Is it time to blow the whistle on industry?

[naesco]

Cyanide caught fish continue to be imported and industry is doing nothing about it.
Impossible to keep species continue to be imported and industry is doing nothing about it.
Industry contributes nothing and does nothing about reforming.
Those in industry who believe in reform are powerless to do anything and fight amongst themselves rather than pushing reform in a unified and positive way.

Is it time to blow the whistle on industry?
For the purpose of this discussion industry is defined as the importers and wholesalers stateside; those responsible for bringing fish in.

 

[Anonymous]

Who are you talking about?
Define Industry.

 

[Anonymous]

Is it time to blow the whistle on industry?

...and whom will you tell, your mom?

You mean report the entire hobby to the government?

Peace,

Chip

 

[Anonymous]

Personal experience: say something, say anything, and be prepared.

<sm, wondering if the term "assbag" means anything to anyone>

 

[naesco]

Who are you talking about?
Define Industry.

Thanks for your post.
I would define industry for the purpose of this discussion as the importers and wholesalers stateside and any other part of the industry responsible for bringing in fish.

 

[naesco]

Chip, Seamaiden

My question is a serious question with serious consequences for industry and our hobby.

You have the right to post what you want to but I would really appreciate your addressing the question I posed please
Thank you

 

[Anonymous]

Naesco,

I *was* being serious. I wanted clarification as to whom you'd be 'reporting' the industry to. That's why I asked this :

You mean report the entire hobby to the government?

Can you answer that, please?

Peace,

Chip

 

[naesco]

Naesco,

I *was* being serious. I wanted clarification as to whom you'd be 'reporting' the industry to. That's why I asked this :

You mean report the entire hobby to the government?

Can you answer that, please?

Peace,

Chip

Chip, good question.
Quite frankly, I am not sure yet. I am looking for input from everyone. Please provide it.
Please post, or email or PM me in the strictest confidence.
Thank you.

 

[Anonymous]

I would define industry for the purpose of this discussion as the importers and wholesalers stateside and any other part of the industry responsible for bringing in fish.

And how do you plan to prove that they are doing something illegal?
Remember there is no cyanide test yet, not even for MAC.

Who do you think will care about the Industry?

And in the grand scheme of things (ie all "Industries" that exist on the entire planet), do you think that this one is the worst? or even in the top ten, of things the US government should care about with regards to global environmental issues?

 

[naesco]

I would define industry for the purpose of this discussion as the importers and wholesalers stateside and any other part of the industry responsible for bringing in fish.

And how do you plan to prove that they are doing something illegal?
Remember there is no cyanide test yet, not even for MAC.

Who do you think will care about the Industry?

And in the grand scheme of things (ie all "Industries" that exist on the entire planet), do you think that this one is the worst? or even in the top ten, of things the US government should care about with regards to global environmental issues?

Rover, the CDT is around the corner?

I care, Rover. The industry may not be the worst but it happens to be the one that I am involved in and it does not make me feel good doing nothing about it.
What about you? Would you like to see the end of the use of cyanide by industry? Would you like to see an end to the import of impossible to keep fish (the USL)?

 

[Anonymous]

Chip, Seamaiden

My question is a serious question with serious consequences for industry and our hobby.

You have the right to post what you want to but I would really appreciate your addressing the question I posed please
Thank you

<irritated> :x

No duh, naes. Apparently you don't get what I was saying. Tell ya what, why don't YOU blow the whistle, mkay? That way you can be the assbag.

 

[naesco]

Chip, Seamaiden

My question is a serious question with serious consequences for industry and our hobby.

You have the right to post what you want to but I would really appreciate your addressing the question I posed please
Thank you

<irritated> :x

No duh, naes. Apparently you don't get what I was saying. Tell ya what, why don't YOU blow the whistle, mkay? That way you can be the assbag.

I still don't understand either of your posts. :?

 

[Bryan Thompson]

Naesco,

Why are you so obsessed with cyanide? You really have to lighten up. Yes I know what it does to reefs, and I know what it does to the fish, and I know what it does to the divers. You probably don’t have the foggiest clue the way things work in third world countries. The either collect a ton of stuff or get beat, fired, or loose a child.

