Need help with opening an online store

[dpetruescu]

Ok, after a lot of soul searching, I've decided to try to open an online store where only cyanide free and aquacultured fish are sold. The site is under construction at: http://www.sustainablereef.com. It will be an educational site as much as retail site. I'm panning to host articles, news, lots of fish husbandry information, lots of tools into choosing the right fish for the right tank etc... even species that I don't stock.

I'm still in the planning stages and I need help:

1) is there a way for me to test/detect cyanide fish?
2) is there a list of whole sellers that use only cyanide free fish?
3) I need to partner with wholesalers and try to figure out volume and cost as well as species available...

I am fairly business minded, but would like to keep with my conviction and sell only sustainable collected fish/corals. To this end, it is my belief, that working closely with wholesalers to devise a plan which includes marketing and customer education will be very important.

You guys are doing a great job trying to work with MAC, but, maybe its time to have a "big" online place that hobbyists know they're getting only cyanide free fish.

My plan is to reach the hobbyist with lots of advertising, promotions and education. Maybe if a few of us were using "Cyanide FREE" promotions everywhere, might help swayed the consumer that maybe Cyanide Free fish are worth paying for it, if retailers start loosing business because they use cyanide fish, they'll start pushing the distributors for Cyanide FREE fish.

Anyway, enough of my ranting.
David

 

[MaryHM]

Answers to your questions:

1) Nope
2) Yep. It's a short list here in the states. Me and Steve Robinson.
3) I run my own online shop for cyanide free fish. Maybe Steve would work with you.

Do you plan for this to be your sole source of income? If so, I'd think twice.

 

[dizzy]

david,
I'm not so sure you should count on Steve either. While I can't speak for him, I can say he is president of AMDA. The majority of the AMDA board does not believe that e-tailing is good for our industry. We believe it is the face to face experience that people get from the brick and motar stores that generates the interest and attract new people into the hobby. We see the discounting that is expected from the e-tailers as a threat to our members. Perhaps Steve will chime in with his own opinions.

 

[jamesw]

Mary,

How do you know your fish are cyanide free if there is no detection test? You think your fish are cyanide free, but how do you KNOW they are? You just trust your collectors, because there "is no cyanide in Fiji," right? But you don't actually have any testing or paperwork to prove it.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Cheers
James

 

[MaryHM]

I buy my Philippine fish from Marivi Laurel of Aquarium Habitat. Ferdinand Cruz has introduced the true net collectors to her, she refuses to buy anything but net caught- and she pays the collectors more for it. It's an attitude, james. She has been net caught from day 1- not one of these exporters that has been dealing cyanide fish for decades and now suddenly "sees the light" :roll: From looking at her lists and knowing which fish are cyanide targets and which aren't, I can also tell. Any other supplier has 50 clown triggers. If she has 2 it's a banner week. Any other supplier has every tang under the sun in multiply quantities. My small shop can buy all of hers and still need more. Any other supplier has all of the big angels. She might have 1 adult blue face and 2 adult imperators. Basically, it boils down to attitude. She strives to deal only with net caught and refuses to buy "iffy" fish. She refuses to mix fish to the detriment of her own financial stability. It's extremely hard for her to compete with the big PTFEA exporters, some of whom carry their requiste mandarins and copperbands from MAC and then proceed to mix in tons of cyanide fish. Basically, I know the people involved. I trust the people involved because of their attitudes. Paperwork doesn't mean diddly. The test is necessary for the exporters who have the attitude that MAC is just a way to make their buyers feel more confident- "Hey, it's not just me saying everything is net caught anymore, looky here I have a pretty sticker to prove it now!". Many in this industry look at MAC as a joke- a way to validate their animals while continuing the same practice. It's these people who need to be tested regularly- if for no other reason than to scare them into submission. A test will never prove that all fish are cyanide free, but will serve as a deterent if the testing is conducted properly (randomly and on cyanide target species) and strictly enforced.

 

[jamesw]

So Mary,

You get your fish and call them cyanide free based on trust but you demand that MAC's cyanide free fish are tested? That's not fair!

Cheers
James

 

[dpetruescu]

While I do agree that face to face has its advantages, I also believe E-Commerce has its place also. Some people don't have good LFS close buy, or are too busy to go to different stores, wait to talk to people, and then not have the selection. One can have great support and customer service online and through the phone. But I understand where they're coming from and I don't mind at all. Everybody makes their own business decisions.

