The new AMDA

[Anonymous]

i applied for a job at the new jersey public aquarium a few yrs. back, for the job of 'coral curator'-basically the one who would be responsible for running the smaller sw displays.

when i applied, the display tanks had algae problems, fish had hlle, etc.

i was 'passed over' for someone with 'papers' and previous public aquarium experience.

the tanks still look like crap, two years later.

dizzy:

i still stand by my contention that most lfs's, are NOT interested in knowledgable employees that can do their job correctly.

they are interested in people who can do the job of keeping the store looking (sometimes just barely) presentable, and selling as much junk to as many people as possible, whether they need it or not-regardless of the fact that in the long term, it's bad for their business.

i've also seen other good folks leave the industry,on the retail sales end,out of disgust w/what the industry pays for hard work, and good specialized knowledge and experience. :wink:


granted-there may be a few stores out there who don't fit this 'profile'- but they are way too few and far in between,to warrant the value of such a program-most lfs's are just a business, from the owner's perspective, methinks :wink:

 

[MaryHM]

I'm not going to let your negativism discourage me from working toward this goal. I hope someday you will want a better trained industry too.
_________________

Dizzy, are you off your medication?? You must be kidding to even imply that I wouldn't want a better trained industry. Choose your words better, my friend. What you perceive as negativism is REALISM. What I'm saying is that I agree with SPC in that there is no incentive. There's a running joke in the industry that the employ entrance to a pet shop is a revolving door. The vast majority of retailers just want the kid who will work for minimum wage and is hard pressed to pay their knowledgable managers much over that. There has to be INCENTIVE for someone to get trained. That incentive is better pay and I don't see the majority of retailers willing to pay better for an educated employee. The University of Oregon is offering a course kind of like what you're talking about. Check in to it.

 

[SPC]

Posted by dizzy:

I took Dr. Gatzek's course at the University of Geogia in 1986 and it was full. He explained central filtration, quarantine procedures, and much, much more.

-Is this course still offered?

-Let me ask this of you again, why do you think employers and employees are not studying the myriad of books that are out there right now? For most shops it would be a simple matter of purchasing one book off the list that we recommend to the new hobbyist who come to the board. Whats holding them back?

Also, you said earlier:

I can't think of any other business where you have to work so hard, sell stuff for such low margins, and yet get constantly criticized.

-Can this type of business afford to pay the kind of wages to employees it would take for them to make a career of this?

-And let me make this clear again, I support education 100%. But I am sure that anyone who has read my posts would know this by now.

Steve

 

[dizzy]

SPC,

I just called the University of Georgia Veterinary School and they informed me that Dr. Gratzek is now retired. I then got cutoff but I don't believe anyone else is teaching the course. Pity really. I am going to contact Dr. Gratzek who is busy writting books (I believe) on stuff like Aquariology: Fish Breeding and Genetics. Dr. Gratzek may still have a zest for teaching aquarium husbandry techinques. I will let you know what he says.

Mitch

 

[Mike King]

Dizzy I saw a post on coral list (I think) about a new 2 or 4 year course on pet husbandry at a University that is getting started, You might be able to find it in the coral list archives. If I remember right it was mainly concerned with aquatic resources. was posted about 1-2 months ago.

Mike

 

[dizzy]

Probably for this idea to really work it should train people to work in at pet stores, public aquariums, or at aquaculture facilities. All of these fields could use people that were well trained in husbandry and disease prevention techiniques. I honestly believe the pet store of the future is going to have to be a lot better trained than the pet store of the past or present.

Mike

If you find that link let me know. Doing a search on RDO is like looking for a needle in a haystack. Everything comes up.

Mitch

 

[Anonymous]

I can understand that an employee has no incentive to take the course or otherwise educate themselves, but an owner has an awful lot of incentive. Especially if it lends itself to dissemination, through manuals and whatnot.

 

[clarionreef]

Hello People,
I just got a internet cafe seat in a little fishing village on Bajas Pacific side and the manager says we close in minutes...thanks for the congrats and the ones who say wait and see on the AMDA elections.
Does anyone imagine that anyone has sold out...to any degree at all
Dont worry. Ill be back home soon and can communicate more easily...I hope this gets thru..
Sincerely, Steve Robinson

 

[MaryHM]

Steve! Glad to hear from you! Eat a fish taco for me!

Who is the new MAC Rep for AMDA??? The website doesn't say. Please tell me it's not Goodlett. Please tell me it's you. Please don't tell me "AMDA hasn't discussed it yet!". It's kinda important....