I agree that cyanide is a bad thing but your passion would be better spent on the kids that are being sold sex slaves, the billions of dollars of drugs that are killing our children or hundreds of other problems.

Remember make sure someone is willing to listen if you are going to blow a whistle or you are just blowing hot air.

Bryan

 

[naesco]

Fair comment Brian.
I have a great deal of patience for those that listen, set a chart for change and I will help them along the way even if they slip backwards.
But I am not going to sit back and allow what is happening to continue much longer. No one should.

I am waiting to hear from industry.

 

[Anonymous]

LOL man you are neurotic sometimes - I half expect to see some sorta unabomber manifesto and packages mailed to Inglewood.

lay off the starbucks a bit - reform never happens overnight.

 

[clarionreef]

Bryan,
Naescos heart is in the right place. The mind...er, I mean the choice of tactics to advance the agenda is what some have issue with.
As Naes has pointed out, there is a smorgasbord of issues to worry about but this one is OURS. It is infesting OUR trade and we are collectively responsible for the routine choices that continually perpetuate it.
We support and subsidize the 40 some marinelife dealers in Indonesia and the Philippines that bring this shame into our house... and I find it fascinating...absolutely fascinating by the near absolute degree that our advanced, high minded industry in the West has sold out to it.
By virtue of our lack of quarrel with the cyanide trade we are in fact accomplices to it.
Why worry about people who want the world to be a better place? ...and who care about things beyond themselves so much that they'll stand up for it. Aren't you tired of fair weather do-gooders whos passion extends as far as their petty little self interest begins? Whos idealism extends as far as the grant lasts...whos smile is determined by the prospect of sales...?
What do you care passionately about?
I for one find it refreshing to find people with motivations that are not economically determined. Since many who criticize and scoff at people of virtue and passion often believe in little more than them selves...their car, their money, their career, their house etc. they lack the credibility to question those who think and act selflessly.
If you can suggest improvement in tactics of social influence and a better way to reform our selves...by all means do so.
But to question simple virtue? Virtue in need of refinement is still a hundred times more praiseworthy than polished greed and refined selfishness.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

I care, Rover. The industry may not be the worst but it happens to be the one that I am involved in and it does not make me feel good doing nothing about it.

You know what the quickest way to ending all air pollution would be? Outlawing gasoline. But I don't see that happening.

What about you? Would you like to see the end of the use of cyanide by industry? Would you like to see an end to the import of impossible to keep fish (the USL)?

Yes. I would like to see an end to cyanide use. But it ain't goona happen until the Philipinos using decide they don't want to, or find something better. What am I doing about it? I'm careful what I order and who I order from, and I make sure my customers know, (partly as education and partly as a way to distinguish myself from the competition :wink: ).

As for the USL, you'll have to convince me that keeping pretty fish in glass boxes until they die a few weeks or months later is somehow different from scooping them up with a net and whacking them on the head, and then eating them. A fish is a fish, whether it is appreciated for it's beaty or appreciated for its taste. Once collected, it's never going back, regardless if it lives 30 more seconds or 30 more days. Opening up this hobby to someone's judgements on cruelty and humaneness is a dangerous pandoras box in my opinion. It makes much more sense to pay attention to the sustainability issue regarding reef health and what may be taken while still maintaining integrity within populations on the reef, than to worry about how long something that will never go back will exist after it has been taken. If you can harvest 3000 Naso tangs a month with out diminishing the population, what difference does it make how long they live, especially given the fact that many of them will end up on the plates of those who caught them later that night? It's like arguing against beef or poultry because some of them are kept as pets.

 

[Anonymous]

I care, Rover. The industry may not be the worst but it happens to be the one that I am involved in and it does not make me feel good doing nothing about it.

You know what the quickest way to ending all air pollution would be? Outlawing gasoline. But I don't see that happening.

What about you? Would you like to see the end of the use of cyanide by industry? Would you like to see an end to the import of impossible to keep fish (the USL)?

