So you want to sell us some fish, eh: looky here and learn
- Thread starter naesco
- Start date
horge":1l3b9wf6 said:
So what are you saying?
Are you saying the Philipinos don't give a damn about their reefs?
Is it true that marine fish are no longer allowed to be exported from Palawan?
Is it true that Greenpeace is considering a major anti-cyanide (both food and ornamental) push backed by some local Philipinne environmental organizations.
Is it true that the industry responsible for the cyanide destruction is on the run and lobbying hard to avoid a ban?
Please let us know the answers.
Thank you
Wayne
Read my prior post more carefully, this part in particular:
"I'd warrant most Filipinos have long KNOWN what ought to be done to save the environment, but survival comes first. If it sells, it sells."
I give a damn about the reefs, but if my family's survival depended on damaging it, then so be it. You know what? You North Americans levelled entire forests for the same reason or even merely for greater profit. The coral reefs are OUR forest, and they're in a sight better shape than those long-gone, dug-up and paved forests of yours. If you want me to explain it in English to you....
Wait. I already did.
No.
Greenpeace? Ask them yourself. They first made noises in '92.
As for local environmental organizations, read my prior post:
""Filipino "environmental organizations" spend up to 70% of donated income on bureaucratic dead weight. The remainder gets chewed up by entertaining various weekend-visiting foreign peers/observers, paying off local officials, and the twice-yearly publicity stunt... to show just how much work they're doing. Even if common Filipinos were somehow energized (yet agaion) to push/pay for 'reform' in this niche industry --the aforementioned NGO/environmental behemoths would dissipate the citizens' monetary and manpower contributions."
Which industry? The gold and copper mining/refinery suppliers?
Do you actually understand how the cyanide chain works, Wayne,
or do you deal merely in generalizations and handwaving?
While we're at it, what ban are you talking about? US? Canadian? RP? A trade federation ban? Honestly, I don't see anyone gearing up to ban anything effectively, nor do I see anyone in the MOF collection trade scampering for cover.
From the way you've been posting grand pronouncements left and right,
one might've thought you had all the answers already.
:twisted:
----
Merong mga ibaaaa, pa-REEFORM REEFORM paaaa
Pero kung paki-kinggan, walang binatbat naman...
Huwag na laaaaang...
Didn't I say something about feeding their children in another thread?
Wayne, you really need to get a grip :wink:
Horge, your english is better than most Americans, and you explained it well enough for this born blonde, ADHD afflicted person to get it. Thank you.
Wayne, you really need to get a grip :wink:
Horge, your english is better than most Americans, and you explained it well enough for this born blonde, ADHD afflicted person to get it. Thank you.
MaryHM":3qdzqqxk said:That still doesn't answer the question, Wayne. Why weren't hobbyists clamoring for the net caught fish? It's not like you were the only way I was advertising.
Mary, I can partically answer that question. Please don't take this as a negative response, it's not. I really love what your doing, I like your web site, not to mention your prices.
This is addressed to Mary but is for ALL etailers.
Being that I am one of those concerned hobbists (that lives in the boonys), I still use dial up. Slow loading websites are a turn off.
Broken links or blank pages are frustrating, and the simpler, more user friendly (read that as....stupid people can find their way around) web sites are a "good thing."
I also like pictures, which I know takes a full time person to do and is a PITA.
MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR for me is:
A paypal option for payment, I like to purchase livestock with cash.
Knowse,
Points well taken and not offense to me in the least. Constructive critcism is never a bad thing! (Unless you're MAC ) Let me address them:
I only got DSL 2 months ago. SeaCrop was created using a dial up connection in mind because that's all I had. Our pages weren't/aren't graphic intense nor do they contain any flash animation. Page loading time should not be an issue in my particular case.
It may happen occasionally, but I check frequently and correct problems quickly. The only time you would get a blank page is if you click on a category of livestock and we don't have any of it in stock at the time. Our navagation structure in my opinion is extremely easy to understand. If you think otherwise, please give me specific examples either here or in pm so I can address them.
We have a WYSIWYG section. We are quite "picture deficient" otherwise. However, when we're talking fish, a fish is a fish is a fish. Not like coral where each piece is fairly unique.
