What's the point of striving to be 100% net caught?

[mkirda]

Glenn,

Have you ever seen a reef hit using various destructive fishing methods?

Maybe if you had, you would change your tune somewhat.

Maybe if you witnessed the poverty firsthand...
Maybe if you understood how few options these people have...

I know it is difficult for any to put themselves, and I mean really, really put themselves into another person's postition. To think like they think, recognizing the limits and constraints put onto them by their different culture and different society. We here are free, truly free, in a way that most other countries cannot understand.

You are free to make a choice here as well.
You can choose to try to make a difference, or you can choose to turn a blind eye. Choose as your conscience dictates.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[clarionreef]

Mary, Mike, et al.
Rover has done a great public service for being forthright and giving voice to the vast majority of the trade that agrees with him.
He is far, far more representative of the industry then we 'fringe' people and is doing far more to educate the "NGO eco-moonies" then I ever did about the reality of the trade. What has been his underlying theme here???
Variety, variety, variety. This is the theme I have failed to drive home to MAC and the IMA for years. MAC continues in the tradition of not adressing the real need of marinelife dealers...the develpment of netcaught variety to do business with.
Thet have generally wanted to train in friendly places where there is a well worn and safe path for non profit groups to follow. Training and re-training the same areas with the same fish supply has resulted in body counts of 'hamburgers sold', I mean divers trained, but has produced nothing to impress real dealers in marinelife. As Rover has correctly pointed out, there are more netcaught fish around then are MAC certified. Yes, most netcaught fish are not MAC certified...most!
To me a MAC cerified fish is a common fish, often a fish usually caught with nets anyway. Never fish that count or fish thet impress the Rovers...leading Rover and 98% of the other dealers, AMDA dealers included to seek out the MAC and IMA ignored species. These are the species that make retailers and wholesalers pay rent and progress.
WITHHOLDING these species from training, wittingly or unwittingly has resulted in boring and lack luster achievements on the part of NGOs for decades. The only people impressed with the training of pearlscale butterflys, aurigas, mandarins, chelmons and percs are the newbie, eco moonies on salary or the professional grant processing topguns...on salary. Rover is not impressed with you guys and he represents the real world that you will not face.
Finding endless fault with me and Mary for pointing out the failures of the limited training programs run by non professionals has squandered time and won few converts. Rover has pointed out more than anything...the failure of training for proper species ie. the villages far from Manila.
Netcaught dealers are condemned to failure and struggle for being so-self limited that they depend on the good will and good intentions of the few fish peddlers that will accept the handicaps imposed.
NGOs fighting with reformers have missed the real debate.The real debate is with the silent majority, not your most passionate and constructive critics.
Surely MAC has more to say here than the typical knee jerk self defense. What about what Rover says John?
Real communication is breaking out here. I hope MAC will comment on the"Rover doctrine" of; You want my support.? " Produce some fish that count for a change!"
With that dialogue going, I can sit out and watch politely.
Sincerely, Steve

 

[MaryHM]

I know there is no industry support for propagation, that would stop you from being able to buy wild caught which I should somehow believe will save the reefs.

I don't agree with that. Industry supports ORA, and we are still allowed to buy wild caught clownfish. I think it's more accurate to say that the hobby in general doesn't support aquaculture. Of course there are the cream of the crop (no pun!) hobbyists who actively pursue aquaculture- both with their dollars and with their time. But they represent such a tiny minority of the hobbyists. Most want the biggest piece they can get for the least amount of money- and that means wild caught. But I am weaving off the topic again...

 

[Anonymous]

Really off topic:

Uh, ORA has to procure wild caught clowns for their broodstock. Shut down collection, no broodstock, bring on the inbreeding. Sure, corals can be fully done within our hobby, but for fish there will always be a need for wild caught.

 

[Anonymous]

Glad I could help Steve. :wink:

Have you ever seen a reef hit using various destructive fishing methods?

Maybe if you had, you would change your tune somewhat.

No I haven't. Do you have any pictures? (That was for Kalk, )

Maybe if you witnessed the poverty firsthand...
Maybe if you understood how few options these people have...

If their entire existence is completely dependent on selling us the fish we want, it shouldn't be any problem to reform as they would be clamoring to find out exactly what we want, how we want , and how soon can they deliver.

