Could we all quit competing and work together to achive a ?

[coralfarmin]

Dr Mac
thanks for your time agin
I hope I can be as well collected in my thoughts as you one day in this industry
I have never seen you try to belittle anyone..but yes in fact have seen it here..atleast what I thought it to be
I may change my veiw on this as I do several other veiws
I have infact in the past been in the industry retailing..my sucess was not as I hoped I was not prepared for the overwhelming responsibilitys that my venture intaled
I mainly sold through a website I had at the time a few years back & ebay
I do have 100% positive feedback but have not sold anything in a good while..I will reopen the ebay store as well
I took all my hard learned lessons to heart and decided to try agin when I was more educated on the business end
I had problems with keeping insulated boxs at a reasonable price,dealing with sales reps on a comission etc etc..In my time of resaerch I have found a semi local eps manufacture for custom blanks at a fair price,and many many new contacts and srategies to incorperate into my new business plan
I do however like to try to pick peoples brains here and have found that most people that really want to help me either email or pm me with there insite after reading somethin I wrote here
there are also some that dont mind publicly helping as well such as yourself
I do think though that after much thought on your first post that you were right
I will probably try to keep more quite and just lurk
even if someone has the best intentions with a thread it seems someone will try to put some type negative spin on it and change the scope of the thread alot of times.. imo


thanxs agin

 

[naesco]

Dr Mac

Postscript

Thank you for posting in this forum.

 

[coralfarmin]

Dr. Mac
I quess saying they belittle was a little strong..
but definantly try to discourage and undermind..imo
or flex mental muscles

 

[PlaneCrazy]

It's funny....I posted pretty much this same frustration a few months back. I definately didn't get as much discussion. It's also funny that today I got my (possibly final) order from a very popular 104th St. wholesaler. I say possibly final because yet again they screwed me. I'm a little fish in a big pond. I don't want everything handed to me on a silver platter, but geez. Is it really just volume? Do the sales reps really give a rats behind about the little guy? I'm beginning to think not. This is the 3rd shipment in a row that I got less than 50% fill and had DOA. If the industry continues to support this practice, how is that good in the long term? Now, not all in the industry do this. I have used one supplier that I met here that has a great fill rate. Unfortunately, they just didn't have what I needed this week. In retrospect, I didn't get what I needed anyway. Am I the only person who has these issues? Have I just not been in business long enough to figure things out? I am hoping that the latter is true. So, once again I'm looking for suppliers.....PM me if you'd like.
I do need to say that on the retail side of things, everyone I talk to has been extremely helpful and very willing to try to help. So if you are in a position to do so, please help the newbies so one day we can return the favor.

-Aaron

 

[naesco]

Utilizing fill and high DOA rates are common practices and have been discussed by industry at length. Some will have you believe that it is not a problem but the whole industry knows it is a major problem.
As you are well aware the fill often contains fish which have no possibility of success in a reefers tank and often die in yours.
This practise cannot be tolerated and will soon be illegal IMO as the result is major DOA from the importer to the hobbyists.
DO NOT accept or pay for fill and you will get the message accross to them.

 

[Anonymous]

Wayne, when he was talking about fill rates, he was talking about things HE DIDN'T RECIEVE (not adding things he want) ordered x amount but only recieved y. I wish you (Wayne) as a hobbyist would at least make a small effort to learn what you've read here in the past 4 years since you've been around. If your gonna try to give advice in this arena, you'd better at leat understand what it is were taling about

One refused shipment is the last time you do business with that shipper/wholesaler.

Most wholesalers make their stock report on what they are quoted as going to recieve. 100+ orders comes in to each wholesaler figuring that the stock report is correct. The more errors, the lower the fill. The larger the run on a certain item, the less to go around. We are at the mercy of the wild, bad weather, etc, all determines the wholesalers stock. Seasonal availability is a nother factor. Fish come from the sea, not from lists. Anyone can fill in a blank, but not anyone can have that item in stock 100% of the time.

