quantity. Firefish, barred gobies, scissortail gobies, clowns, assorted butterflies, chelmons and green mandarins comprise the constant majority of these fish supplies. The lack...ie. glaring lack of the critical, top end, cherry species forces dealers to go elsewhere , soiling their inventory with cyanide fish and diluting the achievement of dealing in some clean fish.
Since everyone wants these better fishes, there has been a tendency to turn a blind eye to how they were aquired. This has been the bone of contention and the sticking point for many reformers who want the full netcaught supply so they can be fully honest in presenting their inventories as netcaught.
Training needs to focus on the Eastern side of the country and in Mindinao to add to the list of common fishes now under production. More desireable species can all be collected by nets and can all become standard in exporters inventories if training pushes thru there. From events of the past week or so, it appears that it will.
Clown triggers, blue tangs and Blueface angels need to become netcaught and available to give credibility to the reform movement. Since they are readily available from cyanide sources, many dealers have felt no lack and therefore no need to pressure for training to secure them. Many certified fishes are such 'run of the mill' species that they never became much of a big deal, despite a number of net trainings during the past 20 years.
The pro-active agenda defined a month ago may a month old for purposes of chat but its the current focus of negotiation.
I'm not at liberty to say more at this time.
Steve Robinson
AMDA president in Manila

 

[dizzy]

I'm not at liberty to say more at this time. Steve Robinson
AMDA president in Manila

I was just wondering who is deciding when and what you are at liberty to say.