The new AMDA

[JT]

As a member of the BOD for the American Marinelife Dealers Association, I am pleased to annouce that the AMDA members have elected a new set of board directors. There are some awesome people on board and I am confident that this new administration will be successful in putting AMDA back on track and will make it's founder, Mr. Tullock, quite proud.

The new leadership grabs the helm on Jan. 15th for a two year term, a two year term.

Your new leadership team is:

President
Steve Robinson, Cortez Marine

Vice President
Rick Preuss, Preuss Animal House

Secretary
Karen St. Pierre, Island Aquarium Services

Treasurer
Liz Harris, Creatures Featured

Director at Large
Burton Patrick, Pet Supplies Plus

Western Regional Director
Tim Cummings, Vicious Fishes

South Central Regional Director
Mitch "Dizzy" Gibbs, Aquatic Revolutions

North Central Regional Director
Mark Swank-Schreffler, The Reef Shop

North Eastern Regional Director
Randy Goodlet, Aquatic Systems Consultants

Website Manager/Internet Liasion
JT Croteau, Sea Dwelling Creatures

If anyone has any questions or comments please post here or you can email me privately to [email protected]

- JT

 

[naesco]

Congrats guys.
You CAN make a difference.

Do any of your board represent the hobby? Or are they all industry people.

 

[JT]

Do any of your board represent the hobby? Or are they all industry people.

Naesco, I think it depends on how you look at it. Despite the fact that I work for a major wholesaler in LA, I am still and always will be a hobbyist at heart. But, one must look at why AMDA was originally created -- for the Ma and Pa store owner. AMDA is a dealers association. Organizations such as AMDA and MAC need to work with hobbyist organizations and clubs such as MASNA, not against. For too long, all the various organizations have been walking down different paths in an attempt to achieve the same goals.

- JT

 

[naesco]

I would urge you or any other directors to take the necessary step and provide a directorship or a non-voting director (you can talk but not vote) at your meetings. If AMDA is 're-born' it must be seen to be re-born.
In this way you have the opportunity to here a non-industry point of view at the board level. You may not agree with what may be said but the bottom line is what is good for the hobby is good for industry.

In Canada, there are non-attorneys who have 'seats' on the Lawyers Bar Association. The same is true for doctors and many other groups.

 

[dizzy]

naesco,

With all due respect you have no idea of the challenges that are facing our industry. Aside from the obvious educational value these boards have, they are also damaging to marine retailers. Too many people like you and SPC like to run down the marine dealers. You try to portray us as greedy, immoral, uncaring, and ignorant. You do much damage to the good dealers as well as the bad. The rest are busy praising the deep discount e-tailers who gain advantage by selling in high volume at very low margins. These places are responsible for 1000s and 1000s of animals being taken from the wild. They get it in and move it out quick. Someone that trys to hold and properly condition the livestock is placed at a terrible disadvantage.

Very rarely do I see people on these boards asking who has the best quarantined livestock. It is always where can I buy this the cheapest. If we aren't careful we will end up with just a lot of Petco and Petsmart types dominating the Brick and Motar thing, and the Jeff's Cheap as Hell Fish mail order companies accounting for the rest of the business. I can't think of any other business where you have to work so hard, sell stuff for such low margins, and yet get constantly criticized. Naesco you should take a part time job at a lfs and I think you would see we are not the monsters you make us out to be.

Mitch Gibbs

 

[naesco]

Your reply underlines what it is vital that you fully support the additon of a hobbyist to your Board. As a director, I would ask to provide the necessary notice so that that addition is the first on your agenda.

AMDA to date has done nothing to reform the industry which is badly in need of reform.
My interest in the industry reform movement is that if nothing is done the government will close down my hobby. I have said it before and I will say it again. Industry reform or you will have no business.

Because nothing has been done by AMDA, industry allows loser LFS and online stores to prevail cutting in to the business of hard working and ethical LFS like yourself. Industry is responsible for the proliferation of unethical and irresponsible LFS and online stores not the hobbyists and certainly not SPC or myself.