FWIW, I never send out less then around a 80% fill The smaller the wholesaler, the easier it is to have an accurate stock report. If we have a large run on a item, and we have orders in hand, we'll spread that item out amongst all those who orderred it.

God, I can't belive you Wayne, you spout the most inaccurate posts I've ever had the displeasure of reading.

 

[Anonymous]

Plane it seems to be a very common practice. Seems one lfs here is always getting the short end of the stick. Never gets what they ordered, while another who uses the same wholesaler does. All depends on what day they place an order. LFS #1 likes to order from wholesaler X lots of tangs on Monday, while lfs #2 reads the stocking lists and notices that tangs are due to arrive at the wholesaler X on Tues. He places his order on Tues. and gets lots of tangs. Neither gets anywhere near Cortez's 80% fill rate, but lfs #2 is learning that timeing is everything! He's also getting into that "if you don't have what I order, then put something else in to fill up the order" mentality.

 

[dizzy]

Most wholesalers indicate the quantity on hand, in some manner. If it is expected in they should indicate that as well. I like the ones that list the actual number they have so you can predict your own chance of gettting certain fish (or corals) and order accordingly. I generally tell my suppliers not to sub other than size, and they don't. I really can't imagine that this is much of a problem. I've tried pretty much all of the major wholesalers that have been around for a while and never had any serious problem from any of them. I believe there are stores that try to cheat the wholesalers by lying about DOA and no wholesaler wants these deadbeats for customers. Some stores also bounce checks and stiff wholesalers on open accounts when they go under. Overall the wholesalers are a decent bunch of hard working folks trying to earn a living in a competitive business.
Mitch

 

[naesco]

Sorry Plane I misread your post.
I thought you were referring to the common practice of wholesalers ridding themselves of fish they did not order from exporters, "fill".

 

[PlaneCrazy]

I think I may have steered this a little off topic, so I apologize for that. I have to agree with most of the above statements. I do believe that the majority of wholesalers are decent people and do their best. But, legally I cannot advertize something I don't have, so why does this supplier? I know that they have a very quick turnaround (sometimes hours) and sell out very quickly. I personally don't believe this to be a sound business practice, but who am I to judge. Actually, I guess I am judging....with my money. They won't be getting any more of it.

-Aaron

 

[Dr. Mac1]

Its a difficult business at every step, from collection ( I suppose--no actual experience at that end) through wholesaler and eventually retailer.

Over the years I have refused to deal with wholesalers that add items I do not order, to the point of demanding refunds for items not asked for but sent even at times despite saying do not send a specific item and then getting that very item anyway. I have also been a real pain and very demanding of the quality I buy. This has caused me a lot of headaches with many wholesalers to the point of some of the major ones telling me they can not make money off of me because I want only quality stock and refuse their junk, only so many cherries and you can't have that many they tell me, but I keep coming back for more.

So, OK, I am very selective. Does this always work in my favor, no of course not, but it does help to some extent. And, if you buy in enough consistent volume then it also has an impact. Having said this there are no surefire ways to get better stock or a better fill rate, as I have said before---what comes in must go out from the perspective of the wholesaler. It has been said to me many times over the years, if you don't buy it someone else will. For everyone that watches this forum there likely are hundreds of small stores that weekly gobble up any offerings from the same wholesaler that I am badgering to get only the best product from. I have recently had wholesalers tell me sorry can't send out your $2500 order we are just too busy with other customers. So, the demand obviously far exceeds the supply especially when it comes to the better stock and so if the collector and importer/wholesaler is making money then don't expect to see any changes. Telling them you will buy a lot more from them if they are just kind of nice to you is one surefire way to get crapped on, sorry to be blunt but that has been my experience.

