So you want to sell us some fish, eh: looky here and learn

[naesco]

http://agsurveys.org/hobby/MO%202004_files/frame.htm

This is the powerpoint presentation prepared by Dr. Walker. She did a study of the hobbyist viewpoint which was presented to MO2004.

For those industry types who think powerpoint is a CNN TV show, or are too lazy to read it, here is what hobbyists want:

Hobbyists want net caught and aquacultured fish because they overwhelmingly believe that it is better for the reefs and also feel that the fish are healthier.

Any some of you thought we are only looking at price. This confirms my belief that when cheap cyanide fish are no longer available (did I say banned), hobbyists wil embrace what we reeformists stand for.

God Bless Them.

 

[Anonymous]

Wayne, that study was conducted by asking 2 aquarium societys and 2 forums to respond. A VERY biased study. If you read that study to be true, over 90% of aquarists would be male and 34% would live in the northeast (USA, for those Canadians who think I'm talking about them). The study was basicly replied to by knowledgable hobbyists who generelly want to do some good, not the "cut flower" type who buy goniapora all day long at Petco. If this study was actually going to tell you something, they would have sent mailers to LFS found doing a yellow pages search in conjunction with the society and forum types.

 

[MaryHM]

Any some of you thought we are only looking at price. This confirms my belief that when cheap cyanide fish are no longer available (did I say banned), hobbyists wil embrace what we reeformists stand for.

I did my corporate taxes this week for MSI/SeaCrop. It's always fun to run the numbers at the end of the year just to see what's what. Here's an interesting statistic for you. I started SeaCrop last January, so it went for one full year. Want to know how many net caught fish I sold to all of these concerned hobbyists? 23. [BOLD]TWENTY THREE WHOLE FREAKING FISH[/BOLD]. Less than 1% of my sales. My prices aren't an issue because they're in line with most- and cheaper than quite a few. It's easy to say in some survey that you want to save the reefs- but when it actually comes down to dealing with the limited, boring variety most go elsewhere. It's a fact, Wayne. And like Gresham said, this was a ridiculous study. You don't survey the top 10% of hobbyists who are actually out looking for information and then correlate that those hobbyist's answers speak for the other 90% of uneducated, uncaring hobbyists. BAD SCIENCE. But should we expect anything less from the pro-MAC "camp"? (pun for those in the know )

 

[MaryHM]

This survey is even more laughable than I originally thought. 59% of respondents belong to an aquarium society?? Does anyone (especially you, Wayne) think this is representative of the hobby?

 

[naesco]

Wayne, that study was conducted by asking 2 aquarium societys and 2 forums to respond. A VERY biased study. If you read that study to be true, over 90% of aquarists would be male and 34% would live in the northeast (USA, for those Canadians who think I'm talking about them). The study was basicly replied to by knowledgable hobbyists who generelly want to do some good, not the "cut flower" type who buy goniapora all day long at Petco. If this study was actually going to tell you something, they would have sent mailers to LFS found doing a yellow pages search in conjunction with the society and forum types.

GreshamH, the survey was also posted on canreef.com which is the Canadian board. As a result, the non-US component are probably Canadians.
But look what the study tells industry:
1. Hobbyists have money and are constantly increasing the size of their tanks.
2. Hobbyist are informed about the animals they choose to buy.
3. Hobbyist want net caught for the right reasons.

As long as there are loser LFS there will be the loser hobbyists you describe.
As long as impossible to keep species (the USL) like gonis are allowed to be imported, these losers will sell and buy them.

I got to tell you, I was pleasantly surprised by the number of hobbyists who responded in such a short time, their backgrounds and their opinions.
Fertile ground for reeform, eh!
Wayne

 

[naesco]

Mary said
"It's easy to say in some survey that you want to save the reefs- but when it actually comes down to dealing with the limited, boring variety most go elsewhere"

What worries me is that is what the future of the hobby will bring.
Unless something is done we will be left trading brown frags with eachother and watching our damsels scoot amongst plaster of paris rock.

