Is it time to blow the whistle on industry?
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Looking back now , its really silly to think half the repondents to Franks phone survey would have openly stated that seventy or eighty percent of their fish die prior to being sold!
If the average was 60% then there would need to be almost a hundred of stores reporting 70 to eighty percent DOA DAA. :roll:
If the average was 60% then there would need to be almost a hundred of stores reporting 70 to eighty percent DOA DAA. :roll:
I agree with Kalk.....and reading over my previous post, I realize that I had not followed up with the questions it brought.
One major part of this puzzle is acclimation. I forgot to mention that most retailers and aquarists don't acclimate properly and is a major cause of doa's after a 3-5 day period. A common problem we have found in customers reporting doa's during this time frame mostly have not acclimated their fish properly. Over the last few years, we have included an acclimation sheet for each shipment. It's a strange pheonomena that fish will die suddenly after 3 days when eating and acting normally. Proper acclimation goes a long way without saying!
To answer some of the previously asked questions.....
Dizzy asked about what I thought the national average was and I really have no idea. I would speculate though that the doa's are much, much higher in shipments that are transhipped vs. purchased from a wholesaler. Please don't jump on me for saying that, but it's true. Fish go through a lot more stress when re-packed quickly and then sent on another 24-48 hour journey. If fish are properly acclimated, medicated, fed and screened before shipping again, doa's are much less. I do think that transhipping is a black cloud over the industry and undermines the best method of handling methods by wholesalers.....IF DONE CORRECTLY!
Jaime asked some questions too.....
Our PI doa's range from 0% - 30% on a bad day. I would say the average is about 5%. We get excellent quality fish every week from a multiple list of suppliers from the PI. I would estimate that we receive 200-300 boxes per week from this region and it makes up about 10% of our total incoming shipments that are fish related.
We have seen a great improvement over the last 10 years in PI fish. We do give much feedback to the suppliers that we purchase from, and we have weeded through the good and bad. New facilities are still popping up, but more modern facilities with better owners on that side looking to trade in high quality fish.
Best regards
Eric
One major part of this puzzle is acclimation. I forgot to mention that most retailers and aquarists don't acclimate properly and is a major cause of doa's after a 3-5 day period. A common problem we have found in customers reporting doa's during this time frame mostly have not acclimated their fish properly. Over the last few years, we have included an acclimation sheet for each shipment. It's a strange pheonomena that fish will die suddenly after 3 days when eating and acting normally. Proper acclimation goes a long way without saying!
To answer some of the previously asked questions.....
Dizzy asked about what I thought the national average was and I really have no idea. I would speculate though that the doa's are much, much higher in shipments that are transhipped vs. purchased from a wholesaler. Please don't jump on me for saying that, but it's true. Fish go through a lot more stress when re-packed quickly and then sent on another 24-48 hour journey. If fish are properly acclimated, medicated, fed and screened before shipping again, doa's are much less. I do think that transhipping is a black cloud over the industry and undermines the best method of handling methods by wholesalers.....IF DONE CORRECTLY!
Jaime asked some questions too.....
Our PI doa's range from 0% - 30% on a bad day. I would say the average is about 5%. We get excellent quality fish every week from a multiple list of suppliers from the PI. I would estimate that we receive 200-300 boxes per week from this region and it makes up about 10% of our total incoming shipments that are fish related.
We have seen a great improvement over the last 10 years in PI fish. We do give much feedback to the suppliers that we purchase from, and we have weeded through the good and bad. New facilities are still popping up, but more modern facilities with better owners on that side looking to trade in high quality fish.
Best regards
Eric
Steven,
Basically the acclimation sheet is as follows:
Check ph in incoming bags
Check salinity level in both incoming bags and aquarium.
Check Temp in both incoming bags and aquarium.
Open bags
Neutralize Ammonia with Amquel or other ammonia neutrilizer
Add aquarium water to bag until water volume in bag is doubled. This should take a minimum of 30 minutes.....so add water slowly or in small increments.
Remove fish from bag and let loose in the aquarium with lights off!
The bigger the difference in ph, temp, and salinity, the longer you should take to double the water volume in the incoming fish bag.
Villi,
Yes....fish are imported from outside the country, suddenly re-packed (sometimes), and then sent on another journey that could take anywhere from 8 hours to 48 hours depending on connection times and transfer flights. FAA requirements say that all fish need to be packed for sustaining a 48 hour flight time.
