Moved posts from the Guidelines Thread
- Thread starter jamesw
- Start date
Do you think think that any one actually believes that they are reforming anything right now? They don't even have any fish. They simply aren't going to convince very many stores (read stubborn-independent-highly-skeptical-of-anything-new retailers) to fork over the bucks (to a third party certifier, not MAC) to become certified unless they are actually providing a higher quality product and there is a monetary incentive to do so. And providing a higher quality product (even if it doesn't solve every problem in the industry) can only be good for the industry and hobby as a whole. Likewise, wholesalers aren't going to be able to keep and retain customers unless they are also providing a higher quality product, regardless of any stickers or certifications.
I understand. But the impression of give us the answers we want or go home and try again has been just beneath the surface most of the time as well. Like I said, "We don't know yet, has never been implied as an acceptable answer without them having to admit defeat.
That is entirely dependent on how large a problem the org is dealing with. NASA has been around for quite some time but you could hardly say that they know it all, or are nearing completion of their quest. Not that I'm comparing MAC to the NASA engineers, but you get my point.
Yes, people do believe they are reforming things RIGHT NOW. The only reason you don't is because you frequent this board. The only reason you know that don't have any fish is because you frequent this board. The vast, vast, vast majority of this industry and its hobbyists don't even know this board exists. They will take what MAC says at face value. I experience this constantly. People tend to believe what they read. MAC puts it out there that they have created major reform- that they have management plans in place on the reefs and that their fish are "strictly net caught". Unless someone hears differently, what would make them believe it isn't so????
I don't necessarily agree that the majority of the retailers will "just take what MAC says at face value". This entire industry is always skeptical of anything new, and especially anything that sounds too good to be true.
The fact that they don't have any fish. Their pr is there to get people interested, but sooner or later they are actually going to have to produce something. And when they do, if it's not any different than what was already avaliable, it will be readily apparent. The fact that they are able to generate interest among retailers in the reform movement at all is a positive step in the right direction at the very least. You guys can't decide whether or not they are criminal masterminds capable of scamming an entire industry for a really long time, or they are incompetent boobs. You can't have both. Not to mention the fact that surely their sponsors/funders will be checking up on their progress as well. I seriously doubt that that kind of money gets thrown around without any follow through and oversight.
Actually, I think they're a little of both. You have to understand that many businesses (especially exporters and importers) are looking for someone to validate them. They aren't interested in changing their ways mind you, just looking for someone to give them the "aura" of reform. So basically a bunch of incompetent boobs can come in and give a company the impetus to scam the entire industry.
Are you serious???? That kind of money and millions more is wasted on garbage programs every year. C'mon, Glenn- you're wiser than that.
They are currently pandering to hobbyists - via FAMA etc., movie premiers and using Nemo's voice as a spokesbody... they aren't trying to pander to the industry.
If enough people "demand" MAC certified stuff, retailers will be cajoled into buying into it.
At least that seems to be the plan.
Jenn
If enough people "demand" MAC certified stuff, retailers will be cajoled into buying into it.
At least that seems to be the plan.
Jenn
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Jenn,
I have heard that weak stuff from the beginning.
Presumably...if enough people "demand" certified stuff then retailers will be cajoled into buying it....or so it went.
But earlier this year, at IMAC it was explained that the lack of effort to certify more retailers was because there was not enough certified fish supply to satisfy them.
The demand creates the supply or the supply enables the demand? MAC switches sides in this little quandry rather often and basically produce niether supply nor many certified dealers.
To be sure they're not too busy in Indonesia...zero certified dealers and two dismal and failed pilot training programs.
To be sure they're not too busy in the Philippines. They have this amazing guy named Lino who delivers them surveys, CAMPS, "trainings" and the director of the Bureau of Fisheries, all for a single salary. He does the work and allows them to stay stateside mostly.
To be sure their not too busy communicating with the reform wing of the industry...they have in fact alienated it and refuse [wisely] to engage for lack of ability to debate without revealing a profound lack of knowledge about the issues.. They have gone thru a number of free service guy consultants now and are fresh out of 'expertise'.
Attempting to manipulate consumer behavior without familiarity with the target audience has been doomed from the start. The inability to read this audience has been admitted, yet no change in strategy implemented.
Assuming that even if they did effect a rising demand for ethically caught fish...the fish would then suddenly avail themselves proves how little they understand the problem of foreign field production. The assuming of this instead of training for this reveals a lack of intelligent strategy and focus.
Its almost as if they are under the orders of others and must marshall on regardless of effectiveness and public reception.