Can you imagine that

 

[Anonymous]

Over 50% of the respondents make over $50,000 a year. Hardly the type to be concerned about price in the first place.

91% have a "reef tank" hardly representative of the overall marine hobby.

I didn't understand the "reasons" part. Who could possibly say no to any of them?

 

[MaryHM]

But Wayne, you didn't address the fact that I, as the only net caught only etailer last year, had basically ZILCH in fish sales from all of these hobbyists that you claim are so concerned. If they're so concerned, why weren't they flocking to SeaCrop to get their hands on a net caught fish?

 

[hdtran]

Naesco,

I would personally draw a slightly different conclusion. The way the survey was conducted did not get a random sampling of the marine hobbyist population; it obtained a self-selected group.

Therefore, I conclude that a large proportion of 546 hobbyists are knowledgeable, reasonably affluent, concerned about the fish and coral reefs, and have increased their tank size over the past two years.

If the authors are writing a paper to be published with the conference proceedings, I'd be very intrigued to see how they deal with the self-selection sample issue.

To MaryHM: If your wholesale division dealt with a LFS near where I live, I would go out of my way to purchase from that LFS. For personal reasons, I would greatly prefer not to purchase livestock over the internet from your hobbyist outlet. So, I'm afraid that I'm not one of your 23 customers...

 

[naesco]

But Wayne, you didn't address the fact that I, as the only net caught only etailer last year, had basically ZILCH in fish sales from all of these hobbyists that you claim are so concerned. If they're so concerned, why weren't they flocking to SeaCrop to get their hands on a net caught fish?

Mary I did my best to send them over but industry turfed me out of RC

 

[MaryHM]

That still doesn't answer the question, Wayne. Why weren't hobbyists clamoring for the net caught fish? It's not like you were the only way I was advertising. For the full year I have had banner ads with RC and Nano-Reefs. Part time I had ads with Reef Aquarium Guide, FAMA, and RDO. The word was out there- it's just that nobody cared. I used to only think it was the retail segment that didn't care that I carried net caught. Now I know the hobbyists don't care either. And I put a lot more clout in my numbers than this skewed survey's numbers anyday.

 

[naesco]

That still doesn't answer the question, Wayne. Why weren't hobbyists clamoring for the net caught fish? It's not like you were the only way I was advertising. For the full year I have had banner ads with RC and Nano-Reefs. Part time I had ads with Reef Aquarium Guide, FAMA, and RDO. The word was out there- it's just that nobody cared. I used to only think it was the retail segment that didn't care that I carried net caught. Now I know the hobbyists don't care either. And I put a lot more clout in my numbers than this skewed survey's numbers anyday.

I think one of the major reasons is that many online stores wrongfully advertise their fish as net caught or cyanide free without anyone challenging them.

With the greatest respect to your previous efforts and the current campaign by Steve, I do not think that the answer is to throw a few nets at the problem.

IMO you have to begin at the beginning.
Than, all fish entering stateside will be net caught and subject to a CDT and you have a level playing field amongst the vendors.

 

[MaryHM]

I think one of the major reasons is that many online stores wrongfully advertise their fish as net caught or cyanide free without anyone challenging them.

I don't consider that as a reason. Some may say it tucked down in the policy pages somewhere, but none yell it from the rooftops like I did. I was the ONLY etailer actively advertising my fish as netcaught.

With the greatest respect to your previous efforts and the current campaign by Steve, I do not think that the answer is to throw a few nets at the problem.

Do you and Jaime get together just to think up umpteen different ways of stating this widely known fact or is it just something in the Canadian water supply? NO ONE. LET ME REPEAT NO ONE EVER SAID THAT THROWING SOME NETS AT THE PROBLEM WAS THE TOTAL CURE. I AM SO SICK OF HEARING THAT THROWN INTO DISCUSSIONS THAT I COULD SCREAM.

 

[naesco]

Nobody is saying it is a cure.

What I am saying is that it is too little too late.
If industry does not buy into reform (we both know they have not) than the solution is to mandate reform.
What I am hearing is that every day in every way the reform manifesto is gaining support in the Philippines. This is an unexpected but very welcome development.
As Philipinos see that industry does not give a damn about their reefs, the movement will get stronger quicker.