After hearing about contstant high mortalities in the industry and all these high numbers of losses, I think more and more that this is much more commonly happening on tran-shipped orders.....not wholesale orders like ours. Maybe that is the reason we never see the numbers that some mention as we don't tranship, and also never see averages of loss so high as those mentioned by guys like Frank Lallo and few others.
Best regards
Eric
Basically the acclimation sheet is as follows:
Check ph in incoming bags
Check salinity level in both incoming bags and aquarium.
Check Temp in both incoming bags and aquarium.
Open bags
Neutralize Ammonia with Amquel or other ammonia neutrilizer
Add aquarium water to bag until water volume in bag is doubled. This should take a minimum of 30 minutes.....so add water slowly or in small increments.
Remove fish from bag and let loose in the aquarium with lights off!
The bigger the difference in ph, temp, and salinity, the longer you should take to double the water volume in the incoming fish bag.
Villi,
Yes....fish are imported from outside the country, suddenly re-packed (sometimes), and then sent on another journey that could take anywhere from 8 hours to 48 hours depending on connection times and transfer flights. FAA requirements say that all fish need to be packed for sustaining a 48 hour flight time.
After hearing about contstant high mortalities in the industry and all these high numbers of losses, I think more and more that this is much more commonly happening on tran-shipped orders.....not wholesale orders like ours. Maybe that is the reason we never see the numbers that some mention as we don't tranship, and also never see averages of loss so high as those mentioned by guys like Frank Lallo and few others.
Best regards
Eric
clarionreef
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Most importers are easily in touch with the DOA rate landed in the USA and the subsequent DOA rate their customers receive on the same fish.
The 2-4 % landed DOA rate is normal now and the shipping out DOA rate to retailers is another 1-4% average after acclimation.
This normal routine experience never jived with the rumors of mass extictions and huge profits we have always heard about.
Huge profits are hard to achieve if everyone is dissatisfied with the dead and dying fish they alledgedly receive.
This is too obvious a design flaw to point out and is of course pure fiction. Pure fiction that some wanted to believe to demonize the trade beyond what it actually is guilty of.
Now...if transhipping has been substituted for the genuine process....then we have been effectively lied to as transhipping is totally different trade and a nefarious one at that that preys on naive retailers.
Of course, if they fall for it....they get what they deserve....but its a shame how many fish have to die for them to learn that.
The search for truth of the issues before us are harmed by the witch hunts and hysterical, inaccurate journalism that eventually gets citing by more sincere people as fact..Steve
The 2-4 % landed DOA rate is normal now and the shipping out DOA rate to retailers is another 1-4% average after acclimation.
This normal routine experience never jived with the rumors of mass extictions and huge profits we have always heard about.
Huge profits are hard to achieve if everyone is dissatisfied with the dead and dying fish they alledgedly receive.
This is too obvious a design flaw to point out and is of course pure fiction. Pure fiction that some wanted to believe to demonize the trade beyond what it actually is guilty of.
Now...if transhipping has been substituted for the genuine process....then we have been effectively lied to as transhipping is totally different trade and a nefarious one at that that preys on naive retailers.
Of course, if they fall for it....they get what they deserve....but its a shame how many fish have to die for them to learn that.
The search for truth of the issues before us are harmed by the witch hunts and hysterical, inaccurate journalism that eventually gets citing by more sincere people as fact..Steve
I someone wants real numbers on this, I would be more than happy to test it out on say 20-30 fish per from the top 5 groups traded; survival over 4-6 week period. We could do a real study, with real results, statistically backed, under controlled condtitions. All this BS, or "first hand" knowledge is worthless; someone needs to do a controlled study. It has to be done by a fish person who has enough experence bring in fish so that they don't kill them with poor tech, then blame the trade for their death. I would be scary to get results from a someone that has no real world experenice with fish.
As one person who has researched the mortality problem, I disagree with those posting here (including Steve) that the numbers that I have published are exaggerations. The cumulative mortality is high even on fish that go through the regular chain of custody, and higher if the fish are transhipped.
I will admit that there may be a bias in the data that I obtained from Frank Lallo. Frank promised to send me all the raw data, then reneged on his promise. However, I had and continue to obtain similar data that indicates that mortality of high, particularly on longer shipments of over 40 hours duration.
The mortalities are related to stress, ammonia, cyanide and starvation. Recently, we conducted experiments in the Philippines with fish transported in sealed plastic bags for periods of over 48 hours. We experienced mortalities of over 50% in the bags which did not contain additives. In those bags to which chemicals were added to the bags the mortalities were markedly reduced. Similar recuctions in mortality rates were found in shipments of marine aquarium fishes shipped to Switzerland to less than 8% (after 48 hours transport).
