AMDA - Where are you?!

[JT]

Especially on stateside issues that support retailers directly? Such as, education!

Now, I won't post the exact email I just received but here is the jist of it. New store, name that implies a specialization in saltwater fish, but wants me to tell him how to setup his 10 tanks, largest of which is a single 75 gal., because he doesn't know how. "1 tank for corals, 1 for anemones and inverts, and 8 for fish".

Umm, there is something wrong with this picture.

- Uncle JT
The original cranky, arogant bastard serving the boards since 1995

 

[Anonymous]

Leave me alone, JT! I know how to set up a store!

I was just asking for some advice...sheesh!



Peace,

Chip

 

[Anonymous]

And, in the winter, do I have to heat the garage that I'm putting the tanks in; or is a Visi-Therm in each tank good enough? :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

Doctor Benton Quest, I presume!



Peace,

Chip

 

[Anonymous]

Doctor Benton Quest, I presume!



Peace,

Chip

But of course, Mr. Marillion. But they know me around here as Lee. Good to meet ya.

-Lee

 

[clarionreef]

Hmm,
We get these a lot. People wanting to know how to set up shop and make money in the fish business. [ One things for sure...they shouldn't ask me.]
Even AMDA members often seem to think the whole point is to GET benefit...instead of unite to GIVE it.
I thought the idea was to join a trade group to foster concerns of sustainable practices, better care thru-out the processing of livestock [ not just at retail ] and promote a defensible methodology vis a vis "harvesting".
If the heat is off and the trade is out of danger, I can see why people will drift back towards self interest. Who knows...perhaps the NGOs alluded to in Lees other post have 'calmed' the fear that the trade is doing nothing to behave properly. [whether it is or not is a different matter].
Perhaps the placebo really does work and the heart of the matter will never really be adressed. Business is hard enough without asking people to donate time and money to... save themselves...
To help others set up fish stores...is an idea for a different org. Something like a chamber of commerce for er...fish stores.
Thats got little to do with the AMDA John Tullock envisioned.
If its not the environmental mission...I have little interest in it myself.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

If its not the environmental mission...I have little interest in it myself.
Steve

Same here.

But sadly there is only interest from most if their livestock supply is going to be affected. If a government entity theatens legal sanction you can watch enrollment in the "green" groups go up. Hate to say it, but only government intervention is going to make a significant dent in the status quo.

-Lee

 

[Anonymous]

so there's no interest from the amda in educating lfs's/lfs wannabee's? what about hobbyists ?

i would think that's a part of the broader environmental issues, no ?

how can concern for the environmental issues come about, if educating lfs's (the MAJOR source of info for most beginner hobbyists) isn't addressed?


"hello, i'm starting an lfs and would like to know if you can either tell me, or point me to the proper info on how to set it up for the well being of my livestock i will be selling"


"go start a local chamber of commerce for lfs's, you have nothing to do w/our conservation ideals"

:roll:


how do you expect to get grass roots support/ reform if the roots are ignorant?

i find it interesting that both of you seem to make a division/polarization between the consumers and the environment the consumers are affecting

i think they're too interconnected to make that distinction/division, and deal w/the environmental issues effectively

if it's a dealer's association, shouldn't it also help those who are beginning dealers to do a better job ?

does exclusionism work ?

 

[clarionreef]

Yikes,
If government intervention is the only thing that makes people 'CARE' then its not really caring...but covering ones butt...as a self oriented business tactic.
The problem is, "environmental concern" born in this fashion is shallow and not in it for the long haul or when the going gets rough.
Kinda like Mc Donalds hamburgers position paper on thre environment....
5 true believers equal 100 phoney baloneys anytime.
Steve

 

[clarionreef]

Vitz,
100 % Volunteer work to help other private businesses start up is an odd notion. Especially when you have your own full-time/over-time job.
There are hundreds of start ups a year...few of them for environmental reasons.
If you have so much generousity of spirit and time on your hands, I suggest you hold the hand of the poster JT spoke of and see if you can't show the way.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

did i say it has to be volunteer work, or born out of generosity of spirit?

at the least, it's just good business and environmental sense, as i see it, anyway

you can't chop off the hands, and expect the body to feed itself

what about pay courses in aquatic husbandry for lfs's ? it would certainly help show orgs like the amda who's willing to put their money where their mouth is :wink:

isn't this something that lines up exactly w/amda's mission statement?

here's a q.....

do you only sell livestock to lfs's that you physically verify are practicing environmentally proper practices ?

if not, how can you claim any type of moral superiority from an environmental standpoint?

is it a matter of acquiring/supplying netting negating the effect of an unscrupulous lfs selling your livestock they purchase from you ?