Nevermind my reply before, now he is saying ban the hobby. No reason to ban the hobby, ban collections.

My apologies for my sloppy language. I meant ban collections, as you stated.

I know there is no industry support for propagation, that would stop you from being able to buy wild caught which I should somehow believe will save the reefs.

I think most shops support aquaculture. It's the lack of localized and efficient distribution that's hindering the progress.

Do you think there is a cyanide problem within this industry? If so, do you think it is serious? If it is serious, then where do you think all of those cyanide fish are going?

Yes.
Yes.
The same place all the net caught ones are going. But you've already stated that many fish aren't caught with cyanide, so you've elimated much of the problem by avoiding those targets right? I happen to think that the best method I have of approaching the problem is not ignoring those people who are already doing the collecting, moving to a lower quality, less diverse avaliability and never giving any feed back back into the system, BUT RATHER, avoiding those species likely to be targeted, and giving holy heck to my sales person, his boss, the owner and the owner's wife when I have serious mortality issues. In other words honest to goodness feedback into the system as to what is required of them to keep my business. The worst customer I have in my store is the one who comes in looks around and leaves with out ever asking any questions or at least complaining. I'd take an irate complaining customer over one of those any day. Taking myself out of the loop isn't an option to me. You are suggesting that the major wholesalers don't depend on the reef for their livlihood and you do. I don't see how that's the case. If anything you rely on their existence for your livlihood (as do I). If they fall the entire hobby falls.

 

[Anonymous]

I don't agree with that. Industry supports ORA, and we are still allowed to buy wild caught clownfish. I think it's more accurate to say that the hobby in general doesn't support aquaculture. Of course there are the cream of the crop (no pun!) hobbyists who actively pursue aquaculture- both with their dollars and with their time. But they represent such a tiny minority of the hobbyists. Most want the biggest piece they can get for the least amount of money- and that means wild caught. But I am weaving off the topic again...

You missed the disconnect Mary. Industry supports ORA but not propagation... why? Because I can almost always call ORA and get clowns, basslets, conchs etc from them usually at my door within 48-72 hours of placing my order. Coral propagation however doesn't have that kind of operation - one year almost 95% of my soft corals were locally grown - I only did wild orders for LPS (however that was a few years ago when we were a fairly small operation and one of Greg Hiller's only customers. - I rarely order any wild SPS unless I see a particularly nice colony on your site. Here in Boston we have a pretty extensive net of hobbiests that are quite successful farmers and sell to us and other stores regularly - when we first opened however we were one of the ONLY stores in the Boston area willing to buy prop'd corals, Greg said most others were rather reluctant to purchase anything from a hobbiest. Market demand has driven it - however again we are dependant on a local network of farmers and the demand is exceeding supply so we have to supplement with wild colonies.

Logistics and volume currently are the reasons why the hobby hasn't "embraced" aquaculture on a bigger scale. If you don't have a source you can't do much about it. Now for instance I chatted with Walt Smith for some time a few months ago and he was complaining that his aquacultured rock wasn't selling all that well. I've not seen it yet in person but I have seen the photos and I've had people in my shop raving about it. The biggest reason why we ignored it for so long was due to concerns voiced here on this board that the base material was just dead base rock from the reef and thus no more reef-friendly than the real stuff. However I had a biologist from the Bishop Museum in my shop who quashed that - he had physically been there and seen where the rock was mined on land. Because of that I can't wait to try that rock when we bring our fish room online.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Mary,

All the trained collectors are not selling only to Marivi. Other exporters are faster than Marivi and send middleman/woman to the communities to buy the fish directly from the collectors. It is a matter of human resources, exporters have dozens of individuals doing this as their livelihood.

Middleman/woman are very bad . Fish are exposed to negative conditions for extended periods of time.

The same is happening to community level, fish are exposed to negative conditions which are responsible for physiological damage which is evident only letter at the importer, retailer or hobbyist level.

Net caught fish are badly handled and held at community level, this issue could be as important as the collection method.

Jaime

 

[dizzy]

Tom,
Walt brought some of that rock to MACNA XIV, it was actually man-made and porus, like concrete mixed with air or something. It looked pretty good and the price was the same as the regular Fiji liverock. He showed video of the workers taking it out to sea in boats. Didn't ya go to MACNA?

