There has been this long standing belief that most of the fish sold in the USA are cyanide collected........Lets put this silly notion to the test. For every 1000 marine fish sold in the USA. How many of these thousand fish are from the collection areas considered to use cyanide? Hawaii, Florida Australia, Tonga, Solomon Islands, Fiji, Mexico, Vanuatu, phonape, Shrilanka, and others are producing more fish today then ever. While at the same time The Philippines are selling fewer and fewer fish each year for the past ten years. While PI is not the only country which may still be using cyanide to collect pet fish, places like Indonesia and The red Sea may have some collectors using the juice ......but at lesser levels then PI.But to make it easy to compare ,I will assume that PI , Indo and the Red Sea are all using the same levels of cyanide collection as PI . How many fish are these three locations producing?Estimates are that these three countries are contibuting to about 65 percent of the total imports to the USA. with PI well ahead of the other two in total fish produced. That translates into of every 1000 fish sold in the hobby. 650 are potential cyanide victims. Now of the fish sold in the Philippines, Test results of the four year study by the CDT showed for the most current three years of the test that only 16% to 17% of the fish randomly tested showed signs of cyanide exposer. So of the 650 fish in our group, only 17 percent of the 650 fish would have tested positive if tested in the country of the Philippines prior to export. This translates into only 110 fish of the 650 and only 110 fish of the 1000. But, It has been also proven that cyanide fish die at a greater rate during transport.{ DOA} This means that of the 110 cyanide fish and the 890 non cyanide fish .....more of the 110 cyanide fish will die during the transport time from the island of collection to the landing in the USA and the subsequent shipping to the LFS. As well as the first few days apon arriving in the retail fish store. So It would seem to reason that of the 110 fish in our group fifty percent will die along the three to five shipping steps it takes to get fish to the consumer......... that leaves 55 cyanide fish of 1000 remaining and being offered for sale in dealers tanks. But lastly, we seem to all agree that many cyanide collected fish will soon look sickly from the effects of the poison. This means that even after a cyanide collected fish finds its way to the dealers tank, many wont be chosen by consumers because they look ill. So , less then fifty-five of every 1000 fish being sold in the USA will have been exposed to cyanide. THATS about fivr percentage or less depending on if the fish is even chosen by the consumer over non cyanide collected fish. Then lastly if a cyanide collected fish makes it through all the difficulties of shipping and stress.............those 55 fish sure seem to be mighty hardy after all.......and it seems to reason that not all of those 55 fish will ever succumb to the effects of cyanide! How many cyanide collected fish are sold to hobbyists only to die from the poison? less then five percent............... :wink:
only 5% of sold fish are cyanide collected.
- Thread starter Kalkbreath
- Start date
Kalkbreath":3fv49ee1 said:
Already, piss-poor assumption... There is no testing facility available in Indo, but anecdotal reports place the numbers at worse then the Philippines.
When you base your house of cards on faulty assumptions, the entire rest of the argument is suspect.
Since this assumption is already false, the rest of the post isn't even worth reading, let along commenting on.
Next.
Even if Indonesia has a higher cyanide rate then PI {Of which there is no evidence} The numbers would only change slightly because not that many fish come from Indonesia ............................... from five percent to maybe ten percent if every fish from Indonesia was cyanide collected Your agenda is showing again, but this time your naked.
I play the stock market quite regularly. When I'm researching a stock, I'll always go over to the yahoo message boards just to see what is being said. 90% of the posts remind me of Kalk. Say XYZ stock is selling for $25 a share...
"XYZ stock will hit $50 tomorrow"
"XYZ stock will go bankrupt tomorrow"
A bunch of speculation based on nothing other than the posters personal position- long or short. Kalk is what we would call a "pumper" for the cyanide trade. Saying anything, making up numbers, making up scenarios all in an attempt to further the agenda of the cyanide trade. I seriously can not even read through more than a few sentences of his posts anymore. They're just so ridiculous. Just like over on the yahoo stock boards, most people will ignore the pumpers. Of course, a few idiots will believe it, invest their money and lose it all. But the smart ones just put the pumpers on ignore and continue about their lives....