The two biggest etailers of fish- Fosters and MarineDepot- do not accept PayPal to my knowledge. I don't accept it because I don't know the total of the order until I'm ready to ship. I don't charge a flat rate for shipping because I don't want people under/over paying for freight. Freight is calculated as soon as the package is weighed- which is usually about 1 hour before my Fed Ex cutoff. I can't pack an order, calculate the total, and then hope I can contact the customer and I can get a PayPal verification within an hour. It's just not possible.
I do think the issues you brought up are valid ones. However, if hobbyists are so fired up about getting net caught fish I don't think things like not having a picture of a generic coral beauty or a paypal payment would get in their way. In fact, from what I understand most hobbyists prefer to use their credit card (via paypal or directly) so they have more buyer's protection in case of a problem. I still think the bottom line is that the average hobbyist just doesn't care. And it's a shame.
Points well taken and not offense to me in the least. Constructive critcism is never a bad thing! (Unless you're MAC
) Let me address them:I only got DSL 2 months ago. SeaCrop was created using a dial up connection in mind because that's all I had. Our pages weren't/aren't graphic intense nor do they contain any flash animation. Page loading time should not be an issue in my particular case.
It may happen occasionally, but I check frequently and correct problems quickly. The only time you would get a blank page is if you click on a category of livestock and we don't have any of it in stock at the time. Our navagation structure in my opinion is extremely easy to understand. If you think otherwise, please give me specific examples either here or in pm so I can address them.
We have a WYSIWYG section. We are quite "picture deficient" otherwise. However, when we're talking fish, a fish is a fish is a fish. Not like coral where each piece is fairly unique.
The two biggest etailers of fish- Fosters and MarineDepot- do not accept PayPal to my knowledge. I don't accept it because I don't know the total of the order until I'm ready to ship. I don't charge a flat rate for shipping because I don't want people under/over paying for freight. Freight is calculated as soon as the package is weighed- which is usually about 1 hour before my Fed Ex cutoff. I can't pack an order, calculate the total, and then hope I can contact the customer and I can get a PayPal verification within an hour. It's just not possible.
I do think the issues you brought up are valid ones. However, if hobbyists are so fired up about getting net caught fish I don't think things like not having a picture of a generic coral beauty or a paypal payment would get in their way. In fact, from what I understand most hobbyists prefer to use their credit card (via paypal or directly) so they have more buyer's protection in case of a problem. I still think the bottom line is that the average hobbyist just doesn't care. And it's a shame.
Oh gracious! I forgot to put in the most relevant point! It's not like SeaCrop is floundering. Actually we did a lot better for our first year out than I thought. Thousands and thousands of dollars worth of corals. If our current site design and company policies are able to sell lots of coral, there's no reason why it shouldn't be able to sell fish as well.
Sorry Mary,
I wasn't trying to point out anything specificly about your site. And thank you for the fast reply.
I know what you mean, hobbiests say one thing and do another. Been trying to educate folks around here, it's more like hitting my head against a brick wall. But I keep trying.
The only fish still alive in my tank are the net caughts or aquacultured.
Hey I guess I'm not the average hobbiest, I hang out with industry :wink:
I wasn't trying to point out anything specificly about your site. And thank you for the fast reply.
I know what you mean, hobbiests say one thing and do another. Been trying to educate folks around here, it's more like hitting my head against a brick wall. But I keep trying.
The only fish still alive in my tank are the net caughts or aquacultured.
Hey I guess I'm not the average hobbiest, I hang out with industry :wink:
naesco":28qgbgsp said:
Wayne, have you ever spent a Saturday at a LFS? Judging by your conclusions, I seriously doubt it...
Wayne concluded: 1. Hobbyists have money and are constantly increasing the size of their tanks.
Some do. Many do not. When I was first in the hobby I ate Kraft Dinner (Mac and Cheese to our American Friends) but I bought my "fish stuff". A handful of my customers make over $50K a year, but many of them don't. Many of them are on a shoestring with used equipment, lots of DIY and a desire to "do it right" and someday aspire to a bigger, better setup. A few upgrade here and there, but most buy what they can, and keep finding room for "just one more coral"... Many of my customers are students, teachers (teachers here are paid dirt), many blue-collar workers and a few executives. If I do my job right, once they are stocked, they become "casual" customers - wandering in for salt and fish food now and then, and for a look-see - and once in a very long while, to replace something that died of old age, or to trade in something that has outgrown the tank.