What I can't fathom is that industry is in denial including many industry members in this forum.

Do you and Jaime get together just to think up umpteen different ways of stating this widely known fact or is it just something in the Canadian water supply?
No, it is just a Canadian thing.

 

[Anonymous]

http://agsurveys.org/hobby/MO%202004_files/frame.htm

This is the powerpoint presentation prepared by Dr. Walker. She did a study of the hobbyist viewpoint which was presented to MO2004.

For those industry types who think powerpoint is a CNN TV show, or are too lazy to read it, here is what hobbyists want:

Hobbyists want net caught and aquacultured fish because they overwhelmingly believe that it is better for the reefs and also feel that the fish are healthier.

Any some of you thought we are only looking at price. This confirms my belief that when cheap cyanide fish are no longer available (did I say banned), hobbyists wil embrace what we reeformists stand for.

God Bless Them.

<voice of mr. rogers>


can you say 'elective survey' ?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

GreshamH, the survey was also posted on canreef.com which is the Canadian board. As a result, the non-US component are probably Canadians.

Unfortunatly for you, I did read the power point Wayne. Your canreef forum was in fact not listed on the Call For Respondents page. They may have responded, but they didn't get mentioned.

 

[Anonymous]

It was a lousy poll. Poorly worded. Poorly implemented. Poorly designed. I honestly don't think it was worth the time I took to take it.

-Lee

 

[clarionreef]

Right Lee,
It was not actually an independant poll but a planned P.R. 'push poll' leading the victim towards a pre-established, calculated conclusion.
It also gave some the opportunity to say they would 'do the right thing' as if that had any bearing on behavior in doing the right thing.
No exporter, importer, retailer or hobbyist voices a preference for cyanide caught fish, They buy tens and thousands a week...but never admit or accept that they do.
I think Marys poll was more accurate. 22 netcaught fish sold last year despite the banners and advertising.
Still...the 'preference indicated ' for MAC fish will be spun into gold and reported as a positive...has every single failure.
Steve

 

[horge]

What I am hearing is that every day in every way the reform manifesto is gaining support in the Philippines. This is an unexpected but very welcome development.
As Philipinos see that industry does not give a damn about their reefs, the movement will get stronger quicker.

Utter rubbish. Cite a source and stop trotting out hearsay.
Most Filipinos are too busy ekeing out a living.

If most North Americans making LESS than the 50k annual bracket that half the poll sample makes can't be bothered to pay extra for non-cyanided fish...

How the hell can you expect Filipinos making less than US$600 a year to run the extra risk to provide the same cyanide-free goods?

The fact that many collectors nevertheless persevere with responsible collection methods is testament to a long-present environmental conscience, not something just begining to grow, like you would imply. It is also testament to the visceral efforts of real reformists who do real field work, training and setting up business relationships betwen collectors and wholesalers. Walk the walk, THEN you can talk.

Filipino "environmental organizations" spend up to 70% of donated income on bureaucratic dead weight. The remainder gets chewed up by entertaining various weekend-visiting foreign peers/observers, paying off local officials, and the twice-yearly publicity stunt... to show just how much work they're doing. Even if common Filipinos were somehow energized (yet agaion) to push/pay for 'reform' in this niche industry --the aforementioned NGO/environmental behemoths would dissipate the citizens' monetary and manpower contributions.

I'd warrant most Filipinos have long KNOWN what ought to be done to save the environment, but survival comes first. If it sells, it sells.

The US government spends and regulates just HOW MUCH, trying to protect Florida reefs? Would those Florida reefs compare favorably with Philippine reefs, peso-vs-dollar spent towards conservation ---to the layman observer? If not, then the reform argument is lost on the average Filipino who might somehow be aware that the continental US even HAS coral reefs to protect.

'Reeform' my butt.
Pffffh.

 

[clarionreef]

8O ...
and :!:
Hes right of course.
sincerely, Steve