I mentioned our research at Marine Ornmentals 06. The research is still ongoing. It is too soon to apply statistics.
PS-Some of Eric's recommendations are flawed.
Peter Rubec, Ph.D.
I will admit that there may be a bias in the data that I obtained from Frank Lallo. Frank promised to send me all the raw data, then reneged on his promise. However, I had and continue to obtain similar data that indicates that mortality of high, particularly on longer shipments of over 40 hours duration.
The mortalities are related to stress, ammonia, cyanide and starvation. Recently, we conducted experiments in the Philippines with fish transported in sealed plastic bags for periods of over 48 hours. We experienced mortalities of over 50% in the bags which did not contain additives. In those bags to which chemicals were added to the bags the mortalities were markedly reduced. Similar recuctions in mortality rates were found in shipments of marine aquarium fishes shipped to Switzerland to less than 8% (after 48 hours transport).
I mentioned our research at Marine Ornmentals 06. The research is still ongoing. It is too soon to apply statistics.
PS-Some of Eric's recommendations are flawed.
Peter Rubec, Ph.D.
Peter, and at what temp where these PI tests conducted in?
I still have to shake me head at your post, just goes to show the disconnect between science and reality in some cases. 90% DOA/DAA would put EVERYONE out of business. Maybe the next area you should study should be business
Even at 50% this industry wouldn't be sustainable. Just where to you think money comes from in this business, grants? Sorry, but we have to earn our cash, unlike the NGO and science culture. No one gives us cash!
BTW, thanks for paying for Ruwi and Co. to go to MO 06, that was a great thing you did! Even if the panel discussion got put off by some super unrelated talk and knocked me out from the panel discussion. What a mass exodus that was when JB announced the bacteria lady :roll: I'd say clsoe to half the room got up at once and headed for the door :lol:
I still have to shake me head at your post, just goes to show the disconnect between science and reality in some cases. 90% DOA/DAA would put EVERYONE out of business. Maybe the next area you should study should be business
Even at 50% this industry wouldn't be sustainable. Just where to you think money comes from in this business, grants? Sorry, but we have to earn our cash, unlike the NGO and science culture. No one gives us cash!
BTW, thanks for paying for Ruwi and Co. to go to MO 06, that was a great thing you did! Even if the panel discussion got put off by some super unrelated talk and knocked me out from the panel discussion. What a mass exodus that was when JB announced the bacteria lady :roll: I'd say clsoe to half the room got up at once and headed for the door :lol:
Peter, under what scenario do Mo fish stay in the bags 48 hours?
Why even test for that?
Yes, sometimes transship events can last 48 hours. But very few ever do.
The vast majority of Transshipping events have a reox water exchange some where during the event. Sure the bag might be the same , but the waters new..........
Thats vastly different then an straight 48 hour stint in the same water.
The idea that you conduct a 48 hour test with PI fish tells us that your still outside the loop.
The fact that your re-inactment never (or very rarely ) takes place in the real world doesn't seem to slow you down .
Why even test for that?
Yes, sometimes transship events can last 48 hours. But very few ever do.
The vast majority of Transshipping events have a reox water exchange some where during the event. Sure the bag might be the same , but the waters new..........
Thats vastly different then an straight 48 hour stint in the same water.
The idea that you conduct a 48 hour test with PI fish tells us that your still outside the loop.
The fact that your re-inactment never (or very rarely ) takes place in the real world doesn't seem to slow you down .
If I recall , none of the Frank data posted here ever lived up to his assesment.
The 60 percent never seemed to be establshed even using his numbers.
There were a few fish species that approached or exceeded the average, but what he posted here was far shy of what he published as the final results.
The 60 percent never seemed to be establshed even using his numbers.
There were a few fish species that approached or exceeded the average, but what he posted here was far shy of what he published as the final results.
dizzy dont you know your supposed to purge and bleed a turkey prior to Chrismas dinnering it. (just like a mommy Leopard shark on the public fishing peir in SF.)dizzy":16nnu0nd said:
OH ! you mean inflated with stuffing and trimmings! Just like Franks data.
This thread is obviously heading South. If there are specific points anyone would like to discuss, please start a new thread. Just for the record, I ship regularly at 24-30 hours and if DOA's are higher than 5% I consider that a bad shipment.-Jim
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