This was reprinted with permission from Neil Garrick-Maidment regarding the addition of Seahorses to Appendix 2 of CITES. It's relevant to the pet trade and may be of interest to some here. I carry captive raised seahorses and I find it a bit disconcerting:
Regarding Seahorses and CITES
- Thread starter JennM
- Start date
Thank you for posting this Jenn.
Seahorses are not 'proposed' to be included on CITES Appendix II, they will been included.
I feel that size restrictions, and specific trade management factors should be enforced by entities like trade associations or local governments. Criteria for supportable collecting for trade in one area may not be appropriate critera in another area.
Seahorses are not 'proposed' to be included on CITES Appendix II, they will been included.
I feel that size restrictions, and specific trade management factors should be enforced by entities like trade associations or local governments. Criteria for supportable collecting for trade in one area may not be appropriate critera in another area.
Sure but the size restrictions are going to stop altoghether, the trade in many of the smaller horses, whose adult size is never 10 cm. Also, what about captive raised ones? The ones I get now are usually about 5 cm-7 cm, and they are already very expensive - and I'm happy to pay more for captive raised healthy ones - and so are my customers, however the increased cost to the breeder just to satisfy a regulation designed to protect the wild specimens is going to price them out of the market for many stores and consumers. In fact, I'd even go so far as to say that the CB ones will be prohibitively expensive, and the wild seahorses that are brought in under CITES will be cheaper, and thus increase the demand on wild caught specimens. Kinda defeats the whole purpose, doesn't it?
Jenn
Jenn
Once again.........be careful what you wish. By including seahorses in CITES.............we create FAR more problems then we will be solving. Not only will all captive bred livestock become TOO costly for the pubic to support captive bred......it will increase the demand for wild stock.......................also any boxes of fish which contain seahorses , will now have to set and wait for US fish and wildlife to inspect the boxes at "Landing"{some times until the next day} I conclude that more fish {and seahorses} die in the LAST hours {of a thirty hour shipping) then at any other time {waitig of the inspectors!} ? Lastly 98 % of collected seahorses are not for this trade .................and the Asian counties that import the vast majority of seahorse s are NOT PART OF CITES......so 98 out of 100 collected seahorses will be collected and shipped outside the control of CITES! "GOOD THINKING GUYS!
naesco":25sehhq5 said:
Naesco, naesco, naesco.... your short-sightedness strikes again....
Dr. Amanda Vincent, head cheerleader for the welfare of seahorses, and of good ole McGill University in Montreal, even supports the appropriate taking of wild seahorses, provided that pregnant males are left alone, there are no-take zones, and she even has piloted "captive" projects in the wild habitat where adults are kept confined in their territories by nets, but offspring are allowed to leave and multiply....
It is unlikely that the taking of horses for Traditional Chinese Medicine (or TCM) will ever be stopped but if the harvest can be MANAGED then the demand can be satisifed, without total devastation of the species that are collected. Even Dr. Vincent sees this, why can't you?
The answer to everything is NOT total regulation by far removed government. In fact, be careful what you wish for because if you invite too much outside intervention it could collapse the hobby and the trade altogether.
As to the hobby - there is no good reason that seahorses can not or should not be taken from the wild, for hobbyists suitably educated and equipped to manage them. I've got 4 wild caught females in my home tank right now. In fact I didn't get males because I just don't have the time to deal with babies right now, but in the past I've had breeding pairs. Was unable to rear the fry with any measure of success, but IMO for the dedicated hobbyist, there are several species which breed readily in captivity, and which have viable young that are easy enough to rear, that they are an excellent candidate for captive living and breeding. Who are YOU to say that trade in them should be banned altogether? Let's not forget that seahorse farms need broodstock, and they come from the wild, and if the old family tree needs to fork at some time, more wild broodstock might be required. If trade in seahorses is banned altogether, the seahorse breeders might as well close up shop now, because as hard as it is now, it's about to become harder, and would become impossible if they are not able to procure new brood stock.
I'm GLAD there are several successful breeders out there, have even had the pleasure and privilege of meeting a few of them a couple of years ago, and I HOPE that the CITES legislation is amended in such a way as to not make life difficult for them. They are providing a valuable livestock resource, and I hope that their good work isn't undone by the stroke of a pen.
Jenn
If seahorses are on Cites list which means they need protection and they are available as captive raised why would you even want to consider removing them from the wild.
Your the one that is short sighted.
Please start thinking of the consequences of what industry is doing to the wild environment.
Where 'product' is available captive raised, wild caught should be a legislated no no.
Your the one that is short sighted.
Please start thinking of the consequences of what industry is doing to the wild environment.
Where 'product' is available captive raised, wild caught should be a legislated no no.
naesco":2u6clgfb said:
And are you going to impose a tax on the American farm-raised horses and fishes to support the fishers that lose their livelihood? Like it or not, food and ornamental fisheries is a way of life and a source of income for MANY people especially in the Pacific rim. If you banned all collections, how would they be able to support themselves? What's the unemployment rate in Newfoundland since the cod fishery collapsed? Do you enjoy the higher taxes you pay in Canada to support all that unemployment and welfare?