 

[Anonymous]

Tom,
Walt brought some of that rock to MACNA XIV, it was actually man-made and porus, like concrete mixed with air or something. It looked pretty good and the price was the same as the regular Fiji liverock. He showed video of the workers taking it out to sea in boats. Didn't ya go to MACNA?

No not last year - I *may* get there this year - depends on whether the 101st Airborne is back from Iraq yet or not so I can make it a dual purpose vacation to KY, otherwise I may stay here in NH and see ZZTOP :wink: since MACNA is coming to Boston next year.

I haven't heard anything negative about Walt's cultured rock yet however so I'm anxious to try it.

 

[JeremyR]

Yeah, the part in the video where they spent 5 minutes showing how careful they were with the anchor not to damage the reefs, then threw 2 tons of rock overboard willy nilly was priceless.

 

[John_Brandt]

Nevermind my reply before, now he is saying ban the hobby. No reason to ban the hobby, ban collections. We, as Americans/Canadians have brought in enough coral to this country. Thankfully much of that is now in the hands of people that actually support propagation. We'll be here, growing coral long after this discussion dies.

I was warming my engines to really start trying to contribute, but I think I'll save what little hair I have left and keep doing things the right way.

I know there is no industry support for propagation, that would stop you from being able to buy wild caught which I should somehow believe will save the reefs.

Too many undeserved egos here for me. Everything is misquoted, taken out of context...very embarrassing when I tell people to get in here and read..and they write about what a bunch of children everyone is.

Best wishes to all.

Logicalreef,

Welcome to the Industry Forum. I hope that you will continue to contribute to our discussions.

Knowing that one's postings are cast out into the World Wide Web will make egotists out of mice. Forgive us for our excesses. Passions run deep here. The legions of lurkers here prove that voyeurism is a worthy pastime. But we would prefer that you contribute without intimidation.

 

[John_Brandt]

Really off topic:

Uh, ORA has to procure wild caught clowns for their broodstock. Shut down collection, no broodstock, bring on the inbreeding. Sure, corals can be fully done within our hobby, but for fish there will always be a need for wild caught.

Gresham,

I can't entirely agree with you.

If all collection of wild clownfish were halted tomorrow it wouldn't matter much. There is an enormous inventory of clownfish in captivity right now. I don't think that inbreeding would be a problem for several reasons.

True inbreeding brings a combination of desirable and indesirable traits. Inbreeding is often associated with strange abnormalities, most of which would be eliminated in the wild by natural selection. But inbreeding can also bring about exotic benefits like immunities to certain diseases, while at the same time subjecting the offspring to genetic mutations that endanger their lives in ways that non-inbred individuals do not experience.

Captive life means the elimination of predators. Predators represent a primary driving force in natural selection. Captive-bred clownfish do not need any of the instincts that keep them from being swallowed by a grouper on a real coral reef.

But really, inbreeding of the presently existing captive, world-wide inventory of clownfish is easily overcome. Breeders would simply need to swap or sell clownfish between themselves to prevent inbreeding. You don't think farmers still get chickens and cattle from the wild to supplement their stock, do you?

 

[clarionreef]

Welcome Logical reef!
Don't be put off by the excercise of freedom of expression practiced here.
If you've ever seen a presidential debate or Hannity and Combs on TV ? How bout a governors race in California? My goodness but they get downright nasty!
Its easy to be passion free when you don't care about the topic, but when it gets close to home...it can understandingly get testy. So what? Proof of free speech is good to see...and you do see it here!
Sincerely, Steve

 

[Anonymous]

I'm sure, collectively, the states do have enough genetics to halt inbreeding. It wouldn't be like swapping frags though, hobbyists would have to learn the complexities of shipping, and the horrors. AS for the chickens, thats another topic, yup science is great, huh John. Turkies and chickens, as we now know them (the white domestic ones) have a very very small gene pool, USDA vets have some very frighting (if you depend on the poultry industry) news concerning that.

ORA and the other large aquaculture companies procure broodstock on a continual basis, why would they be doing that, if it can all be done in house?

while at the same time subjecting the offspring to genetic mutations that endanger their lives in ways that non-inbred individuals do not experience.