Wayne concluded: 2. Hobbyist are informed about the animals they choose to buy.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA excuse me while I fall down laughing. Truth is, most do NOT know what they are buying. We take the time to educate them as much as they are willing to learn. I have sold an average of 2 copies a WEEK of Fenner's Conscientious Marine Aquarist since I opened my doors (that's over 200 copies), and yet I can probably count on one hand the number of people who actually know that there is a chapter on cyanide use.... they are buying but not necessarily READING. There are a fair number of hobbyists who will settle down and listen, read and learn but sometimes it's only AFTER they pee on the proverbial electric fence. There is an alarming number who will go from shop to shop until they here what they WANT to hear ("Yes, sir, 4 tangs will be just fine in that, 30 gallon tank!") and then they call me to "fix" things when they frig it all up. Hard to be a diplomat sometimes and not say "I told you so" :roll: but that's the nature of the hobbyist sometimes.
If you don't believe me, go to any reef-related bulletin board, and search for "anemone" and see how many people ask about caring for the thing AFTER they have bought it, and/or AFTER it wanders around stinging corals and getting sucked into a powerhead. How about how many Mandarins are emaciated before the hobbyist with the 20 gallon asks what to feed it? How about how many people ask why their Flowerpot coral (Goniopora sp.) is receding after just 6 months. You, as a "Tang Police" member, know full well that many people do not know and do not care.
Did you know that only about 1/3 of hobbyists ever join an aquarium club or society? My data isn't as current as it could be, but when I wrote my business plan, I used APPMA data - in 1998 the figure was 29% - that means 71% rely on their own means to educate themselves - and a good chunk of those (I don't have the survey in front of me) rely on their LFS. That survey you touted hardly represents a "typical" group of hobbyists. Not even close. The APPMA survey was conducted THROUGH LFS - so a more balanced cross-section of opinions was procured, IMO. It didn't rely only on those who frequent Internet boards.
Wayne concluded: 3. Hobbyist want net caught for the right reasons.
Bullcrap. Hobbyists want CHEAP for the right reasons - their own reasons. There are a few who don't mind paying for quality - especially if they have been disappointed in the past by poor quality at cheap prices, but many are still so short-sighted they would rather pay for 3 @ $20 for one that lives, than for 1 @ $27 that lives the first time.
The dirty lie propagated within the industry on this side of the pond, is that ALL fish are net caught. You will never meet a wholesaler who will admit that he/she brings in juiced fish. NOT ever gonna happen. Ask anybody on 104th street, or environs - they will all swear on a stack of Bibles that they ONLY deal in net-caught fish. Where do all the juiced fish go? Somebody has to be buying them - but it's nobody that I've ever spoken with
I had to beat my head against the wall to figure it out - and while Gresham has made a point in other threads that even net caught fishes will die if not handled properly, and this is true - even carefully handled cyanide caught fish will have a higher mortality than clean caught fish. Since nobody's talking, everybody believes that they are getting net caught fish, no matter whence they buy. Even at that, many don't know that the cyanide problem still exists - most thing that became a thing of the past, 20 years ago.
Hobbyists want cheap. A few want quality but they want it with cheap too. If it is a choice between cheaper and better, most choose cheap - that's why the el-cheapo turn and burn call center who sends orders to the wholesaler for packing and shipping, does the business that it does - because it is a price game.
Wayne, if you ever feel like having a reality check, come on down to Georgia and spend a weekend here in my shop - you might learn something.
Jenn
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
But Jenn,
Philosophical purity is best maintained in a vacuum of human experience.
Spending time in your shop or my wharehouse would be too much of an eye opener.
We're about to have a big week in sales as lots of LA guys got bumped in airline space snafus. That determines our sales 100X more than any appeals to CONSCIENCE.
Thats why I post on this board...because real customers ie. 95% of them are far more interested in the sales page then supporting our stand against the trades worst practices.
Retailers don't hold it against us that the fish are netcaught. But they sure don't buy for those reasons. I have learned not to push it. We mention it and hand out a brochure or two, but we sure don't push it as we know it will just push them out the door.
MACs Market driven theory of compelling compliance in sustainable methodologies backwards thru the chain is already DOA.
Waiting for and 'educating' the market to demand that retailers demand that importers demand that exporters demand that poor people do it the way they want??
The market has already spoken loud and clear. They want great variety... all the time... in excellent condition... as cheap as the poor fisherman can provide it.
Jenns poll is far more credible. Marys as well. Living it daily is to poll daily and w/ far greater understanding than an outside the trade person trying to understand.