Now, the real gripe is with wholesalers that send out lists of items the retailer assumes the wholesaler actually has in stock when really they do not. Thus, you order and assume you will get what you order or at least a good percentage (fill rate) and whammy you get maybe 50% plus some stuff you did not ask for. Not all whlosealers are this way, there are a few that update their lists daily and actually have what they say they have, there are some that never make a list---it is up to you to call nonstop to find out what they have, and there are the majority that just put all kinds of stuff on a list either hoping they get it in or just as a come on to get you to call and ask for those nice items knowing all along they do not have them and they get you to order fill ins that actually wind up being the bulk of your order.

I guess everyone quickly finds out who has the good lists and who does not and who subs and who does not. One thing that does help is to go out and visit these folks, see their operations. Go there on a Monday and see for yourself what they actually have compared to that list they just sent out Sunday and have not actually shipped anything out yet and you will soon see who the pretenders are. Monday is probably one of the most difficult days to get what you want becasue so many stores order on Monday, after all most wholesalers send their lists out over the weekend so no suprise they get so many orders Monday, but then some act like gee we are so swamped that we can't fill your order---well hire more help then if business is so good or send your list out on another day or something. Some wholesalers only get their stock in over the weekend so if you are not first in line Monday forget about getting any goodies, others get stock in throughout the week so you are better ordering later in the week from them, and others encourage a lot of local LA walk-ins so forget getting too many goodies from them. It is a challenge to get good stock and the stock you think you can sell and once you think you have it figured out then you get brought back down to reality. Its a really tough end of the business consistently acquiring good stock and what you ask for, hobbyists never concern themselves with this aspect, and rightly so, and it can make or break your business.

Please don't take me wrong though, I'm venting to a certain extent just like many of others here. There are good, or at least better, wholesalers out there. They are bound by what the collectors send them and that is always quite variable and their end of the business is no cake walk either. I appreciate the ones that are honest enough to tell me, hey this week we don't have the level of quality you expect so we can sell it to someone else check back next week.

I have actually found some awesome tranship collectors that provide me with great corals, fish, and inverts, exactly what I ask for, and with little if any mortality even sent to the East Coast and often with an additional days delay from airline screw ups--nver yet had more than 5% mortality even when the shipment was delayed an additional day and there is no phoney reox or so-called repack either. Water is crystal clear in Acros and I get exactly the numbers and even the colors I ask for. Problem is with paying for the freight and corals, etc. it is tough to offer them at an LA competitive price as far as wholesale, from the retail point of view it works out great. I still get a bunch of stuff from the regular wholesalers too though. So, keep lookin' around there are some good guys out there. Charge enough for your cherries to cover the not so cherry and the dead stuff and you should be profitable.

 

[JT]

One of the problems with LA stocklists, present company included, is that when the lists are generated on Sat. or Sun., alot of the product is 'forecasted' for what may be coming in. The majority of the product that arrives in LA comes in late in the day on Sunday. The stocklists are created based on two factors, inventory on hand as of the end of the week and what is scheduled to come in. Now, the problem with the later is that some times shipments that we have packing lists for get off-loaded and end up not coming in. Often times, this isn't learned until after the stocklist is created and sent out. In some rare cases, there may be high incoming mortality that severly limits the quantity on hand.

Now, as a sales rep. in So. Cal, I can let you in on a little secret to ensure that you get a better fill rate. On the morning your order is scheduled to ship out, call your sales rep. and have him do a walkthrough of the system with you. This accomplishes two things, you'll get a more accurate picture of how your order will be filled and it will also alert you to any new items that may have come in since you placed your order. Always insist on doing a walkthrough in some fashion, even if it's a 'quickie', with your sales rep., the good ones will never refuse to do this for you.