i'm not being a wiseass here,it's a question/issue i think is very important to address, and one the answers to which i keep seeing here seem to be contradictory to each other, or to the proffessed goals/values of those giving the answers

i would think that anyone who contributes to the money chain by selling livestock to b&m's has just as much culpability for the environmental issues those b&m's, and eventually hobbyists, contribute to, no?


i would also think that if the environmental issues are the prime, or even , only concern, you should get out of the fish biz, since it's being in that biz that is helping to bring about some of these problems to begin with :wink: (that was a mildly wiseass comment, but the moral issue is there for all wholesalers/importers/exporters)

how is establishing proper holding techniques, etc. going to help the reefs, if the livestock is still going to be wasted through unnecessary deaths at the end of the chain? the demand arrived at through that waste will still make the demand greater than the supply

while starting at the beginning of the chain is good, i don't think it means one should/can ignore the end of the chain-both need to be fixed

i think it's part of the reason why hobbyist outreach is an important part of our (corl) mission statement

it's like developing cleaner technology for gasoline production, while ignoring emission standards/more efficient engines - both need to get done, or the environment still gets screwed anyway no? :?

 

[Anonymous]

did i say it has to be volunteer work, or born out of generosity of spirit?

Well lets see here, you were questioning Steve about AMDA, which is entirly a volunteer org, with very little money to hire staffer, so yes, if it was thru AMDA, it would be volunteer. No one in AMDA gets paid a dime from AMDA, unlike most NGO's like MAC, IMA, Haribon and CORL.

 

[Anonymous]

while starting at the beginning of the chain is good, i don't think it means one should/can ignore the end of the chain-both need to be fixed

Steve tried the "eduacate the masses" approach for 20 years Vitz, he's finally come to realize that the hobbyists care more about a deal then the environment. 30+ articles in the most popular aquarium mags around sure didn't stop the cyaniders did it? It scared them, but with out any back up from the hobbyists on the subject, without any pressure on the wholesalers from the LFS and without the wholesalers pressuring the exporters, NOTHING WENT DOWN. As I see it, the hobbyists failled they're calling, as did the LFS's, and the wholesalers alike. They were provided with the ammo to go to war, yet they sat on it, and are still sitting on it. I don't see what new info will sway them, but if CORL can eduacate the masses into better buying habits, cool! Will there be any clean fish when CORL eduacates the masses? Is CORL going to do anything about fish supply, or is it going to turn its head and only produce farmed coral for the "eduacated masses"? If CORL provides only farmed coral, doesn't do anything about the habitat destruction, is that really helping anything? Woah, thats almost a direct quote from your post:

it's like developing cleaner technology for gasoline production, while ignoring emission standards/more efficient engines - both need to get done, or the environment still gets screwed anyway no?

 

[Anonymous]

did i say it has to be volunteer work, or born out of generosity of spirit?

Well lets see here, you were questioning Steve about AMDA, which is entirly a volunteer org, with very little money to hire staffer, so yes, if it was thru AMDA, it would be volunteer. No one in AMDA gets paid a dime from AMDA, unlike most NGO's like MAC, IMA, Haribon and CORL.

:?:

why turn this into an amda vs ngo's, amda vs. corl argument ? it really has nothing to do w/my q, or my points :?


a: i don't think your list is correct - CORL is supported partly from it's staff's own out of pocket support, and volunteer help/staff-in fact, as a non-paid staff member, i find your remark abit off color, and inaccurate-i'm pretty sure corl's head has yet to see any type of pay through corl, either, much of corls setup and operating expenses come from his own pocket, as well

we're certainly as much a volunteer org as amda is,to the best of my knowledge

b:but why would charging for the course make it non volunteer?
:?

the amda is made up of businesses, is it not?

what's wrong with charging for education? universities,colleges and many ngo's charge for education services, at least to cover the ops expense?

where did i say that i'm asking for amda to pay it's staff?

i'm asking why amda can't charge for educational courses, at least to cover the expenses of offering such a course, to help further (as i see it) it's conservation goals, i certainly never even hinted that the venture needs to be monetary profitable directly to those involved in it short term

the end result should be a monetary bettering for all concerned, though

what's so wrong/bad w/that?

between all the members of the amda, no one can offer some time to educate the very stores that are its members ?

corl provides educational material for 'sale' (donations)not to so much topay it's staff, but to provide a source of revenue so that corl can continue doing conservation work, much the same way pbs does fundraising selling videos of its programs so it can keep broadcasting quality tv



it seems as if y'all are saying that anything that needs money to get accomplished and can't be done voluntarily alone, isn't worth pursuing

it takes money to get nets, does it not?
why should needing/charging money to educate be any less noble?