"XYZ stock will hit $50 tomorrow"
"XYZ stock will go bankrupt tomorrow"
A bunch of speculation based on nothing other than the posters personal position- long or short. Kalk is what we would call a "pumper" for the cyanide trade. Saying anything, making up numbers, making up scenarios all in an attempt to further the agenda of the cyanide trade. I seriously can not even read through more than a few sentences of his posts anymore. They're just so ridiculous. Just like over on the yahoo stock boards, most people will ignore the pumpers. Of course, a few idiots will believe it, invest their money and lose it all. But the smart ones just put the pumpers on ignore and continue about their lives....
clarionreef
Advanced Reefer
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- San Francisco
Mary,
And this pumper doesn't even know that Bali is a state of Indonesia.
The incidence of Bali cyanide fish collecting, where most Indo fish are exported from is large.
The fact that numbers do not exist on a lot of this stuff is merely testimony to the fact that;
1. The trade has no interest in 'outing' itself [ duh]
2. And the scientific community has lagged far behind the reality curve on it. To be sure, they have a very small potion of the picture as they do no travel to Sulawesi, Sumbawa, Flores etc, on the 12 day long range boat trips that bring in so much of the fish supply.
This is why a CAMP process makes so little sense to real collecting communities. They range, they journey and they bang all over the place in unpredictable fashion. This fact doesn't force-fit well into the plans of would-be regulators of the trade...and the gulf of miscomprehension alienates them from real fisherman.
So long range boats carry at times dozens of kilos of cyanide on board and in some places leave a cache behind.
What really happens is way beyond Kalks access to gossip and any 'numbers'. In the total absence of numbers however, some have been known to simply invent them.
Indo is poisoning coral head niches in a geometrically accelerating fashion from dozens of collecting communities.
The one we fortified with the nets is the cleanest fish depot in the country.
Steve
And this pumper doesn't even know that Bali is a state of Indonesia.
The incidence of Bali cyanide fish collecting, where most Indo fish are exported from is large.
The fact that numbers do not exist on a lot of this stuff is merely testimony to the fact that;
1. The trade has no interest in 'outing' itself [ duh]
2. And the scientific community has lagged far behind the reality curve on it. To be sure, they have a very small potion of the picture as they do no travel to Sulawesi, Sumbawa, Flores etc, on the 12 day long range boat trips that bring in so much of the fish supply.
This is why a CAMP process makes so little sense to real collecting communities. They range, they journey and they bang all over the place in unpredictable fashion. This fact doesn't force-fit well into the plans of would-be regulators of the trade...and the gulf of miscomprehension alienates them from real fisherman.
So long range boats carry at times dozens of kilos of cyanide on board and in some places leave a cache behind.
What really happens is way beyond Kalks access to gossip and any 'numbers'. In the total absence of numbers however, some have been known to simply invent them.
Indo is poisoning coral head niches in a geometrically accelerating fashion from dozens of collecting communities.
The one we fortified with the nets is the cleanest fish depot in the country.
Steve
MaryHM":sbrr8dkn said:
Mary,
If only...
I asked the RDO admins if they would consider putting a mod on phpBB- one where you can specify nicks to ignore. You could read a thread, but it would never return posts from your nick ban list. (It is exceedingly simple to do in SQL, which this board is based on...)
Unfortunately, they decided against adding this feature.
I'll give you one guess which single person was headed straight for my ban list...
Regards.
Mike Kirda
Once again, not one shred to back up your silly claims .....Even Mary cant explain her position, other then to say that her fish are better so buy them from her...........Funny how when the test results go your way like Peters CDT results you tout the results without ever actually thinking about what your stating. Less then twenty percent of the fish tested positive.....and over fifty percent of the fish die before reaching the consumer....{This is what you all claimed}....Thats using your numbers .........IM still waiting for someone to challenge the numbers .......and explain themselves...........your days are over misleading the public. Less then five percent of fish reaching the hobbyists are cyanide collected . If you can explain otherwise then do so .................
Kalkbreath":3u7itpwr said:
Round and round and round we go...