Is there a test "kit" I can buy, or a lab that I can send fish to be tested at?

So, where does this leave me? Are there other collectors that offer cyanide free fish? Anybody else I can call?

 

[JennM]

Call any wholesaler in LA - they will swear on a stack of Bibles that all of their fish are Net-Caught - why would they say anything else? Some are, some aren't but in facilities that deal in both, it's a crap shoot on a good day.

If you're looking for unlimited selection AND net-caught - you're not being realistic. Read Mary's post - on a good week Marivi might have 2 clown triggers - one or two Imperators - and etc., one often has to be patient for certain species because they are not as easily caught in nets - and are often caught with chemicals.

James - if you doubt what Mary says, come and take a look at my mortality stats before I made my changes, and since - doesn't take a genius with a sticker to know where we stand - better collection practices, better holding practices and better shipping practices. All I can say is, NIGHT AND DAY.

dpetruescu - etail will never be a substitute for retail. Can you test the customers' water to make sure it's suitable before they take a fish home? Can you make a house call if they have a problem? How do you even know that the buyer HAS a tank that's suitable for the creature you are shipping to them? I solve this one by asking all new customers to bring me a water sample for testing before they can take anything home - most people appreciate the extra care. Customer service over the phone is a poor substitute for looking into somebody's eye when they boast about their tank, or share their worst horror story. It's all well and good to want to get the ethically caught fishes, but if they aren't (necessarily) ethically sold, what's the point? Sending the fish through yet another shipping process - once it's been collected, held, packed, shipped, unpacked, held, packed again, shipped again to the retailer, and you would want to pack and ship again, versus a short trip home from the LFS in a bag, if that specimen ended up at a retailer... at least most of the big online sellers are having stuff shipped directly from a wholesaler - saving a step versus what you are proposing.

There are a few hobbyists who don't have a store nearby, that's true, but the majority of people who enter the hobby didn't do so because they saw a catchy website - they walked into a bricks and mortar store and bought a tank, and accessories - so if the store wasn't within reasonable distance, they wouldn't have bothered. Some shop online for exotic stuff their local doesn't carry - but perhaps they never asked their local if they could bring it in?

Many wholesalers won't sell to you unless you have a bricks and mortar store - lest they piss off their retail customers. Many retailers won't buy from wholesalers who sell direct to hobbyists or to home-based online shops or home based maintenance businesses.

I'm obviously biased toward retailers, so please don't take my apparent negativity personally - I'm sure you have honest intentions, but if you are going to do this, have a solid business plan in place - and don't forget to examine all of the dot-com etailers that have gone bust in the last 5 years - and look at why. Those who didn't go bust, got swallowed up by the bigger players, and so on. It's a tough business, think it through.

Respectfully,

Jenn

 

[MaryHM]

You get your fish and call them cyanide free based on trust but you demand that MAC's cyanide free fish are tested? That's not fair!

James, you're missing the obvious here. I'm not running an international certification program that is claiming to reform the industry. One does not base such a program on trust. Too many factors involved, one of which is a industry full of companies who have been lying about the cyanide issue for years.

 

[dpetruescu]

JennM

I appreciate you taking the time in discussing this and I appreciate the input. I think there are two different customers:

1) walk-ins. These customers are just starting out, need handholding...
2) Aquarium geeks. These customers have had aquariums for a long time (I would not appreciate it if you would ask me for a water sample before I buy, mainly because I know what I'm doing), are looking for value and selection.

My business plan:
I should not say too much, but there is no reason to cater to both. Have both a retail brick and mortar and e-commerce. Add to it services as fish sitting and cleaning contract among other things...

I do not plan to do this in the Bay Area due to cost. So my place of business will have a limited customer walk-in base.

Second, it doesn't take long for customers to tell if your selling quality fish online OR retail. I believe both can be very successful.

Two examples:
a) Wall-Mart. I do not go to their stores because they are very messy and the lines are too long. But, when I want to buy a vacuum or something, I always check their website first, and if the price is right, I order online and have it shipped.

b) Amazon. Good customer support, for what they are doing, great selection, no store hours (hence you can browse/buy anytime).

Both very successful.

To tell you the truth, I love this discussion. It helps crystallize my business plan, helps me see things more clearly.