 

[Anonymous]

while starting at the beginning of the chain is good, i don't think it means one should/can ignore the end of the chain-both need to be fixed

Steve tried the "eduacate the masses" approach for 20 years Vitz, he's finally come to realize that the hobbyists care more about a deal then the environment. 30+ articles in the most popular aquarium mags around sure didn't stop the cyaniders did it? It scared them, but with out any back up from the hobbyists on the subject, without any pressure on the wholesalers from the LFS and without the wholesalers pressuring the exporters, NOTHING WENT DOWN. As I see it, the hobbyists failled they're calling, as did the LFS's, and the wholesalers alike. They were provided with the ammo to go to war, yet they sat on it, and are still sitting on it. I don't see what new info will sway them, but if CORL can eduacate the masses into better buying habits, cool! Will there be any clean fish when CORL eduacates the masses? Is CORL going to do anything about fish supply, or is it going to turn its head and only produce farmed coral for the "eduacated masses"? If CORL provides only farmed coral, doesn't do anything about the habitat destruction, is that really helping anything? Woah, thats almost a direct quote from your post:

it's like developing cleaner technology for gasoline production, while ignoring emission standards/more efficient engines - both need to get done, or the environment still gets screwed anyway no?

where DO you get your info from, gresham? :lol:

corl does both farming AND conservation work for reef protection-read the nl both are stated and shown to be integral parts of the corl philosophy, all the way through education of the general public/hobbyist

:roll: :?

 

[Anonymous]

I'm talking about cyanide fishing and they likes, you know, tha activities that don't go on in American Samoa! FWIW, theres many more countries that are way worse off, then American Samoa. How is CORL (or corl as you type it) teaching cyaniders to get off cyanide? If they continue to destroy the habitat with cyanide, and corl "reseeds" the reef, will that help? Yup, it'll give a new head for the cyaniders to juice.

 

[PeterIMA]

Reply to Vitz and others,

I think it is unfortunate that AMDA has attacked the NGOs that got grants and did net training. Perhaps it could have been done better. However, the NGOs are not the ones to blame. The trade (including trade groups like PIJAC and OFI, retailers, importers, and exporters) have not done much to fund net trainings. That is still the problem. I have worked with Steve and others (through IMA, OVI, and Haribon) to implement net trainings back to 1985. Steve is right that the trade has not supported these efforts. It is difficult to convince the "trade" to put money into sustainable collection methods (like net collecting) or farming coral reef organisms (like farming corals, giant clams, or live rock). Some of this may happen through larger companies (like Walt Smith's, Segrest) but the benefits will be for individual companies, and not the general good of the trade or for conservation of coral reefs and associated marine resources.

However, I still believe that Steve is right and that AMDA can play an important role in providing AMDA dealers with superior reef products (like net-caught fish that live, and farmed coral frags). There are initiatives in the works that may still allow this to happen. AMDA needs to create the AMDA Network; which would link responsible collectors with responsible retailers.

Peter Rubec

 

[Anonymous]

cyanide is the only reef conservation issue that bears merit to deal with ?

what if the local awareness achieved a further awareness into other issues, like cyanide ?

would you also discount the importance of artificial reef construction technique developement/reef restoration as being valueless because it's not directly involved w/cyanide issues ?

there are many pieces to the puzzle, everyone picks which piece they think they can help with

why do you think corl ISN"T concerned w/cyanide? simply because it chooses a different tack?

what if reef restoration in other areas reduces collection presures already existent? wouldn't that also help reduce the use of cyanide elsewhere ?

it's not as polarized an issue as you make it out to be, methinks

 

[Mike King]

Talofa,

Unfortunately I don’t have the time to respond to the post about CORL and its goals today. I have a major coral farming and reef restoration workshop tomorrow that will be the start of another village based CORL farm. (Action = forward progress, Talk = a sore ass from sitting too long on it)
I will respond in length within the next few days to the contentions some have been stating here about CORL and its mission. I suggest those involved so far visit the CORL website and read its mission statement and goals before making such statements. It would also help to inform you more about CORL if you were to read our news letter which is posted on the site.

Mike

 

[Anonymous]

I've never understood how saving the fish and the reef from one poison, only to kill them with another made sense. It is up to the LFS's to figure out how to sell quality fish and still make money, without hurting the environment. It is up to the wholesalers to figure out how to aquire healthy fish and ship them in an appropriate manner, without hurting the environment. Not because the hobbyist demands it, but because the livlihood depends on it. Retail is all about telling people what they need, and then convincing them to buy it. The excuse of "it's not what the hobbyists want" is a poor one. Having an organization that is interested in dealing with both issues makes good sense. Giving up on an organization because their scope of interest is broader than yours is selfish.