Where Kalk stops, nobody knows...
Kalk, estimates of cyanide fish capture in Indonesia run as high as 80 and 90%. I've got that from three independent sources. (Personal communication)
Indeed, Rubec's paper crunching the results of CDT numbers is a conservative lower estimate of actual results. When I ask people within the Industry in the Philippines what they think of the results, most think that they are wrong by a factor of two or three. The perception is that for most species, the average caught with cyanide is 50-75%.
Why the difference? As I have posted numerous times in the past, the CDT was easy to get around. As an exporter, you order in some fish from one of your net-caught guys and those are what you send in for testing.
You can get 100% negative results that way.
So, again, your entire argument is based on piss-poor assumptions.
The actual rate is higher than reflected in Rubec's paper. How high is difficult to say, but let's use 50% for PI and 70% for Indo. Those are 20% off what many claim them to be, and so are conservative estimates.
And as for shred, where is yours for Indo?
Kalkbreath":1fj92jy7 said:
no need to explain my position kalk, you have won in your attempt to explain the truth- i humbly bow before your superior knowledge, and intellect
i would think that now that all of your correct and detail oriented factual research has been posted, it should be enough to convince anyone who reads your info,as to the veracity of your truth
no more argumentation on my behalf is necessary
Let's see here...
For the data that is available, over four years, the average positive result rate on the CDT was 25%.
Given: Indonesia and Philippines account for approximately 70-80% of the fish trade.
Assumption: Indonesia is widely thought of to be worse, cyanide-wise, than the Philippines. For the purposes of this, we will assume that they are equal.
If 70% of the fish supply averages 25% positive for cyanide, what would the total percentage be assuming that the other 30% is zero?
25% times 70% equals 14%, given conservative assumptions.
25% times 80% equals 20%, going with the upper level of 80% of the fish trade coming from Indo/PI.
Basic math does not support Kalkbreath's assertion that only 5% of the fish sold in the US are cyanide collected. Rather, the actual amount is three to four times that number, even going with conservative estimates.
Standing naked, but don't let that distract you from the math above...
Mike Kirda
For the data that is available, over four years, the average positive result rate on the CDT was 25%.
Given: Indonesia and Philippines account for approximately 70-80% of the fish trade.
Assumption: Indonesia is widely thought of to be worse, cyanide-wise, than the Philippines. For the purposes of this, we will assume that they are equal.
If 70% of the fish supply averages 25% positive for cyanide, what would the total percentage be assuming that the other 30% is zero?
25% times 70% equals 14%, given conservative assumptions.
25% times 80% equals 20%, going with the upper level of 80% of the fish trade coming from Indo/PI.
Basic math does not support Kalkbreath's assertion that only 5% of the fish sold in the US are cyanide collected. Rather, the actual amount is three to four times that number, even going with conservative estimates.
Standing naked, but don't let that distract you from the math above...
Mike Kirda
You take six months backing up and defending Peters study and the testings by the CDT in 1996 throuh2000 and Pages after pages of your defense of the study . Months and months of defending the idea that 30% of the fish die during each stage of the transport sytem from the islands ...........................Then when you realize WHAT all your data means in the real world, Suddenly NOW YOU AGREE WITH ME! ..........That every ounce of data ever produced from indusrtry testing is now unreliable and out of touch with the real world............... :wink:mkirda":2iqqmv5w said:
You forgot to exclude the fact that 20 % of the cyanide fish die during export each of the three stages of transport. {A notion you have continually supported }20% less 20% less20% ...................... So about fifty percent of your twenty percent nver reach the consumers........would leave ten percent remaining to be sold . I also only used the last three years of Peters study 8% 18% and 29% inpart because Peter left off the most current data off his findings {2000, 2001} SO I left off the years 1997 AND 1996. So the most current three years of testing availible 1997 1998 2000 are what combine to average 19 percent cyanide testings. All 19 percent. dont reach the USA.......Some even suggest that 80% of these fish die befor being sold........DO YOU KNOW WHO THAT PERSON MAY BE? :wink:mkirda":38f1eoko said:
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