Yes. I would like to see an end to cyanide use. But it ain't goona happen until the Philipinos using decide they don't want to, or find something better. What am I doing about it? I'm careful what I order and who I order from, and I make sure my customers know, (partly as education and partly as a way to distinguish myself from the competition :wink: ).

As for the USL, you'll have to convince me that keeping pretty fish in glass boxes until they die a few weeks or months later is somehow different from scooping them up with a net and whacking them on the head, and then eating them. A fish is a fish, whether it is appreciated for it's beaty or appreciated for its taste. Once collected, it's never going back, regardless if it lives 30 more seconds or 30 more days. Opening up this hobby to someone's judgements on cruelty and humaneness is a dangerous pandoras box in my opinion. It makes much more sense to pay attention to the sustainability issue regarding reef health and what may be taken while still maintaining integrity within populations on the reef, than to worry about how long something that will never go back will exist after it has been taken. If you can harvest 3000 Naso tangs a month with out diminishing the population, what difference does it make how long they live, especially given the fact that many of them will end up on the plates of those who caught them later that night? It's like arguing against beef or poultry because some of them are kept as pets.

well said, Rover

 

[naesco]

LOL man you are neurotic sometimes - I half expect to see some sorta unabomber manifesto and packages mailed to Inglewood.

lay off the starbucks a bit - reform never happens overnight.

Brilliant, MickAv8r, "A Manifesto" a statement of demands for Industry Reform" which will be presented to Industry.

This Manifesto might include the following
1. Incorporation of a CDT by industry and a timeline for its implementation.
2. An Unsuitable Species List (USL) and a timeline for its review and adoption by industry.
3. Training; a plan, people, a timeline and a budget funded by industry.

[thinking out loud]
Representatives of reform will meet with representatives of industry (importers/wholesalers, P/I exporters and possibly other interested parties (Eric Borneman comes to mind) and draft??, discuss?? adopt?? a Manifesto

What do you think?
I am looking for ideas and advice on how it can work not reasons why it won't work.

 

[PeterIMA]

Comments about CDT and NGO bashing.

First, the word CDT stands for Cyanide Detection Testing. The IMA coined the term associated with the CDT laboratories run by IMA under contract to the Philippine Bureau of Fishereis and Aquatic Resources (BFAR) from 1993 to 2001. The same CDT test used by IMA is now being used by BFAR. But, BFAR is more focused on CDT for food fish leaving open the problem of how to regulate the use of cyanide by collectors capturing fish for the aquarium trade. Don't hold your breath for the MAC's CDT.

This forum has been infomative. Despite, several million dollars spent by foundations like Packard, MacArthur, and by US-AID cyanide use is increasing rather than decreasing. The paper by James Cervino conclusively shows that cyanide use kills corals. However, the trade and hobby does not seem to care. The MAC has not proven to be effective.

So, I agree with Wayne Ryan (Naesco) the trade needs to either quickly reform (either by raising funds for net-training or for cyanide testing or both) or be shut down. (Wayne as lawyer by the way.) The US government seeing so little cooperation and progress for reform from the trade and hobby (despite the Coral Reef Task Force efforts and the sponsoring of two Marine Ornamentals Conferences) can easily justify stronger legal measures against the trade at the US end (through the Lacey Act and other legislation). The trade has can only blame itself for the past 20 years of stonewalling and indifference.

Having helped found the IMA and having spent over $100,000 of my own funds and having raised funds for net-training and for cyanide testing, I realize the futility of dealing with the aquarium trade. Other than a few companies run by Steve Robinson and Mary Middlebrook, the trade has no conscience and has no redeeming qualities. It functions for financial gain by importers rather than the collectors in the countries of origin. It will not be long until the Philippines and Indonesial finally realize that the gains (to some exporters) do not justify the losses resulting from reef destruction and declining fishery yields. They do not justify the continuing existence of an aquarium trade.


The way to fund net-training is though the trade donating funds to an NGO like CORL or the NGO presently being created by Ferdinand Cruz. My suggestion to the trade is get behind them now to reform collection practices.



Peter Rubec