Is it time to blow the whistle on industry?

[Anonymous]

It will not be long until the Philippines and Indonesial finally realize that the gains (to some exporters) do not justify the losses resulting from reef destuction and declining fishery yields. They do not justify the continuing existence of an aquarium trade.

But doesn't awareness of the possibilities of increased benefits with a sustainable trade come along with that realization? Would the Philipine and Indonesian governments just walk away from an entire industry rather than simply taking control of it? There is an awful lot of money at stake to someone who can get it done right. Are you sure that they want the trade completely shut down? But I agree with you. Until they realize their situation, and how much control they have over it, nothing will change.

Please take this message as my manifesto against the aquarium trade. I plan to see the cyanide test for thiocyanate being refined by Ohio State University (OSU) used to prosecute importers in the USA. I have already provided the existing CDT procedure to the Swiss government. You can expect to see it applied soon throughout Europe.

Again, do you think that the wholesalers here are just going to admit defeat and close down there doors because of a little test? Businesses that they have spent years developing and growing? Businesses that they have put their money and time and blood and sweat and tears into getting of the ground? What makes you think the industry won't just react to the new regulations and testing? That's the problem though isn't it? This ins't a progressive industry. It's a reactionary one. The Industry will react and change when it has a reason to, or when there are better alternatives, or when it's makes good business sense too (ie there is money to be made). Because a country across the world is willing to rape and pillage it's own natural resources in order to feed their families isn't a reason to up and change. We aren't forcing them into anything. They makes changes, we make changes. The ball is in their court isn't it?

 

[Anonymous]

Great points, Rover. The last line is the most important one. I mean, really, what difference are we going to make here in the US if the reform has to begin with the government in a foreign country? We can't start it, so we need to stop bitching and arguing about it until we get our chance to do something that will make a difference. The only way it could be jump-started here is if every major wholesaler bonded together and made demands to start it. That isn't going to happen.

Peace,

Chip

 

[Anonymous]

And whilst busy addressing cyanide, the issue of HANDLING is completely ignored. :roll:

However, let's address the cyanide issue. Again, to whom would this be "reported", and who would enforce whatever laws are being violated?? At this point, I haven't heard that you, Naes, are giving up your pretty tangs. Whereas I, for the same reasons you won't find me at Yellowstone or Yosemite, don't keep ANY saltwater fish. My hands are pretty clean at this point.

What part of my post did you not get (amazed that you're a lawyer)? I spoke up recently about something I saw, and it came back to bite me (and someone whose friendship I hold dear) in the ass. What really galled me was the implication that I was not telling the truth, that I didn't really see what I saw, not being called an assbag. (Ms. Swart also galled me with her response.) Do you still not get it? If not, and if, as I suspect, this is how you always are, you'll need to be hit over the head with it to get the idea across. Who is going to blow the whistle, who will cover that person's ass, and to whom will the whistle be blown, eh? And once that whistle is blown, who is going to do what, exactly, about it?

I'm thankful Rover is here, I find his responses to not only be very diplomatic, but well thought out and worded. Chip is speaking from experience, he works the trade and understands well what the trade/hobby is up against. Pretty tangs, mate, pretty tangs!

 

[Anonymous]

Well can I steer the conversation away from CDT and NGOs and ask what everyone thinks about the USL ? This sounds like an idea that would not cripple the hobby but might be a positive step in raising awareness if applied to at least the North American market (correct me if I'm wrong but we still comprise the bulk of the marine ornamental trade). The question for me is who decides what species are unsuitable , do we have more than anecdotal evidence to back these assertions up and who is going to do the enforcement?


As for me, if I truly believed giving up my fish would save the reefs I'd do it in a heartbeat. This is wishful thinking - even if all marine ornamental trade was stopped worldwide the reefs would still be in danger from food fishing , pollution and coastal development. The fact that the trade exists in my mind may actually have made these reefs have more value to the collectors than before.

As for Rover's analogy that cars cause pollution (among other things) and what are you going to do? Well you have to start somewhere, sure there are starving children, sure there are tyrranical governments and ecological mayhem planetwide. That doesn't mean you stop striving for a solution to this problem - saving the reefs - you have to do something and if this is dear to your heart then take a stand, get informed and work for effective and meaningful change.

Sorry for sidetracking the thread but the econazi in me has felt the same way as Naesco many times I just don't think an antagonistic relationship between hobbyists , wholesalers , retailers, governments is going to get us anywhere. Maybe someone needs to drop a turd in the punchbowl I don't know - I think that's what SM was stating - I'd do it in a heartbeat if I though it would work but I don't - we need to start small and work our way up.

 

[devils advocate]

"Because a country across the world is willing to rape and pillage it's own natural resources in order to feed their families isn't a reason to up and change. We aren't forcing them into anything. They makes changes, we make changes. The ball is in their court isn't it?" - Rover

The ball may be in their court, but we are on the other side of the net staring at their faces. We are in the game with them so it doesn't absolve us from any responsibility. Don't just blame the Philippines or Indonesia. They need a place to sell their juiced fish and a large portion of it ends up in the good 'ol USA.