As a reefer on this board I will not be quiet and allow:
1. Cleaner wrasses to be sold by anyone period.
2. Mandarins to be sold to reefers who have new and pod-less tnks.
3. Worthless technology to be sold to newbies.
4. Impossible to keep fish and coral (the USL) to be sold to anyone
5. And most importantly tangs to be sold to reefers whose tank capacity does not meet the minimum standards


As a reefer on this board I will:
1. Give the best advice I can on the fish and coral that I have experience with
2. Fully support industry efforts with reform.
3. Do what ever I can to support all levels of industry who deal in net caught fish, aqua cultured fish, coral and rock because they are the future.
4. Do what ever I can to stop use of cyanide which has destroyed our reefs and sickened the fish imported and sold to reefers.
5. Do whatever I can to ensure that industry adopts the USL (usnsuitable species list) discussed on this forum.

Dizzy I am aware of the seriousness of the situation and the challenges facing good industry people like you and Mary, Steve, and Kyle for example.

And no, Dizzy I do not have take a part time job at a LFS. I know what is going on in there. My son works for one.

I challege the new AMDA team to make a difference. Make Tullock proud. If industry supports those things that allow for and ethical and sustainable industry you will flourish. Ignore it and you will perish and we hobbyists will be left with a few clowns and the like and left trading brown corals with eachother.

 

[DBM]

Naesco,

Dizzy I am aware of the seriousness of the situation and the challenges facing good industry people like you and Mary, Steve, and Kyle for example

I don't think you really are aware of the challenges facing "good industry people". All wholesalers say their fish are "net-caught" but I know maybe 5 or 6 in North America that are clean, and most them work long hard hours for next to nothing - while the liers, cheats, and thieves are making off like bandits.
I think a better local choice for a "good industry" person would be Tim at Seacare. He buys his fish from Marivi (the only Philippine exporter who doesn't mix cyanide caught fish in with the clean ones).

Doug

 

[naesco]

Doug the point I am trying to make is that I am committed to putting the unethical out of business.
This board can do a few things.
1. Do not accept advertising from advertisers that do not meet certain minimum standards. eg. you cannot say they are net caught unless they are.
2. Bring the liars cheaters etc out in the open. eg If an online store advertises that they do not buy PI fish and they do, challenge them right on the boards.
Without the boards the online fish stores are out of business IMO.

We on the boards should encourage fellow reefers to throw back dead and dying Moorish Idol, cleaner wrasse etc. at the loser LFS who sell them and demand their money back. We need to force the losers to pay up and clean up or lose future business.
If Marviti is the only one we can trust than we should demand that that is where they purchase their fish.

 

[dizzy]

Doug the point I am trying to make is that I am committed to putting the unethical out of business.
.

naesco,

It won't happen in a free market country. Perhaps if we could clone Joseph Stalin. 8O

MG

 

[naesco]

free market smarket
Suck in your gut and do the right thing.
Screw the politics.

 

[dizzy]

naesco,

I was nominated to serve on the AMDA Board. I really didn't want to do it, but since I have been asked to serve, I will do my best to help our industry. I would like to see some type of educational courses offered on-line in Pet Store Management. (Something like MACO) I think these courses should include fresh and saltwater husbandry. The courses should teach people the best techniques for acclimating and caring for livestock. The courses should teach how to maintain good water quality and how to minimize parasite problems. The complete course should be comprehensive and should be the ultimate path to a successful career in the pet industry. Receiving this degree would insure that the graduate would be prepared to deal with the certification process that is coming.

In England one of the universities offers a degree in Pet Store Management. This is what is sorely needed here in the United States. Way too much stuff gets learned the hard way or the wrong way.
If the rest of the AMDA Board agrees I will be willing to work to find someone who would like to offer this type of course on-line. It might be the university in England, or perhaps one of our universities will see the merit of offering such a degree. Dr. John Gratzek at the University of Georgia used to offer a short course in veterinary medicine for fresh and saltwater fish. This excellent short course also taught varius aspects of fish husbandry. It was a great starting point but there are a lot of aspects that take more time to cover. I believe Rob Toonen offers a course for careers at public aquariums. Perhaps Rob would be willing to expand his courses to include pet store careers as well. I believe this could be a course that would benefit every lfs owner in the country.

I think good ethics will also come from good education. I hope we can make a difference.

Mitch Gibbs

 

[SPC]

Posted by dizzy:

I would like to see some type of educational courses offered on-line in Pet Store Management.

-Thats great dizzy, and where would the information for this course come from, I mean its not hidden in a vault where no one has access to it is it? Isn't this information available right now for anyone to learn? Are you also proposing this course be mandatory and that a licensing test must be passed?

Too many people like you and SPC like to run down the marine dealers. You try to portray us as greedy, immoral, uncaring, and ignorant. You do much damage to the good dealers as well as the bad.

