Are captive raised fish = to cattle?

[Bill2]

With the upcoming Nemo movie and the surge of clownfish sales i forsee, should captive bred/raised fish be viewed as cattle. I know this is a stretch but I was thinking, does the type of animal determine our views of it's impending doom? Sure you can say cows aren't anyone's pets but if you have ever been to a county fair some of those 4H kids sure look like their cows, pigs, sheep, etc are their pets. Sure you can say the meat we eat is raised by someone else, well various companies and people use breeding and rearing fish as income. Do they see a pet in every single fish that goes through, probably not.

I have to admit that I am less concerned when a fish that has never seen the ocean dies, I don't know why. Those feelings probalby go hand in hand with the fact I like the fact petco sells captive bred clownfish for 9.99 because I know the fish they sell/kill have had 0 impact upon the reef.

Am I right? Doubt it

Just food for thought.

 

[Anonymous]

I think a stronger parallel would be puppy mills. Disney caused quite the rage quite neatly, thank you, with their re-release of 101 Dalmations. A stupid dog to begin with (yeah, can ya tell how much I like 'em?), made even WORSE by those breeders.

Although, on an intelligence level, I'm not sure how clownfishes rate next to cattle--the ones I've met were not at all intelligent (cattle, that is).

 

[Bill2]

Good point on the puppy mills. I do think that breeding facilities and people to take better care of their brood stock than the pictures i've seen of puppy mills.

Hey you've seen the commercials about california cheese. Them cows can talk! even sing!

 

[JennM]

Although, on an intelligence level, I'm not sure how clownfishes rate next to cattle--the ones I've met were not at all intelligent (cattle, that is).

So bovine cattle aren't the sharpest tacks in the box.... I'll grant you that, but PIGS are a whole other ball game. I like a good ham sammich ... but pigs are highly intelligent. Given clean conditions, they stay clean too - and keep their quarters clean - can even be housebroken or litter trained (like Vietnamese potbellied pigs can be) -- some even keep them as pets.

Fish breeders cull. Nature culls Her own way.... but it doesn't take a film craze to result in 9900 dead Nemos and 100 live ones in 6 months -- this happens all the time within the trade -- cyanide caught Nemos probably end up with a similar statistic in 6 months. Retailers and Etailers who don't ask questions before they bag 'em up probably have similar stats, or worse, even with farm raised livestock. I have a maintenance customer -- he's a "big tank owner" not a "hobbyist" who has a 225 g tank, which I clean every other Monday -- I just got back from taking care of it, in fact (and it's looking schweet..... but I digress...) About 2 months ago, this guy went out to the grand opening sale at the new big chain pet store in the 'hood, and bought himself 8 little Nemos for $8 apiece -- nobody asked him what he already had in the tank, nobody tested his water (well I do every other Monday... but nobody asked him what his params were...) they just bagged him up 8 little false percs and happily took his $64 plus tax. How many people have a tank or tanks that could comfortably accomodate 8 clownfish? Nobody asked questions! The fish didn't last a week. Why? Not sure -- could have been the Paddlefin Wrasse, could have been the established pair of CB Tomato Clowns, or any other of the established and territorial fish this guy has purchased over the years. Could have been a number of things...but one by one, these little fish were picked off, and when I went to service the tank, I had no idea he'd even bought them until he fessed up to me - I just shook my head. He lamented the $64 he "lost" -- his wife whacked him and reminded him that there were 8 LIVES lost - nevermind the money. (I bit my tongue, but I did agree with her...) This is not a unique experience -- it goes on in stores and online EVERY DAY. Lots of people do lots of stupid things. That's a FACT.

The ethics of this industry/hobby are very complex. I've spent just as much time NOT selling something to somebody, as I have asking questions and making recommendations. I don't just "bag it up" unless I know all I can know about the the buyer's capability, the tank, its current inhabitants, and etc. Once in a while somebody won't tell me the "whole truth" either - - because they know they won't get the answer they want to hear, and sometimes they will keep going from store to store UNTIL they get the answer they want to hear -- but who do they call to straighten out the mess? Uh huh.... they call me.

There are very few simple answers to the problems facing the industry. Each time a solution is offered, a whole new set of issues presents itself. If each person in his/her link of the chain did everything they could to perform as ethically as possible, the problems would begin to sort themselves out.

I can't stop every hobbyist/tank owner from doing something inappropriate, but I can look myself in the mirror each day knowing that I'm doing all that I can to help my customers do the right thing.

If we don't want blood on our hands, we're in the wrong business.

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

It's all about greed and lying. So, in other words, it's a microcosm of America. You can't escape it, unfortunately, since that's where we live.

Peace,

Chip

 

[John_Brandt]

I have to admit that I am less concerned when a fish that has never seen the ocean dies, I don't know why. Those feelings probalby go hand in hand with the fact I like the fact petco sells captive bred clownfish for 9.99 because I know the fish they sell/kill have had 0 impact upon the reef.

Am I right? Doubt it

Just food for thought.