To regard Scott Michael next door in a conference with 300 listeners while only 7-8 show up for the MAC meeting is pathetic and something that will not be reported back on.
To host the "public education" debacle in NY Aquarium and be outdrawn by the local club and raffle equally sad. They do not know the field in which they play...and fail in it regularly. If not for the successes concocted in the website and quarterly reports...well, writing about your success is easier then earning them.
Public relations and politics typifies the days events with this crowd and it plays out only in America.
Frankly they have left the field wide open. ..however and a few thousand cyanide fisherman to convert who have never heard of MAC. PERHAPS YOU HAVE BEEN LED TO BELIEVE THAT THERE IS REALLY SOMETHING HAPPENING OUT THERE ...
Sounds good...until you have been there yourself and see for yourself what is really happening or not happening.
Too busy to respond?? Too busy?
Let me tell you where the time really goes. Accounting for the money recieved and pitching for more to be received. Self perpetuation without serving the interests of the trade that anchors their existance is the bone of contention here. They did not invent this routine...living on grants is a tough job...and the only way MAC will sustain itself because the trade never will.
And why should the trade sustain them? What have they really done to effect changes in the ocean everyone says they care about?
This issue is all about human eco/NGO politics now and the fisherman, the reefs have become secondary issues.
Another year of failure in the conversion of the industry to a sustainable collecting methodology...another year and another million coral heads killed.
If the reef trade cares about the real reefs...it needs to look beyond MAC. Ultimately we are the trade and the responsible parties...not them. Its our problem to solve and I fear we've wasted too many years on saviours that cannot deliver.
Steve
I have heard that weak stuff from the beginning.
Presumably...if enough people "demand" certified stuff then retailers will be cajoled into buying it....or so it went.
But earlier this year, at IMAC it was explained that the lack of effort to certify more retailers was because there was not enough certified fish supply to satisfy them.
The demand creates the supply or the supply enables the demand? MAC switches sides in this little quandry rather often and basically produce niether supply nor many certified dealers.
To be sure they're not too busy in Indonesia...zero certified dealers and two dismal and failed pilot training programs.
To be sure they're not too busy in the Philippines. They have this amazing guy named Lino who delivers them surveys, CAMPS, "trainings" and the director of the Bureau of Fisheries, all for a single salary. He does the work and allows them to stay stateside mostly.
To be sure their not too busy communicating with the reform wing of the industry...they have in fact alienated it and refuse [wisely] to engage for lack of ability to debate without revealing a profound lack of knowledge about the issues.. They have gone thru a number of free service guy consultants now and are fresh out of 'expertise'.
Attempting to manipulate consumer behavior without familiarity with the target audience has been doomed from the start. The inability to read this audience has been admitted, yet no change in strategy implemented.
Assuming that even if they did effect a rising demand for ethically caught fish...the fish would then suddenly avail themselves proves how little they understand the problem of foreign field production. The assuming of this instead of training for this reveals a lack of intelligent strategy and focus.
Its almost as if they are under the orders of others and must marshall on regardless of effectiveness and public reception.
To regard Scott Michael next door in a conference with 300 listeners while only 7-8 show up for the MAC meeting is pathetic and something that will not be reported back on.
To host the "public education" debacle in NY Aquarium and be outdrawn by the local club and raffle equally sad. They do not know the field in which they play...and fail in it regularly. If not for the successes concocted in the website and quarterly reports...well, writing about your success is easier then earning them.
Public relations and politics typifies the days events with this crowd and it plays out only in America.
Frankly they have left the field wide open. ..however and a few thousand cyanide fisherman to convert who have never heard of MAC. PERHAPS YOU HAVE BEEN LED TO BELIEVE THAT THERE IS REALLY SOMETHING HAPPENING OUT THERE ...
Sounds good...until you have been there yourself and see for yourself what is really happening or not happening.
Too busy to respond?? Too busy?
Let me tell you where the time really goes. Accounting for the money recieved and pitching for more to be received. Self perpetuation without serving the interests of the trade that anchors their existance is the bone of contention here. They did not invent this routine...living on grants is a tough job...and the only way MAC will sustain itself because the trade never will.
And why should the trade sustain them? What have they really done to effect changes in the ocean everyone says they care about?
This issue is all about human eco/NGO politics now and the fisherman, the reefs have become secondary issues.
Another year of failure in the conversion of the industry to a sustainable collecting methodology...another year and another million coral heads killed.
If the reef trade cares about the real reefs...it needs to look beyond MAC. Ultimately we are the trade and the responsible parties...not them. Its our problem to solve and I fear we've wasted too many years on saviours that cannot deliver.
Steve
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