-Thats BS Mitch, I relate exactly what I see. It is not all of the marine dealers that I have a problem with, it is just the ones like you :wink: .Ask Mary, Judy, Tom, Jeremy (and others like me and naesco who have been in this forum for a long time) if that is true. I have always praised and sympathized with good LFSs and in fact place the majority of the responsibility on the hobbyist. Let me repeat that, IMO, it is the hobbiest who is ultimately responsible for any problems in this industry. It is the final user of the product who has all the power and therefore the final say. This is why naesco and I try to educate the final user in what we see as ethical reefkeeping.
Think about this, there are actually a couple of LFS owners who have thanked me through E mail, so don't be trying to lump all people in this industry in with your "thought police".

Very rarely do I see people on these boards asking who has the best quarantined livestock. It is always where can I buy this the cheapest. If we aren't careful we will end up with just a lot of Petco and Petsmart types dominating the Brick and Motar thing, and the Jeff's Cheap as Hell Fish mail order companies accounting for the rest of the business.

-You are 100% correct here! If you do a search you will notice that naseco and I have both emphasized this point many times on the boards. Cost should not be a factor, quality is all that matters. Have you made any posts yet dizzy explaining this to the people looking for cheap fish on the main board?? Are you doing your part?
Steve

 

[naesco]

Dizzy the education idea is a good idea. The more informed the LFS the better advice will be given.
I would also like to see more conciencious experienced marine dealers LFS etc.) take to the boards and give out advice. Were there one from the Seattle area for example, I believe many reefers would flock to their stores to get quality equipment and quality fish and coral. LFS need to educate reefers about why quality fish are more expensive and other cost issues.

But even more important right now is for the AMDA to take a stand on the issue of cyanide fishing. IMO this is the priority issue and is in the best interest of reefer and industry.
AMDA must go on record as actively supporting the closure of the cyanide fishery. If enough LFS scream at their supplier and demand cyanide free fish changes will happen sooner.
If MAC also makes pro active changes, as I believe they must, and I believe they will, they deserve AMDA support as well.

 

[dizzy]

Posted by dizzy:

I would like to see some type of educational courses offered on-line in Pet Store Management.

-Thats great dizzy, and where would the information for this course come from, I mean its not hidden in a vault where no one has access to it is it? Isn't this information available right now for anyone to learn? Are you also proposing this course be mandatory and that a licensing test must be passed?



SPC

I'm suggesting that we work with a university to offer a professional course in Pet Store Management like they have in England. I'm talking about offering a degree that could be used to gain employment anywhere in the country. This industry could use professionally trained people and no such training currently exists to my knowledge. The course could be taken by owners to train themselves, or you could have employees take it if you want career people. Very few stores are properly prepared for certification, and this would be a way of helping them to get ready. This would be a way to vastly improve the industry. I'm really surprised something like this doesn't already exist. I would imagine people who received this degree would be in high demand and able to find gainful employment with good lfs or even the dreaded chains. Lots of professions have educational programs to prepare people to work in that field. What is so wrong with wanting something similar for the pet industry?

]

 

[PeterIMA]

Hey guys (and girls) lets congratulate Steve Robinson and the other new AMDA board members. There are indeed serious problems in the aquarium trade and with the MAC. Lets give the new AMDA board members our full support. They are going to need a lot of support to deal with the problems you have brought forward on this list. I believe that AMDA can play an important role in reforming the aquarium trade (and the MAC) so that hobbyists will have a clear choice as to where to obtain net-caught fish and maricultured corals/live rock etc., while being able to sleep comfortably with the assurance that their hobby is not contributing to the destruction of coral reefs and to pushing the collectors further into poverty. More on this later.

Peter Rubec

 

[SPC]

Posted by dizzy:

I'm suggesting that we work with a university to offer a professional course in Pet Store Management like they have in England. I'm talking about offering a degree that could be used to gain employment anywhere in the country. This industry could use professionally trained people and no such training currently exists to my knowledge. The course could be taken by owners to train themselves, or you could have employees take it if you want career people.

-I understand what you are proposing dizzy, but this still does not answer my question. What incentive is there for anyone to take this course? The law dosen't require it and the vast majority of aquarium keepers don't care if the LFS owner has taken a course (just as long as he/she has the cheapest animals).

Very few stores are properly prepared for certification, and this would be a way of helping them to get ready.