Yes, we pay taxes here in the US (don't forget, I'm Canadian, spent the first 32 years of my life there.. but I have seen both sides of the border now), but the taxes are not nearly as high, because there isn't the huge cradle-to-grave social safety net. Other countries have less or non-existant social safety nets.
So you want to ban all collection of a species because it's available captive raised..... how will the collectors you've just put out of business, supposed to support themselves?
Dr. Vincent saw a way: MANAGEMENT. Teach the collectors how to sustain the resources they had - manage them, make them LAST. She knew she couldn't stop the trade in horses, mostly for TCM, but what she COULD do was make a difference in how the horses were collected, where they were collected, and give the species and the habitat a chance to sustain itself in the long term.
The new CITES rules as they pertain to seahorses are designed to accomplish the same thing: manage a vulnerable species. Unfortunately, I believe that the legislation was not as carefully thought out as it could have been. Now that this "size restriction" is imposed, perhaps the smaller species can make more of a comeback but species like H. erectus, H. reidi, H. ingens in particular, might be collected in greater numbers, to satisfy market demand.
You aren't going to stop the trade in horses for TCM, even if you banned them in the ornamentals trade. TCM takes way more horses than the trade, last number I saw, and I can't remember its source, was that about 2 % of seahorses harvested are for the aquarium trade, the rest are mainly for TCM and the curio trade. Ever been to a beach shop in Florida and seen a bin full of dried sea stars and sand dollars and seahorses? Makes me SICK... but it's not the aquarium trade that's killing them, it's the curio trade. People who will pay $2 for a souvenir....
But I digress......Naesco, if you're going to ban any species that can be captive propagated, how are you going to support those fishers that you put out of work?
Jenn
First of all Happy July 4th to you all.
You raised the Newfoundland cod fishery collapse. It is a good example.
If the politicans had the balls to curtail the industry while there were still some fish, there would be more fish and more fishers and less unemployment.
I do not care whether there are unemployed fishers in the Philippines anymore than I care that there are unemployed coal miners in the US.
However, I do care for an environmentally friendly and sustainable industry which is more than the industry itself cares. That is why I fully support the immediate ban on the import of wild seahorse.
You raised the Newfoundland cod fishery collapse. It is a good example.
If the politicans had the balls to curtail the industry while there were still some fish, there would be more fish and more fishers and less unemployment.
I do not care whether there are unemployed fishers in the Philippines anymore than I care that there are unemployed coal miners in the US.
However, I do care for an environmentally friendly and sustainable industry which is more than the industry itself cares. That is why I fully support the immediate ban on the import of wild seahorse.
Seahorses are in no danger of being over fished by this hobby...........they are only collected in about 10% of the Pacific islands.......80 to 90% of all the islands in the Pacific have NO hobby collection taking place at all........Not Coral, aquarium fish or seahorses......... Even in countries like Fiji ...where collection does occur, collectors only fish about twenty islands out of almost 1000! {and liverock from only ONE island} THATS two percent! Even less in Tonga,Vanatu Cook Solomons, Even Hawaii allows collection of Marine fish only in a small area {Kona coast} and this coastline area represents about 2% of the Hawaiian island chain coast line! Get a grip, This hobby has never been show to have any effects on fish populations outside the small collection areas................... anywhere in the Ocean................... :roll:naesco":3irofdxs said:
Man who can't get it up, needs dried ground up sea horse to help get it up for him.
Thats the problem, not some one who wants to keep it alive. Our trade isn't the only thing pushing items onto the CITES list. We don't bring in very many sea cucumbers, but they came up in CITES talks as something that needed to be addressed. Why? Well not because my 2 tiger tails, more like the several hundread pounds sold in China town week.
Thats the problem, not some one who wants to keep it alive. Our trade isn't the only thing pushing items onto the CITES list. We don't bring in very many sea cucumbers, but they came up in CITES talks as something that needed to be addressed. Why? Well not because my 2 tiger tails, more like the several hundread pounds sold in China town week.
naesco":1rstzuqq said:
Hence your shortsightedness. If the fishers in PI can't collect ornamentals, what do you think they will do? Not likely that anybody's going to pop a factory up over there for them to work in (and what makes you think they will want to work there, anyway?) Fishing is their way of life. There is no welfare, no government assistance, so the fisherfolk will turn to other, perhaps even more destructive (ie: food fishing w/cyanide or blasting) fishing practices. They will have to do whatever they must in order to support themselves and their families. Can you blame them? I sure as heck don't. There's no pogey office, no food stamps, no food banks, no rent-to-income housing. How would YOU manage?
Don't hold your breath for the "Almighty Government" to "fix it".... Naesco, you have to think outside the Canadian box. Not all governments are as transparent and *cough* honest as those in Canada and the US. Perhaps you need to visit some of these places.... for a little "reality check".