Which is more a norm, then the beginning of that sentence. The "super fish" (immunities to certain diseases) is food for thought though. Maybe ORA or C-Quest have had some success with that, heard anything?

 

[clarionreef]

Well Mary,
Your thread experienced a 36 hour 'passion spike' from the mob and ran out of gas suddenly.
Did you reach and conclusions? Did you get any answer to your question?
Steve

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Rover,

In aprevious message you stated, I quote "I have noticed a huge difference in quality I am getting over the last few years". Since we are talking about the Philippines I am glad to see that someone respected by Steve Robinson is publicly recognizing that fish coming from the Philippines are showing a huge difference in quality.

Your statement is powerfull and has an important message for the readers. Things in the Phillipines have improved in the last years. This improvement is due to the different net training programs implemented by different NGOs in the Philippines. Water quality at community level and holding facilities in Manila was a subject of a workshop with members of the PTFEA back in 1997. Handling and holding at community level were components of our programs during 1997 and 1998. Things have moved forward, less collectors are using cyanide more people are aware of the problem and are taking action to tackle it..

The issue of variety has been addressed by NGOs working in the Philippines. Variety is what fish buyers overseas are looking for That was a great concern for PMP as is for Marivi and other small exporters who do not have the human resources to send middleman/woman to communities far away to buy that variety.

Peter Rubec can explain more about how IMA was addressing the variety issue.

Thanks for the accurate information provided to the readers.

Mary,

I think that you have ignored many good achievements made by some good and honest people in the Philippines as a result of work done by NGOs. It was not perfect, but good things as the huge difference in quality
reported by Rover is a consequence of that work.

Only if we used all the energy that is being wasted here to produce something positive we could go further and in the right way. The problem I see is that there is a couple of resent ful individuals who want to undermine the efforts of other individuals trying to find solutions to the problem.

Sincerely

Jaime

 

[JeremyR]

THere is still plenty of the same old crap coming from the phillipines as well. I will say that the fish I have recieved from steve & mary the last couple of orders have been superb (0 DOA on the last one). However, there is at least one other net caught only place in california (they don't do alot of fish yet tho). Also, I think it should be pointed out that we all support the cyanide cartel indirectly.. even mary. When we buy indo corals, we are paying people who knowingly collect with cyanide, albeit for non-cyanide product. I do not buy the bali special of the week, but I do buy jakarta corals.. it's an ethical dilemma for all of us who wish to be "purists". I wish the world was black & white, but it's not. When you go to your grocery store and buy various food, you support big tobacco. It's hard to live a life totally free of negative impact or lining the pockets of people you find distasteful.. however, we all know cyanide is being used, and that it needs to stop.. anyone who thinks it's gone away is kidding themselves. Also need to focus on husbandry from the collector to the LFS as any weak link in that chain ruins the fish no matter how it was caught.

 

[clarionreef]

People,
Any direct weekly importer of Philippine fish generally keeps quiet on this subject. Obvious, to us there is a great deal of work to be done in improving the quality of livestock that is largely determined in the field...and then again in Manila.
All importers get in some bad fish to varying degrees. The fact that preferred customers get good fish is not surprising. Screening, selecting and packing well determine to a large degree the quality you get... From this, you may imagine how good Philippine fish are.
We who put away thousands of fish a week find generalizations from 'experts' far away to be amusing at best.
Steve Robinson, Cortez Marine

 

[JennM]

The fact that preferred customers get good fish is not surprising.

Yep, it sucks to be a new kid on the block, when it comes to many of the big wholesalers. Unless you're moving a zillion fish a week, you get the dregs. I might not be the biggest buyer, YET, might not ever be, but if I don't get good stuff, they don't get more of my money. Perhaps that is why Glenn and I have different experiences.

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

I might not be the biggest buyer, YET, might not ever be, but if I don't get good stuff, they don't get more of my money. Perhaps that is why Glenn and I have different experiences.

I doubt it. I'm just a little guy. I could probably count my salt water sales for the week on two hands. The trick is in not letting them know that. It's no business of any wholesaler how much I sell a week. All they need be concerned with is how much I'm buying from them, and what they need to do to make that number higher.