 

[flameangel1]

Just a quick note here--
yes, I am very strongly in favor of education within this hobby/business/industry--but do any of you here realize that most of us conciencious (sp) shops, dont make enough money to pay ourselves minimum wages-never mind paying some person with a Degree in saltwater ,who is demanding his rightful due as far as wages .
There simply is not enough money/profit margin (hmmm, what is that anyway) to pay decent wages !!!
(no- I do it all myself- cant afford to hire anyone for any kind of wages. )

And I still believe that it is the HOBBYIST who needs to take some responsibility for learning --instead of blaming it all on everyone else because they dont want to be bothered to learn. !!!!

And I also agree with Mary- she and I both,had high hopes for AMDA the last time around-and we both tried our best --and personally, I hope it works this time around but will wait and see.. Banged my head against that wall to hard the last time !!!

 

[MaryHM]

Judy!! Good to see you here! I thought you were buried in a snow drift or something.

 

[flameangel1]

Mary,,
Just about have been running the snowblower for days !!!!
In a 5 degrees below zero for days now too !!!!
Too cold for anything -but snow !!!!

 

[flameangel1]

billsreef--

Right now I just don't see the incentive for someone to get that education unless it is merely for personal satisfaction.[/unquote]


for the record-- I would not have used the word-merely- in the quote above..
If one takes pride in their work-- the only incentive needed,is the willingness to learn enough to DO a good job !!!!

Old time values that seem to have gotten lost somewhere !!

 

[clarionreef]

Did we really land on the moon Kalk?
Seriously...I don't know of damage caused by cyanide fishing from heresay...I lived in a cyanide fishing village for almost two years. My input is from observation and involvement...on the reefs, in the boat and in the comradarie of cyanide fisherman.
No one comments better on the effects of cyanide than the fisherman themselves. They lose collecting areas over it and have to keep going futher afield. Its relevant to them.
I wish you were on to something here but you're not. Cyanide sabatoges reef productivity on a chronic basis and not at all like trhe occassional act of nature inferred to be just as bad. Filipinos lived with acts of nature for hundreds of years but never have they inpoverished themselves with man made reef destruction like they do now.

Steve

 

[mkirda]

I have always praised and sympathized with good LFSs and in fact place the majority of the responsibility on the hobbyist. Let me repeat that, IMO, it is the hobbiest who is ultimately responsible for any problems in this industry. It is the final user of the product who has all the power and therefore the final say.

SPC,

You know something? I think that this statement is just about the biggest load of BS I've heard yet on this subject. How exactly is the hobbyist responsible for exporters in the Philippines who own the bancas that go out with hundreds of pounds of cyanide and hit the reefs of far-off islands that do not even have inhabitants (or who are unaware that they are even there)? How exactly is the hobbyist responsible for the LFS employee that tells him "Oh, yeah. These Cup Corals (Goniopora sp.) are really hardy.", then when it dies, goes back with a water sample, finds out their water is fine, yet they must need some additive for their Gonipora. Here's another one for you... (Personal experience, pre-Delbeek&Sprung's 1st book). I woke up when I added up the cost of the fish and corals I had lost one month and realized it was nearly the cost of my rent. I had relied entirely on the advise of what is still considered one of the best LFS in the greater Chicagoland area. How exactly was I responsible? There was no information available- The web hadn't really taken off yet, and the only resources were alt.aquaria or rec.aquaria. I discovered these about a year AFTER I had started my tank. Heck, there wasn't even a local club yet...
Again, you going to blame me personally?

In fact, I stopped buying anything for about six months. I figured I needed to get some more information together before I delved into the hobby any deeper. I'm also sure that another reason was due to the fact that I couldn't buy any more and still pay for rent next month. When I did buy more, I was armed with some knowledge.

Even today, someone who wants a tank is going to go to their LFS and ask questions. Oftentimes, they are sent home with a tank, stand and a dozen fish. Are you going to blame them for relying on the advice given them by their pet shop?

To say that the hobbyist has a degree of responsibility would be fine- I would agree wholeheartedly. But to say that the buck stops with them and them alone for issues as diverse as cyanide use is, frankly, a huge pile of bovine excrement.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Bill2]

naesco,
I would like to see some type of educational courses offered on-line in Pet Store Management. (Something like MACO) I think these courses should include fresh and saltwater husbandry. The courses should teach people the best techniques for acclimating and caring for livestock. The courses should teach how to maintain good water quality and how to minimize parasite problems. The complete course should be comprehensive and should be the ultimate path to a successful career in the pet industry. Receiving this degree would insure that the graduate would be prepared to deal with the certification process that is coming.