Again, I appreciate everybody's feedback.

 

[JennM]

JennM
2) Aquarium geeks. These customers have had aquariums for a long time (I would not appreciate it if you would ask me for a water sample before I buy, mainly because I know what I'm doing), are looking for value and selection.

Interesting. I was an "Aquarium Geek" long before I became an aquarium retailer, and I worked for another retailer while practicing my Geekdom in between. For me, the mark of a good store was one that asked me for a water sample and asked a few questions BEFORE they'd sell me something, the first time I came in. Shows that they care. I've met lots of people who "know what they are doing" that had nitrates out the wazoo, phosphates off the scale and other params out of whack, because they knew what they were doing and never bothered to test -- but I digress... those would be the same people to insist on a replacement fish if their new aquisition dropped dead when it hit their septic water... And for what it's worth, I've never had anybody storm out all offended because I politely requested that for our mutual benefit, and for the safety of the animal they were considering purchasing, that they bring in a water sample, and I'll be happy to mark the subject you want, "sold". In fact, I've had nothing but good reaction to that.

"Serious" hobbyists like to watch the fish they are thinking about buying - sometimes for a long time - they want to see its behavior with its tankmates, inspect it for wounds or parasites, they even want to see it eat - I would never buy a fish I didn't see eat, and now I voluntarily feed specimens in front of the prospective buyer - that way if the new aquisition takes a day or three to settle into its new digs, at least the buyer knows when its last meal was.

Sometimes even seasoned hobbyists are stumped by something - I will hold any hand - be it newbie or somebody with 20 years more experience than I have - if they run into a problem - one nice thing about a casual retail environment is that on a Saturday, people hang out and shoot the breeze - lots of info is shared, and I learn much listening to others' experiences and sharing mine...

What happens if your online customer buys something, and unbenounced to him, it just doesn't get along with his existing residents? Not like he can bring it back? What's he to do? I just love it when somebody calls to ask if they can trade in X .. "Won't they take it back where you bought it from?" "Ummm I bought it online..." Uh huh...(that applies to both livestock AND dry goods - some folks have lots of nerve!) What about disease and treatment? Of course every "serious" hobbyist has a quarantine tank (NOT!).

You are also assuming that your online customers are all going to be "Aquarium geeks who know what they are doing"... are you prepared to offer a help line? You can spend hours discussing issues with people - time is money. There are a good number of newbies out there who come online to learn (and kudos to them for that...) and see banner ads for this online store or that one, and order up a storm, and they have no idea what they are doing. Go to any General Reef Discussion board and read a while - inevitably you will find posts about incompatiblity, inappropriate species in inappropriate tanks.... ad infinitum.

Do yourself a favour, don't limit your walk-ins -- make sure your location is properly zoned and you are properly licenced, because you'll probably find that walk ins are your bread and butter.

Retail isn't perfect - don't get me wrong - but when dealing with living things, IMO it's best to do business face to face. This eliminates many of the pitfalls.

JMHO as always...

Jenn

 

[dpetruescu]

Jenn,

Points well taken. In the end, it's all about ballance. Maybe I'm just a computer geek that prefers buying some things online rather than in a store, and that's fine. I believe we all try to do the best we can. You obviously have a lot of experience in a brick and mortar market place, I on the other hand have had some rather good experience in e-commerce.

It all comes down to understanding your market and what that market wants, then cater to that market.

Be it online or brick and mortar unless you provide good service and good quality you'll be in trouble. You obviously provide that for your customers otherwise you would not be successfull. I have to do the same thing for my online customers. They might have different needs and requirements. My job is to identify those needs and requirements and strive to exceed their expectaisions.

I can offer almost the same things online as in regular retail:

- one on one with customers - they'll be able to call or do online chat. I know it's not the same thing but it is better then nothing.
- healty fish - I'll quarantine (longer then a few of days) and offer guarantee on my fish (again longer then most online places).
- selection - hopefully great sellection at great prices.
- customer service - can be as great as in regular retail. As some of the board's sponsors have demonstrated, this can and needs to be top notch.

Sure I won't be able to offer some of the things regular stores offer, and there are some drawbacks. But the same customers that buy the wrong fish for their tank, could have done so at a brick and mortar retailer that did not care what customers wanted, it doesn't have to be e-tailers only.