Bill,

Anemonefish that are collected responsibly and non-destructively would have little negative impact on a wild reef. These fish are a highly-renewable resource. I'm not suggesting that wild-caught fish are preferable to cultured, just stating a fact.

 

[John_Brandt]

Jenn wrote: "...cyanide caught Nemos probably end up with a similar statistic in 6 months."

For the sake of accuracy Nemo is a clownfish, and clownfish would not typically be collected with cyanide any place any time.

 

[dpetruescu]

Great catle analogy. It would be nice if one of these days, someone would start a competition on farm raised fish, as they do with fresh water fish. This way, kids, adults and especially breeders could compete to have the best line of fish they can have.

As they do in catle, dogs, pigeons and just about every other animal, including freshwater fish. Maybe some breeders would be interested in breeding for certain quality and not quantity...

Maybe it will take some time, but why not...

 

[JennM]

Jenn wrote: "...cyanide caught Nemos probably end up with a similar statistic in 6 months."

For the sake of accuracy Nemo is a clownfish, and clownfish would not typically be collected with cyanide any place any time.

Point taken -- however the comparison I was making was more a generalization of fish in the aquarium trade per se, versus any specific specie. Can't compare cb blue tangs, because to my knowledge there aren't any, at least not any that are widely available...

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

i find it interesting to hear the opinion that culturing fish 'artificially' (read commercially aquacultured) makes a fish less 'valuable' to the purchaser- and i never was able to accept that the method of procurement is what determines the value, or importance, of the animal to the purchaser

it's the purchaser's attitude towards other creatures to begin with, that is the issue here, methinks- and one of the keys w/fish/aquariums seems to be the lack of 'contact' that's able to be established w/aquatic pets-they don't bark, and their environment is a foriegn one to us, being the terrestrial air breathers that we are (though that hasn't stopped the same type of apathy/lassez faire(sp?) attitudes towards other types of habitat/ animal population's destruction)

a very large portion of fw fish are commercially propagated on farm operations, big and small-most of the fish in my fw tanks never saw a 'wild' ray of sunshine-doesn't make me appreciate them any less-and some remain just as 'challenging' to work with (example-discus)

i think that education of the customer to appreciate the animal will always be the key

most of the customers that i deal with have no clue as to how fish get into the store, or where they come from-some treat 'em w/the respect they deserve, some treat 'em like shoes

one thing i have noticed though-sometimes a customers gets more appreciative and enthusiastic about becoming a hobbyist when they hear that a fish is, or can be, propagated in captivity-there are also other advantages to captive propagation aside from relaxing collection pressures on wild stocks-captive raised species are often much better at living in aquariums, and have better track records re: diseases and parasites

i've raised (literally) millions of fish through captive propagation(could actually be measured in tonnage ) - it hasn't led me to appreciate them any less as a fascinating life form -whether they be ornamentals, or food fish

i have something spawning here at home every week-and each time it's a thrill -has been for over 30 years

i also believe that slowly but surely, captive propagation will be the main method of procurement for most, if not all ornamentals, and that the propagation industry will explode in the next decade or so, as more and more pressures show their final fruits in, and on, the environment.

the argument may then become-will captive propagation negatively affect the awareness of the public as to the importance of still needing to practice sound environmental practices to save the wild stuff :idea:

i.e.-will some start to think that saving the reefs isn't necessary, since we can raise 'em at home anyway?

all these issues always seem to come back to educating the public, and changing the source attitude of thinking that only people are important

too many folks think tomatoes actually come from the supermarket :wink:

i think watching any animal one cares for feel happy and comfortable enough to reproduce in the artificial environment we provide for it is an event that never falls short of being miraculous :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

IMO a pet is a pet however there is always a degree of comfort, or value-added in knowing the animal wasn't from the wild.

 

[Bill2]

it's the purchaser's attitude towards other creatures to begin with, that is the issue here, methinks- and one of the keys w/fish/aquariums seems to be the lack of 'contact' that's able to be established w/aquatic pets-they don't bark, and their environment is a foriegn one to us, being the terrestrial air breathers that we are (though that hasn't stopped the same type of apathy/lassez faire(sp?) attitudes towards other types of habitat/ animal population's destruction)

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i think watching any animal one cares for feel happy and comfortable enough to reproduce in the artificial environment we provide for it is an event that never falls short of being miraculous :wink:

So basically I'm getting the jist that because we view it as a pet and don't eat it then we should regard it as more important than say a cow or a pig.. mmmmm bacon

Anyone one want to start selling ocellaris sushi

BTW Many of the species of fish we keep are eaten every day. How do we feel about those?

Save the Cull! (for those of you that took this serious it was a joke. My point was we place soo much emphasis on making sure a fish goes to a proper environment but we fail to remember their little brothers and sisters that became fish food)

No side is right or wrong. Imo this a decision that must be made personally. I for one see these farmed fish as exactly that. Just because they are nicer looking than tilapia doesn't make them any more worthwhile.