Just like the guy driving the get away car, he is still an accomplice to the bank robbery.

 

[naesco]

Rover
you stated that industry will change when it has a reason to.
If I were in industry I would be carefully reviewing this thread and consider each comments and think about the proposed Manifesto (near the bottom of page one). The reason is the end of their livelihood.

Marillion
With respect I disagree. The P/I exporters have the most to lose and will be the first to get out their cheque books to fund training rather than risk closure of the American market.

Seamaiden
OK add "standards for handling and packaging" as an item to the Manifesto
This is a very serious thread and I think your points would be better made without the commentary. Please preview before you post. Thanks.

Techno
1 1/2 years ago, this forum came up with a USL with 45 species listed. Industry was presented with it and agreed to the blue spotted octopus.
Techo you need to embrace this manifesto. By doing so you may not get 45 on the list but you may get 10 and that is the start you are looking for. To do otherwise is to do nothing IMO.

Thanks for the emails. What are your thoughts on the Manifesto idea?

 

[Anonymous]

Don't just blame the Philippines or Indonesia. They need a place to sell their juiced fish and a large portion of it ends up in the good 'ol USA.

Just like the guy driving the get away car, he is still an accomplice to the bank robbery.

I agree. But you don't declare victory when all you did was catch the driver.

This problem will exist until they decide to do something about it.

This is wishful thinking - even if all marine ornamental trade was stopped worldwide the reefs would still be in danger from food fishing , pollution and coastal development. The fact that the trade exists in my mind may actually have made these reefs have more value to the collectors than before

You are exactly right, and that is exactly the reason why shutting down the trade is a very bad idea. (I'm going to start a new thread to discuss the USL.)

 

[devils advocate]

Catching the driver is not victory, but as it stands now, not a single accomplice to the robbery is being chased. This is the problem. There is no disincentive to change the status quo.

Chase and change those at this end of the chain and there may be change at the other end. To sit back and say it is all up to "them" when importers are continuing to purchase their product seems only to validate the cyanide trade here.

 

[Anonymous]

Chase and change those at this end of the chain and there may be change at the other end. To sit back and say it is all up to "them" when importers are continuing to purchase their product seems only to validate the cyanide trade here.

I disagree. Chase and change things on this end, put a halt to the hobby, on the only end where people are striving for improvement and you'll doom it all. When will the US stop driving such gas guzzling cars? Not when we make it illegal to import oil, but as soon as a better option shows up. There has to be an alterantive to change to, or you end up accelerating the current damage, and losing what little control you originally had, because you've already jumped ship.

 

[naesco]

Catching the driver is not victory, but as it stands now, not a single accomplice to the robbery is being chased. This is the problem. There is no disincentive to change the status quo.

Chase and change those at this end of the chain and there may be change at the other end. To sit back and say it is all up to "them" when importers are continuing to purchase their product seems only to validate the cyanide trade here.

Well put. I have sat back long enough and am not willing to do nothing any more. Others might not be quite there yet but I believe we all share the same frustrations.

Devil do you think the Manifesto idea is a good last chance effort on our part to demand change?

 

[Anonymous]

Naesco, you still don't get it, do you?

 

[Anonymous]

This Manifesto might include the following
1. Incorporation of a CDT by industry and a timeline for its implementation. Who will implement? Who will enforce?
2. An Unsuitable Species List (USL) and a timeline for its review and adoption by industry. Who will implement? Who will enforce?
3. Training; a plan, people, a timeline and a budget funded by industry.
Who will implement? Who will enforce?


[thinking out loud]
Representatives of reform (Who decides who this will be) will meet with representatives of industry (Who will this be and how will you get them together?) (importers/wholesalers, P/I exporters and possibly other interested parties (Eric Borneman comes to mind) and draft??, discuss?? adopt?? a Manifesto

 

[devils advocate]

Rover,

When did I say to put a halt to the hobby? The point I am trying to make is that you can't just point your finger at Indo and PI and say it is only up to them. Change is required by the industry as a whole, including the hobbyist. Why can't change be forced at this end or is it that you can't admit that we are part of the problem?

WRT gas guzzlers....there are alternatives. People choose to ignore them (much like the net caught fish that are available to buy cheaper cyanide caught fish). People ignore the more fuel efficient vehicles that are on the market to buy a large SUV that will never leave pavement much less even be put into four wheel drive. Why doesn't the gov't close the fuel consumption loopholes that are allowed by the manufacturers for SUV's?

 

[mkirda]

When will the US stop driving such gas guzzling cars? Not when we make it illegal to import oil, but as soon as a better option shows up. There has to be an alterantive to change to...

Rover,

I thought about this analogy a long time.
It is not a good one.