Steve
Philosophical purity is best maintained in a vacuum of human experience.
Spending time in your shop or my wharehouse would be too much of an eye opener.
We're about to have a big week in sales as lots of LA guys got bumped in airline space snafus. That determines our sales 100X more than any appeals to CONSCIENCE.
Thats why I post on this board...because real customers ie. 95% of them are far more interested in the sales page then supporting our stand against the trades worst practices.
Retailers don't hold it against us that the fish are netcaught. But they sure don't buy for those reasons. I have learned not to push it. We mention it and hand out a brochure or two, but we sure don't push it as we know it will just push them out the door.
MACs Market driven theory of compelling compliance in sustainable methodologies backwards thru the chain is already DOA.
Waiting for and 'educating' the market to demand that retailers demand that importers demand that exporters demand that poor people do it the way they want??
The market has already spoken loud and clear. They want great variety... all the time... in excellent condition... as cheap as the poor fisherman can provide it.
Jenns poll is far more credible. Marys as well. Living it daily is to poll daily and w/ far greater understanding than an outside the trade person trying to understand.
Steve
So what you have both confirmed to me is that industry will say and do anything to sell fish even if they know it is cyanide caught.
Also you confirmed that the most important consideration for hobbyists is simply price.
It follows therefore that to stop the damage cyanide is doing to the reefs and criminals involved, you must have government intervention because industry will do nothing and educating the hobbyist will not make a difference because all he is interested in in price.
Bring on Uncle Sam but after the election as the only way the Bush administration might get interested is if someone mentions fish oil.
Also you confirmed that the most important consideration for hobbyists is simply price.
It follows therefore that to stop the damage cyanide is doing to the reefs and criminals involved, you must have government intervention because industry will do nothing and educating the hobbyist will not make a difference because all he is interested in in price.
Bring on Uncle Sam but after the election as the only way the Bush administration might get interested is if someone mentions fish oil.
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
- Location
- San Francisco
Why yes Wayne,
Some care and many don't.
Some struggle to change things and many don't.
What else is new?
Is it any different up there? You know, to save old growth forests and cod? Fur seals and over-development of wild lands? etc.
Thank God that in the course of history, things worth fighting for were not just given up on every time it seemed difficult.
In the final analysis it is not the gravity of the problem that counts so much as the quality and commitment of the people trying to solve it.
This is a people problem all right. People get it wrong and therefore people could get it right.
Linking with and not alienating too many others who should count as allies is a good start. There are too many lone wolves in this subject area. Lone wolves that represent one...two opinions at best.
Thats not a good way to solve anything. If you attract no one to the cause it may mean a change of heart is in order.
In a meeting, a proposal has to be seconded at least in order to go futher. If votes are not gained, then the approach fails. On RDO, there is no end to the debate despite the lack of consensus is there?
Excessive freedom of speech practiced without support for a notion can sure water down serious discussion and ruin progress towards consensus.
I would take your routine call for a shutdown more seriously if others shared the view.
Don't be a lone wolf. Lone wolves die bitter and alone.
Steve
Some care and many don't.
Some struggle to change things and many don't.
What else is new?
Is it any different up there? You know, to save old growth forests and cod? Fur seals and over-development of wild lands? etc.
Thank God that in the course of history, things worth fighting for were not just given up on every time it seemed difficult.
In the final analysis it is not the gravity of the problem that counts so much as the quality and commitment of the people trying to solve it.
This is a people problem all right. People get it wrong and therefore people could get it right.
Linking with and not alienating too many others who should count as allies is a good start. There are too many lone wolves in this subject area. Lone wolves that represent one...two opinions at best.
Thats not a good way to solve anything. If you attract no one to the cause it may mean a change of heart is in order.
In a meeting, a proposal has to be seconded at least in order to go futher. If votes are not gained, then the approach fails. On RDO, there is no end to the debate despite the lack of consensus is there?
Excessive freedom of speech practiced without support for a notion can sure water down serious discussion and ruin progress towards consensus.
I would take your routine call for a shutdown more seriously if others shared the view.
Don't be a lone wolf. Lone wolves die bitter and alone.
Steve
Hail the Almighty "Government" - Omniscient and Solver of All Problems...
ZZZZZZIP - Reality check! What the **** does the "Government" know about the industry? NOTHING. That's probably why they don't have their noses in it already, and I am grateful about that.