"Serious" hobbyists like to watch the fish they are thinking about buying - sometimes for a long time - they want to see its behavior with its tankmates, inspect it for wounds or parasites, they even want to see it eat - I would never buy a fish I didn't see eat, and now I voluntarily feed specimens in front of the prospective buyer - that way if the new aquisition takes a day or three to settle into its new digs, at least the buyer knows when its last meal was.

If I have good quality fish (I am not saying that you don't) they won't have to wory. I will not sell sick/injured fish. Customers expect clean healty fish and that's what they'll get. It only takes a few bad experiences with people buying sick fish, the word will spread and I'm out of business. That's why I'll hold myself at high standards and will not sell fish that I would not buy myself. Some of it is about trust...

 

[dpetruescu]

Jenn,

Points well taken. In the end, it's all about balance. Maybe I'm just a computer geek that prefers buying some things online rather than in a store, and that's fine. I believe we all try to do the best we can. You obviously have a lot of experience in a brick and mortar market place; I on the other hand have had some rather good experience in e-commerce.

It all comes down to understanding your market and what that market wants, and then cater to that market.

Be it online or brick and mortar unless you provide good service and good quality you'll be in trouble. You obviously provide that for your customers otherwise you would not be successful. I have to do the same thing for my online customers. They might have different needs and requirements. My job is to identify those needs and requirements and strive to exceed their expatiations.

I can offer almost the same things online as in regular retail:

- one on one with customers - they'll be able to call or do online chat. I know it's not the same thing but it is better then nothing.
- healthy fish - I'll quarantine (longer then a few of days) and offer guarantee on my fish (again longer then most online places).
- selection - hopefully great selection at great prices.
- customer service - can be as great as in regular retail. As some of the board's sponsors have demonstrated, this can and needs to be top notch.

Sure I won't be able to offer some of the things regular stores offer, and there are some drawbacks. But the same customers that buy the wrong fish for their tank could have done so at a brick and mortar retailer that did not care what customers wanted, it doesn't have to be e-tailers only.

"Serious" hobbyists like to watch the fish they are thinking about buying - sometimes for a long time - they want to see its behavior with its tank mates, inspect it for wounds or parasites, they even want to see it eat - I would never buy a fish I didn't see eat, and now I voluntarily feed specimens in front of the prospective buyer - that way if the new aquisition takes a day or three to settle into its new digs, at least the buyer knows when its last meal was.

If I have good quality fish (I am not saying that you don't) they won't have to worry. I will not sell sick/injured fish. Customers expect clean healthy fish and that's what they'll get. It only takes a few bad experiences with people buying sick fish, the word will spread and I'm out of business. That's why I'll hold myself at high standards and will not sell fish that I would not buy myself. Some of it is about trust...

 

[JennM]

Ah Utopia.... always unattainable...

The bottom line is, from my own personal POV, e-commerce is NOT condusive to industry reform. That's it in a nutshell.

I have no qualms with folks saving a dollar or two by buying dry goods or hardware online - I laugh though, you don't always save - save $2 on that bottle of calcium - $6 for shipping - so I can buy 4 more lbs of goods for the same shipping cost - so I'll get this and that to "justify" the shipping cost - and before I know it, I spent $60 plus shipping to save $2 on that bottle of calcium... did I really save? *g* I did that a few times before I came to my senses...

I got a note from Gresham - he's having password problems - here is his input to this thread:

Hello Jenn,

I tried to post a reply to your post on the etail thread, BUT, for some reason rdo will not except the password I've been using for years.

There's plenty of net-caught clown triggers and good angels, it's that they get swooped up 1st by the people with the most money, the cyanide dealers. Marivi and others are at the end of the line as far as collectors bringing fish to their door.

Gresham

 

[dpetruescu]

I have no qualms with folks saving a dollar or two by buying dry goods or hardware online - I laugh though, you don't always save - save $2 on that bottle of calcium - $6 for shipping - so I can buy 4 more lbs of goods for the same shipping cost - so I'll get this and that to "justify" the shipping cost - and before I know it, I spent $60 plus shipping to save $2 on that bottle of calcium... did I really save? *g* I did that a few times before I came to my senses...

I agree. In a lot of cases, eBay for one, that is true.