Sounds like a great idea. Being one of the creators of the current maco I think it would be a great additions. If someone would like to work out a curriculm and discuss it with me i'd be happy to offer the services of MACO.

 

[Bill2]

I talked to Todd Crail about this when I first envisioned MACO years ago. I forsaw a certification process for local fish stores. It would have certified the store as "Up to Date" or some other cheesy name. Courses would have included:
1 course in coral biology
1 course in fish husbandry
1 basic biz course
1 course on current equipment

and 1 update yearly.

Some organization could produce a list quarterly of stores that have reached this milestone.

 

[dizzy]

Bill,

I would just like to add that I was successful in making contact with Dr. John Gratzek formerly of the University of Georgia School of Veterinary Medicine. ( He taught the fish disease course) Dr. Gratzek is now enjoying retirement. However Dr. Gratzek did inform me that Dr. Greg Lewbart of the North Carolina College of Veterinary Medicine in Raleigh is now offering a similar cousrse. The course is 3-days and I don't have the dates yet, but I will pass on the information after I speak with Dr. Lewbart. Although much of the course was on freshwater diseases many of the procedures for quarantine and lab work are the same. Dr. Gratzek did mention that he helped to teach the course at NCS last year. Dr. George Blasiola taught the section on marine diseases back in 1986 when I took the course. With a bit of effort I think we can find someone to help with this project.

 

[Anonymous]

here's yet another typical example from my experience that seems to illustrate why the avg, or even slightly above average, lfs, will probably never follow any type of 'self improvement' 'journey, w/regards to staff...

and i think it's partly because-the potential staff just ain't out there....

i started working at a local, fairly decent(stockwise) lfs not too long ago-prolly around march, iirc...

this was after i took a look around, and saw how much room for improvement there was...

to make a long story short-i was moved up to (maintenance/ quality control) manager of the fishroom, after identifying huge staff performance problems-person in charge of disease prevention and control was just killing livestock left and right, from lack of feeding/overmedicating, costing the owner 10's of thousands of dollars /yr, in my estimation-boss agreed, after showing him what the deal was-and he fired her....

fired most of the old staff, in fact-they were very lazy,non-performing,unknowledgable spoiled kids that were costing his business dearly in ruined sales from lack of livestock/product knowledge, as well.

some even lied to him regularly about their performance of maintenance task they were supposed to complete, like system wc's.

so i took it upon myself to try to bring the store up to a whole other league, w/the intent of making it the best lfs in the state, at the least.

see some of the improvements i made here:

http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=31881,

and here:

http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=33368

even helped expand/re-establish business contacts, and product lines, and helped sales grow considerably, as well as increase profit margins of various departments

i got fired on fri :!: :evil: -reason given by the boss was 'no-one wants to work w/you anymore'and, 'you're the best employee i've had/have, but i have to let you go' :?

seems like the remaining staff approached him and said 'him or us'-they were either too sick of having to really work at doin their jobs properly, or were tired of looking bad compared to one who worked responsibly, and competently :wink:

boss seems to prefer a happy kindergarten of mediocrity, than the challenge of having to bust butt for awhile, to be at the top :?

seems typical of most lfs's i've had experience with since being in the biz

i'm in the job market, btw :wink:

(and, after 30 yrs in the hobby/biz, it seems like i still just don't get it... :? )

 

[mkirda]

i got fired on fri :!: :evil: -reason given by the boss was 'no-one wants to work w/you anymore'and, 'you're the best employee i've had/have, but i have to let you go' :?

seems like the remaining staff approached him and said 'him or us'-they were either too sick of having to really work at doin their jobs properly, or were tired of looking bad compared to one who worked responsibly, and competently :wink:

boss seems to prefer a happy kindergarten of mediocrity, than the challenge of having to bust butt for awhile, to be at the top :?

seems typical of most lfs's i've had experience with since being in the biz

i'm in the job market, btw :wink:

(and, after 30 yrs in the hobby/biz, it seems like i still just don't get it... :? )

Sorry to hear this, Vitz.

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but from what it sounds like to me, you did everything right, but approached it wrong.

There are many ways of handling people, and it seems like what was lacking was not marine knowledge, but people skills.

Lord knows, I couldn't do that job, not from lack of knowlege, but from the fact that I don't think I could handle the customer service aspect 24/7. Let alone trying to motivate others to make the store into the best it could possibly be...

Best of luck to you.

Regards.
Mike Kirda