You may not give a damn about these folks, but since they support my livelihood and they are my brother man, I DO care. Bringing back the cod fishery - perhaps if Newfoundland and evirons had managed their own fishery better, it wouldn't have collapsed. That might not be a very popular statement to make, but if my memory serves, scientists warned that things would go down hill but everybody fished harder and faster to scoop up their piece of the pie, then POOF! No more cod. I'm saddened for those fishermen in Newfoundland because they are faced with the same problems as PI could face - too many fishers, no fish, no other source of income ('cept the dole)... what's a person to do? Many moved to the mainland - that's not an option for many PI fishermen - they can't get EI to help them.... don't plug our North American government/social structure into another country - more often than not it won't fit.
Gresham: not just "getting it up"..... the man who owns the shop down the mall from me, when he saw my sign go up (there is a seahorse in my logo) he pointed, and said, "Fix back pain, 3 days!" He also said it would fix any kidney or stomach pain in 3 days. (Made mental note not to leave Kuong unattended near seahorse tank....). Kuong is from Viet Nam. There are many uses for seahorses in TCM. It's a fact that seahorses have much more 'street value' dead and dried than alive in somebody's fish tank.
Jenn
naesco":3qyitf3c said:
wayne,
From what I read they really didn't have to be put on CITES Appendix II. Someone proposed it, and basically no one stepped forward to oppose it. There was really no information presented that demonstrated that the pet trade was stressing populations. I believe my source of information came from a PJAC Alert.
BTW Jenn is winning big. Your love for Socialism doesn't play all that well in the "land of the free and the home of the brave."
GreshamH":2oisjc3h said:
The biggest problem is that industry continues to blame others including, the fish food industry, pollution and even mother nature (run off etc.) instead of stopping what they are doing in destroying the reefs and its inhabitants.
On this Socialism thing, I should make myself clear.
Industry it is your source of income now and in the future. If you continue your dated attititude in approaching issues like the seahorse issue and more importantly the use of cyanide on the reefs, Governments will step in and do something.
The way you can keep the "Socialist reef huggers" from ruining your business is to do something about it NOW BEFORE they do.
Your denial that there are problems and your inability to organize yourselves together to protect the reef and your business will do you in not some phantom socialist north of your border.
Industry it is your source of income now and in the future. If you continue your dated attititude in approaching issues like the seahorse issue and more importantly the use of cyanide on the reefs, Governments will step in and do something.
The way you can keep the "Socialist reef huggers" from ruining your business is to do something about it NOW BEFORE they do.
Your denial that there are problems and your inability to organize yourselves together to protect the reef and your business will do you in not some phantom socialist north of your border.
naesco":9eregg2o said:
There are times when I would agree with you - but not this time. In fact it scares me that I'm actually in agreement with Kalk - that's twice in 30 days, very scary indeed 8O Horses are NOT a cyanide target and to my knowledge collectors are not using destructive means to collect them - (although I've heard unconfirmed stories of collection using bleach, but from sketchy sources), they are very slow movers, you can simply pluck them off their holdfasts. Some are caught as a bycatch of food fishing, yes - especially in trawl nets, but the problem there is the food fishing, they aren't fishing specifically for seahorses in that way. Stopping the trade in by-catch seahorses wouldn't stop the trawl nets, you'd have to stop the food-fishing.
There are statistics everwhere regarding the collection of seahorses and how many go to the aquarium trade and how many go to the curio and TCM trade. If you've ever done any work with seahorses and researched them, every book every paper, every project, NGO and whatnot all agree that the vast majority of horses go to those and not the aquarium hobby. In fact, the hobby is what has driven the movement to captive propagation, but I also know that some breeders feed both the aquarium trade AND the TCM demand. In reality, breeders would make a lot more money on their horses selling them for TCM, because they are worth a lot more dead by the kilo, than alive by the individual.
In this case, as I mentioned above, I believe that the legislation as written, as it pertains to seahorses and CITES, could be more damaging than helpful, and could unduly stress the larger species of seahorse, as they are collected or propagated for the aquarium trade. Personally I think that captive propagated seahorses should be exempt, as they do not factor into the ocean's ecology at all, except perhaps to reduce the trade in wild horses. I would hate to see captive breeders and the fruits of their labours, go out of business or have costs go up to prohibitive levels because of this. IMO it would undo a lot of good work that has been done.
Jenn
naesco":20ctzd0k said:
What government? Please specify? The American government, Canadian government, Philippine government? Your ubiquitous references to "government" are most amusing.
As to "dated attitude"... umm do you not read any of my posts? I've been screaming for accountability, crusading for net-caught, sustainably harvested fishes, I only buy what I believe to be net caughts, I gave CASH MONEY to the MSI Net Fund -- I contribute to this forum, ARC, MASNA and I educate hobbyists in my shop. Just how am I working against reform, please?
Jenn
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