-Ahhh, you are talking about MAC certification here? Are you saying that the incentive for taking this course is in order to be MAC certified? If not then I still have to question why the LFS owners have not already learned the things you wish to teach through this course.

This would be a way to vastly improve the industry. I'm really surprised something like this doesn't already exist. I would imagine people who received this degree would be in high demand and able to find gainful employment with good lfs or even the dreaded chains. Lots of professions have educational programs to prepare people to work in that field. What is so wrong with wanting something similar for the pet industry?

-Not a thing is wrong with it, but I don't see it happening voluntarily.
Steve

 

[MaryHM]

Have to agree with SPC on this one. AMDA has had a skills test for years and participation has been pathetic at best. Rick Oellers did a lot of work on that project and it's a shame more members didn't take advantage. As for the new AMDA board, I'm in a wait and see position. I've heard it all before "Hey everyone, a new board is in place and things are going to change- we mean it this time- promise!". In fact, I was a part of it. I think the people on this board are good ones and hopefully they will be able to get together and actually turn AMDA in a positive direction. We'll see.

 

[dizzy]

SPC,

A person that is well educated receives higher wages. People who actually bother to learn to do things the right way would be in high demand in this industry and could expect good wages. The incentive would be getting a decent paying job in a field you like. Owners who took the course would benefit in decreased livestock losses and higher profits. I personally like getting more training and education. I took Dr. Gatzek's course at the University of Geogia in 1986 and it was full. He explained central filtration, quarantine procedures, and much, much more. We had also had hands on work in the lab with scrapping fish and preparing slides for disease identification under the microscope. A very useful course, but not long enough to cover many aspects of the industry.

Mary you are being way too negative. Sometimes we have to have to be optimistic. I have already told you this works in England. Are we that different from our ancestors? I was one of the first three people to take the AMDA skills test. Taking a test is different from having a curriculum that teaches you the best way to do things from beginning to end.

This would not be AMDA giving the courses it would be through an accredited university. I think more people would be interested in this than you or spc think. As a retail store owner would you rather hire someone that knew as much or more about proper fish husbandry than you, or would you rather hire some kid off the streets?

Why train people to work at public aquariums? They do the same window washing and water quality testing a store does. Since they have a fairly stable fish population they don't have near the problems with diseases either.

I want a better industry and having better trained people to work in the industry would be a great first step IMO. I'm not going to let your negativism discourage me from working toward this goal. I hope someday you will want a better trained industry too.

 

[Anonymous]

fwiw:

i've been working in the retail end of this industry, on and off, since '77.

from 'cage cleaner' to manager.

also worked in wholesale/distribution overseas.

anyone who thinks that a typical lfs, either a chain, or independent, is gonna pay 'good money' for an employee, simply because he has a piece of paper is delusional.

this industry does not pay well enough for those who even prove and establish their ability, and knowledge, at the retail end as 'hired hands'.

that is why most pet store employees are what they are, imho :wink:

high school kids looking for a supplemental paycheck :wink:

i have classically seen the lfs's i've worked at benefit quite well from my knowledge, and experience, while trying to get by w/paying me the cheapest wage they could, regardless of the economic standard of the store's business.

just my $.02 :wink:

 

[dizzy]

fwiw:anyone who thinks that a typical lfs, either a chain, or independent, is gonna pay 'good money' for an employee, simply because he has a piece of paper is delusional.quote]

vitz,

The pet industry is changing. Some want this change and some don't, but chance it surely will. I'm not talking about creating some sort of fake accreditation. I'm talking about establishing a tough curriculum that actually produces quality graduates. If you had such a degree you could leave a store that was exploiting you and move on to one that appreciated qualified help. You could also move into public aquarium work with this degree. Dr. Gratzek's course was taken by people from many professions, including pet stores, public aquariums, aquaculture, and veterinary students. I see now where a lot of stores have " a marine biologist" on staff. We don't need marine biologists to make water partials, test water quality, empty protein skimmers, wipe algae, or answer questions. We need nurses not doctors. We need people that can competently do pretty much any task you ask of them in this field. We need career people and not just a bunch that are passing through. .

vitz some of the absolute worst employees we have ever hired were ones that had experience working at other stores. People are not being trained to do things the right way. In fact they have often been trained to do things the wrong way. Hobbyists go to five different stores and they get told five different ways to do things. We need certain standards for this industry and they need to be properly taught to people who are serious about careers in this industry.

Mitch Gibbs