One of the keys to being a good sales rep. in LA is always knowing your inventory. I wish I had picked up on this a little earlier in my career, but I've got it now. :wink:

- JT

 

[Dr. Mac1]

JT is certainly right, a walkthru is a great way to get exactly what you want. The company he works for has the absolute worst stock list I have enountered--without fail everything under the sun each week on the list but most is never actually in stock, sorry JT, but they are very willing to do a walkthru with you on the phone so you will get 100% fill rate, and some nice stock too. Most other wholesalers will not do this walkthru with you on the phone, often they are in a backroom working the phones and don't know what is actually in stock.

 

[JT]

I personally hate stock lists, they are never accurate regardless of who it is. If I was a retailer, I'd want to see one to two pages with specials and key items and then rely on the sales rep. to tell me what's good and to do a walkthrough with.

- JT

 

[JennM]

Good points from Mitch, Dr. Mac and JT!

I have found the earlier in the week I order (read: the closer to the time the stock list was generated), the better fill rate I have. If I get a stock list on Saturday but don't order til Thursday... guess what? Everybody else has bought it all already.

Communication is another key. As JT and Steve know all too well, I'm anal to the nth about subs. I make notes on the stock list/order sheet.. stuff like "sub for size OK" or "NO SUBS" or "Sub X or Y but not Z". I try to be as specific as I can be, because it would be impossible for reps to remember every quirk for every customer, so the more explicit I can be, the easier it is for the rep to know how much lattitude he or she has.

As Dr. Mac mentioned... for every shopkeeper like myself who is really particular, there's probably dozens who don't know and/or don't care... spend $X and fill up Y amount of boxes. They are the ones likely to get all the unsuitable "crap" that we discriminating ones don't want... sorry to put it so bluntly, but that's how it goes. An aquaintance of mine in the business, recommended a wholesaler to another LFS owner, singing their praises about the good stuff he got... but the new customer wasn't very specific about what he wanted and he got a box load of Goniopora, Dendronepthya and a pile of other creatures that typically don't do well... well wholesaler's got to move them.. can't inflict them on somebody in the know, so the uninformed get 'em. Not saying it's right, but that's unfortunately how it works sometimes.

JT and Steve and Gresham all know how I can blow their hair back if I get something I absolutely don't want *g* - and in my experience they take care of these oversights in some form or fashion. (Thanks, guys! )

Occasionally I've been pleasantly surprised by subs... something I haven't seen on a list, or ordered before... as long as it's reasonably hardy and (preferably) reef-safe (since most of my customers have reef tanks, not FO). Again this comes from a rep being in tune with my way of doing things. Rep takes a chance and subs something on spec that I'll approve, and if I do, I'll end up ordering more... win/win that way.

It doesn't take long in this business, to figure out how the "fill rate" thing works. I usually order $X worth of livestock, usually more than I want to spend, EXPECTING that it won't all be there... so then I give a budget.. "Please keep me at $Y or less", note what's OK to sub and what's not OK to sub, and let my rep do his or her thing. I have found this to be quite satisfactory.

Customers, on the other hand, sometimes don't understand that if the divers on the other side of the planet didn't manage to collect a given specimen that week, or that there weren't any when I ordered them... I think many hobbyists never give a moment's consideration about just HOW the fish come to be in the LFS tanks... they think they are mass-produced like powerheads or salt... you can't just conjure something up because they decide they want it... but we work to educate folks about that, about CITES quotas and why at certain times of year, certain corals are scarce etc.

Steering this back to the topic at hand... this is one of the main reasons why folks in the biz aren't exactly willing to divulge their livestock sources... because each week there are a finite number of organisms available - and when we luck in to a source we're happy with, if we share that information with another business, then we're competing with them to gobble up the share of "good stuff".

Jenn

 

[coralfarmin]

Dr mac
I have the utmost respect for you and you have been one of my idols for a long time
But I do have to disagree with the industry forum not being productive
I have learned alot of good and bad about people and the industry here

I guess you were right all along mac..live and learn I quess.
I will just spend more time on my coral farm from now on, and spend less time try'n to learn all about the politics behind the industry

and stick to my dream of being a great coral farmer like you one day, for now