The US government could very easily influence our habits by changing our public polices. Add a $10,000 environmental damage tax to SUVs, then use it to subsidize hybrid car costs to bring them down in price to match conventional cars. Or raise the gas taxes by a dollar or two a gallon to have the same effect. (They won't do it because they have no political will.)

How would you do this for net-caught fish? Subsidize one exporter's prices? You can't tax salt or water or fish food... The analogy breaks down...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Anonymous]

When did I say to put a halt to the hobby? The point I am trying to make is that you can't just point your finger at Indo and PI and say it is only up to them. Change is required by the industry as a whole, including the hobbyist. Why can't change be forced at this end or is it that you can't admit that we are part of the problem?

This hobby will never be "regulated" by the government. It will either be shut down completely or left alone completely. There are far more important things for the feds t be worried about that make far more money, than the pet fish trade. But make enough stink to the right people, and the whole thing will be shut down. It would take far too mch resources paper work and man hours for the feds to regulate.

 

[naesco]

When did I say to put a halt to the hobby? The point I am trying to make is that you can't just point your finger at Indo and PI and say it is only up to them. Change is required by the industry as a whole, including the hobbyist. Why can't change be forced at this end or is it that you can't admit that we are part of the problem?

This hobby will never be "regulated" by the government. It will either be shut down completely or left alone completely. There are far more important things for the feds t be worried about that make far more money, than the pet fish trade. But make enough stink to the right people, and the whole thing will be shut down. It would take far too mch resources paper work and man hours for the feds to regulate.

Sorry, Rover but there is an additional option. There are three options; Regulation, Closure or Change.
This thread considers a manifesto which will allow for the changes long overdue by industry. Only if industry fails to adopt the changes will they face closure.
Which one would you choose?

 

[Anonymous]

Mike--

That highlights the problem though. The solution does lie in governmental regulation. Just not ours. This is the natural resources of the Philipino and Indonesian governments. Theirs to protect and regulate.

 

[mkirda]

Mike--

That highlights the problem though. The solution does lie in governmental regulation. Just not ours. This is the natural resources of the Philipino and Indonesian governments. Theirs to protect and regulate.

In the Philippines, cyanide collection is against the law, and punishable by five years in jail.

So, it is not the regulation that is at issue here. It is the fact that the regulations have no funds for enforcement.

Heck, we could make speeding punishable by death, but without police cars (let alone radar guns...), the law will never be applied because the speeders will never be apprehended. This is how things are in the Philippines. They don't have boats to patrol the waters. If they have the boats, they don't have the cash for the fuel...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Anonymous]

If they taxed the export of fish and corals wouldn't they have the funds then? If there is anything a government is good at it's taking money.

 

[naesco]

This Manifesto might include the following
1. Incorporation of a CDT by industry and a timeline for its implementation. Who will implement? Who will enforce?
2. An Unsuitable Species List (USL) and a timeline for its review and adoption by industry. Who will implement? Who will enforce?
3. Training; a plan, people, a timeline and a budget funded by industry.
Who will implement? Who will enforce?


[thinking out loud]
Representatives of reform (Who decides who this will be) will meet with representatives of industry (Who will this be and how will you get them together?) (importers/wholesalers, P/I exporters and possibly other interested parties (Eric Borneman comes to mind) and draft??, discuss?? adopt?? a Manifesto

Rover has added some questions to this preliminary Manifesto and the next steps that might ocurr.
I don't have all the answers but here is some food for thought.
The answers to questions 1-3 implementation and enforcement:
If the Manifesto was adopted by the representative present it would contain undertakings by industy to adopt the CDT with a time certain and pay for the random testing at their facilities by independent professional scientists.
I would expect that industry would immediately agree to say 10 of the 45 species of coral and fish on the proposed USL as a show of good faith and the rest would be subject to negotiations. Perhaps the opinions of outside experts like, Borneman, Michael and Fenner might be sought.
A training fund and budget would set up funded by industry with a reasonable timeline. We know there is a wealth of people willing and anxious to help.
The Participants.
1. People like myself who are prepared to blow the whistle on industry including experts in training, cyanide and the packaging/handling of fish and coral would represent reform.
2. Representatives from the appropriate Ministry in the Phillipines and Indonesia. The reps would have the political clout to go back to their respective govenments and tell them that their Marine Industy will be closed down unless certain steps are taken by them.
3. Representative from the US Government who are prepared to take whatever steps are necessary to close the industry down in the event that industry fails to act on the committments they will make.
4. All the major importers/wholesalers or their agreed representatives. They would have the authority to sign the committments to be made by industry. They would explain to their 'members' the consequences of failure to adopt and follow through with their committments. They would fund all reforms.
5. Members of the public including those who may be adverse to our hobby so that they can see reform happen or take appropriate steps if it fails.
6. Observers" MAC, MASNA, AMDA come to mind

Just my thoughts. If you are prepared to volunteer please let me know.
I am really interested in postive constructive comment.
Please continue to email if you require confidential communications.