Just out of curiosity... Why is e-commerce not good for the industry? I though that you can apply same standards of doing business to both venues. You should be able to do cyanide free (Marry has) on the Internet just as well as in your store.

My big problem right now is to find a reputable wholesaler that I can give my business to. I totally agree with Mary and Steve's conflict of interest and I respect that. Back to the drawing board.

 

[JennM]

I see it as bad because I believe that reform does not end when the fish leaves the seller's premises. It continues right down to the hobbyist level, the end user - that's where the fish will live out the remainder of its days if it made it that far down the chain of custody. What's the point of all that ethical collection, handling and all that if a hobbyist is going to kill 20 of them before he/she gets it right? That leads to more collection than is necessary (even if it is sustainable...).

Perhaps my view is somewhat Utopian also...

One other thing to consider - "Aquarium Geeks" don't spend nearly as much as newbies - not because the newbies kill everything, rather because they NEED everything - an established hobbyist with a full tank of livestock only needs stuff from time to time - perhaps to replace that 12 year old clown that finally passed away or a coral to replace one that mysteriously RTN'd... the new hobbyist with a new tank is your best customer - treat him well, give him sound advise and in a bit of time, he'll be the next "geek" with the full tank. He'll still be a loyal customer, and a happy one, and you can take satisfaction knowing you helped to get him there - but you'll need that steady stream of newbies to keep that wave going.

Jenn

 

[dizzy]

David,
Jenn is making some very good points. Retail is where it all begins. We create interest with our displays and we nurture that interest with our good advice. Finally after many visits and countless questions the newbie is ready to take the plunge and try marine fishkeeping. This is defintely where the retailers make their money. Next thing you know they have heard about e-tailers and are lured off by discount pricing. Many a poor choice is made via this medium. The cutthroat natue of the on-line competition insures that large volume selling will be necessary to earn a living, which only fuels the price wars. You think you can sell green and sell high, well good luck. Check out www.seacrop.com. Those are very competitive prices for the most part. David there are plenty more with far less scruples than you waiting to cash in on the new conscienceness. The hobbyist will surely be confused and might as well just go with the cheapest. Besides if one dies at those prices he can afford to get another one. :roll:

 

[dpetruescu]

You both are making very good points. And I agree with you completely. If my plan works out, retail/service will be a big part of the business. Maybe only part, who knows?

Just like retail, if my product is top quality, cyanide free or aquacultured, there will be customers interested in the product, and pay the price, just like in a regular retail store.

I agree, the way online is going right now, with the prices going lower every day, competition is very tough. But maybe, by offering a superior product, at a higher cost will appeal to enough customers to keep me in business.

I believe there a people in both markets trying to make a fast buck. Where I leave there are 2-3 times more retailers selling livestock w/o any education and even the one they do give is miss-information. Tanks are dirty, incompetent staff, bad service... just like everywhere.

The question is... where can an honest man, trying to provide for his family and be green at the same time, get cyanide free fish?

When I was planning this, (I'm still in planning stages mind you) I did not think it would be this hard to find suppliers for cyanide free fish... I never knew...

 

[Anonymous]

The question is... where can an honest man, trying to provide for his family and be green at the same time, get cyanide free fish?

From MAC, of course.

 

[JennM]

Now Glenn, do I sense a hint of sarcasm?

Provide for your family, hmmmmm where does that factor into the fish biz?

If not for my husband's "real job" I wouldn't be doing this. I couldn't provide squat for my family from this (yet) and probably won't for a while - welcome to startup business 101.

Hard and fast rules for starting any type of LFS:

1) Don't quit your day job
2) If you do quit your day job, make sure your spouse keeps their day job
3) If you are single and give up your day job, hope you like Ramen noodles
4) Don't spend the 401K on this
5) Don't spend any more than you can afford to lose

Have a rock-solid business plan based on actual numbers from real businesses, don't just guesstimate what you think you can sell. Watch what others are doing right, and wrong and learn from that.

When you've got all that figured out, forget about sleep or having a life for at least the first 2 years.

If you still haven't been scared away by all this - make sure that you live and breathe for what you are about to undertake - because you'll be living, breathing, eating and sleeping it until further notice.

Having said all that, I'm glad I'm doing what I'm doing, and at 9PM I just came in from caring for a brand new maintenance customer and I made her tank look BEAUTIFUL - the smile on her face is what it's all about.

Jenn