Why ban all imports from PI/INDO? I'm getting perfectly wonderful fish every week from PI, and occasionally a few from Indo. I'm as sure as any MAC-Certified seller (*g*) that mine are cyanide free - they are healthy, they stay healthy, they are handled well, are kept well while in my care, and my customers benefit from this. So you would have the "Almighty Government" step in and take away MY livelihood, because "others" opt to buy juiced fish? Kinda unfair in my book. I'm not alone either - I'm probably in the minority, but then again, I would bet that a large percentage of LFS owners who don't get out much, have no clue either - and just accept mortality figures for what they are, and don't expect better, therefore they don't look for better. Just the fact that so much poor quality exists out there is testament to the fact that many (most?) settle for it.
There are those who opt to buy the non-target species from the wholesalers who also carry (potentially) cyanide caught fish, and then there are those such as myself who do not support the cyanide trade at all, we don't buy from sellers at all if there is reason to believe they have cyanide caught fish. You would choose to lump me in with the former group, even though I've gone out of my way to do it "right". No thanks, Wayne - we don't need that kind of help.
Jenn
ZZZZZZIP - Reality check! What the **** does the "Government" know about the industry? NOTHING. That's probably why they don't have their noses in it already, and I am grateful about that.
Why ban all imports from PI/INDO? I'm getting perfectly wonderful fish every week from PI, and occasionally a few from Indo. I'm as sure as any MAC-Certified seller (*g*) that mine are cyanide free - they are healthy, they stay healthy, they are handled well, are kept well while in my care, and my customers benefit from this. So you would have the "Almighty Government" step in and take away MY livelihood, because "others" opt to buy juiced fish? Kinda unfair in my book. I'm not alone either - I'm probably in the minority, but then again, I would bet that a large percentage of LFS owners who don't get out much, have no clue either - and just accept mortality figures for what they are, and don't expect better, therefore they don't look for better. Just the fact that so much poor quality exists out there is testament to the fact that many (most?) settle for it.
There are those who opt to buy the non-target species from the wholesalers who also carry (potentially) cyanide caught fish, and then there are those such as myself who do not support the cyanide trade at all, we don't buy from sellers at all if there is reason to believe they have cyanide caught fish. You would choose to lump me in with the former group, even though I've gone out of my way to do it "right". No thanks, Wayne - we don't need that kind of help.
Jenn
JennM":3vnx751q said:
Jenn,
We have a local MAC certified store just outside Chicago.
Having heard some rumblings about them, I went there to look for some fish.
Sure enough, what I heard was true...
I could not find a single MAC-certified fish.
I could not find a single MAC sticker nor brochure that was out and obvious.
It appears that they have given up selling MAC-certified fish.
Even if I wanted one, I cannot buy one locally.
Regards.
Mike Kirda
JennM HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA excuse me while I fall down laughing. Truth is said:FOTFLMAOAPMP
Jenn,
You are just way to funny
What I find hard to believe, Jenn, is that you still have fish on the weekends 8O Around here, ALL the fish are gone.
In fact, naesco, you should see the feeding frenzy on fishday. People grab the bags right out of the boxes and hold on to'em until someone figures how much to charge 8O Better than that, they pick them out of the tanks just after being dumped in.
Oh, almost forgot, Mary please don't ever compare yourself with the Dr.'s, you are sooooooo much better than them. If you must be compared with an e-tailer then go with Inland Aquatics :mrgreen:
Well come to think of it I got an order in from Mary last Tuesday but I had "nothing" left by the weekend ... and I insist on holding fish for a few days before I sell. Friday people come in and buy... they have been "hovering" since Tuesday *g*...
Wish I'd sell out every week - I've got one or two "ugly ducklings" that I've had since mid-02. At least it shows that my systems can support fish in the long-term. I just sold a green bullseye puffer, a week ago, that I bought from Steve in December of 02 :lol: Some stuff turns fast, some doesn't. Most of my customers are reefkeepers so the "fish only" fish tend to linger.
Jenn
Wish I'd sell out every week - I've got one or two "ugly ducklings" that I've had since mid-02. At least it shows that my systems can support fish in the long-term. I just sold a green bullseye puffer, a week ago, that I bought from Steve in December of 02 :lol: Some stuff turns fast, some doesn't. Most of my customers are reefkeepers so the "fish only" fish tend to linger.
Jenn
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