CNN Marine Ornamental Fish Story from Hawaii

[nanocat]

I OKey , I didn't keep up ........too many Mike K,s
I cant keep them straight. I apologize
My point is that these anti industry people are coming after us in a very aggressive and under handed manor...... Yet nobody but me seems to care?
I was one of the loudest voices before Y2K on the idea that terrorists are coming and yet the government and society WERE more worried about their computers crashing then the jumbo jets. |
I was wrong about Y2K being the " when " just because wemade it this far does not mean its not coming around the corner.

Its that they are after us you all should be worried about.
Keep in mind that even if your personal coral farms take hold...
(IT SEEMS 9 out of 10 POSTERS ON THIS BOARD ARE CURRENTLY WORKING ON CORAL FARM PROJECTS)
if they ban wild fish collection, the hobby is dead and your and my coral farms will fail to invite the required new customer interest that only cheap wild fish can deliver.
So its your problem just as much as anyones....put down your tubes of super glue and take a stand! Dont be the biggest invertebrate in the room!. :wink:

just because everyone's out to get you is no reason to be paranoid

Glad to see I wasn't the only one with visions of a Grassy Knoll speech next :lol:

 

[clarionreef]

12,000 CLOWN TANGS????
ANYONE CATCH THAT?
16,000 ACHILLES AND 22,000 KOLES ...SURE... BUT THERE ARE NOT 12,000 CLOWN TANGS COMING OUT OF HAWAII.
Surely the good researchers know the difference between a clown and a naso.
The clown tang figure is false and it MAKES ONE WONDER WHAT ELSE IS
Steve

 

[Kalkbreath]

How bout in 1995? Thats when this particular data was from. I didnt realize until now that the date did not show up in the image.
No body is out to get me or the corals farms.
I dont even like fish, its not my thing or my business future. But I clearly understand the connection between wild fish collection and the industry staying afloat. Right now, the reeformers are busy building coral farms thinking the farms are the solution to industry reputation and future.
Sadly the market for farmed coral product is already over saturated.
Safe guarding the continued flow of wild fish seems to have currently taken a back seat. (Like Terrorists and Clinton years )
Few in this industry are willing to upset the current harmony to safe guard the future.
Just think how silly George W Bush would have looked if he had instituted three hour Airport passenger inspections and screening and racial profiling prior to 9/11!
It takes a pretty big boom for Americans to wake up and smell the coffee.
The London bombings were only a few months ago , yet Americans still poo poo the idea that OUR Subways are in grave danger!
The Anti fish Lobbyists are out there. They are planning and organizing.
You might think its no big deal and the industry can survive without wild stock.
Fish are what spawn the first interests in aquarium ownership.
Without cheap wild fish, it would be next to impossible to get beginning hobbyists to jump into a farmed coral reef tank (which cost twice as mch as a fish only tank.) The costumers are getting tighter wallets, the idea of forking over and extra thousand bucks for a full blown reef tank is going to turn a great percentage of the public towards a cheaper hobby.
Fish only tanks with farm raised clown fish and Gobi's can only go so far.
The industry without wild collection is a dead one.
House bill# *** is your wake up call, its not like your not being given any warning by the enemy.
(just like the first Trade Center bombings in 93 were a preview to things to come................) :wink:

 

[Kalkbreath]

double post

 

[dizzy]

I did notice the clown tang figure. I don't ever remember receiving any Hawaiian clown tangs. The article tries to make it sound like Hawaii is the wild, wild west of fish collecting. Then it closes the article with this little jewel: "I think if you talk to anyone, they would say that the nearshore waters are not in the condition they remember that they used to be," said Peter Young, chairman of the state Department of Land and Natural Resources" :roll: I guess the reader is supposed to assume fish collectors are to be blamed for all the damage. This looks like another of the spoon fed agenda pieces that masquerade as a news story.
Mitch

 

[mkirda]

Then it closes the article with this little jewel: "I think if you talk to anyone, they would say that the nearshore waters are not in the condition they remember that they used to be," said Peter Young, chairman of the state Department of Land and Natural Resources" :roll:

And yet, if you look at the effect of the MPA that was instituted? What happens, Mitch?

When you get cranks in the industry who argue against sane, rational policy, and we see time and time again that the policy actually works, what conclusions are we (and the general public) to draw here?

Understand this piece for what it is - a followup to the earlier MPA implementation. If you declare areas off-limits, then the total fish counts go up across the board, inside the MPA and out, does it not look like the policy is working? And how exactly is creation of an MPA 'anti-fish' when the effect is to raise the number of fish for all reef-users to enjoy? Being a reef-keeping conservationist-leaning scubadiver, I see both sides of the issue here. The piece is too anti-collector, yes. But again, as I've said repeatedly, the industry doesn't exactly have a stellar reputation. It will take a long time to shake that off, and the collectors will need to help lead the way. Arguing for MPA creation instead of against, and getting their voices heard (and quotes published!)

There, that's my pro-hobby, pro-fish collector, pro-industry, pro-conservation thoughts on the article.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[mkirda]

12,000 CLOWN TANGS????
ANYONE CATCH THAT?
16,000 ACHILLES AND 22,000 KOLES ...SURE... BUT THERE ARE NOT 12,000 CLOWN TANGS COMING OUT OF HAWAII.
Surely the good researchers know the difference between a clown and a naso.
The clown tang figure is false and it MAKES ONE WONDER WHAT ELSE IS
Steve

Hi, Steve.

I doubt it was outright false. Since we don't know where it came from, nor what it was supposed to illustrate exactly, we are left to speculate. Someone probably took one month's catch data and extrapolated it to a year, and figured it was average. (You know it as Kalk-math :wink This illustrates why the raw data, gathered over time, is so important. I doubt that, when you look at this data, the average shows this figure...

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Anonymous]

Then it closes the article with this little jewel: "I think if you talk to anyone, they would say that the nearshore waters are not in the condition they remember that they used to be," said Peter Young, chairman of the state Department of Land and Natural Resources" :roll:

And yet, if you look at the effect of the MPA that was instituted? What happens, Mitch?

When you get cranks in the industry who argue against sane, rational policy, and we see time and time again that the policy actually works, what conclusions are we (and the general public) to draw here?

Understand this piece for what it is - a followup to the earlier MPA implementation. If you declare areas off-limits, then the total fish counts go up across the board, inside the MPA and out, does it not look like the policy is working? And how exactly is creation of an MPA 'anti-fish' when the effect is to raise the number of fish for all reef-users to enjoy? Being a reef-keeping conservationist-leaning scubadiver, I see both sides of the issue here. The piece is too anti-collector, yes. But again, as I've said repeatedly, the industry doesn't exactly have a stellar reputation. It will take a long time to shake that off, and the collectors will need to help lead the way. Arguing for MPA creation instead of against, and getting their voices heard (and quotes published!)

There, that's my pro-hobby, pro-fish collector, pro-industry, pro-conservation thoughts on the article.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Mike I beg to differ.

According to the article, The state of Hawaii has policys in place already to regulate and MONITOR the MO colloction and that policy HASN'T been inforced, by anyone. If they can't inforce what's already there, how the heck are they going to inforce something stronger?


Altho MPA may well help the reefs in the long run, I think we'll see a lot more of the "Clarion Gate" syndrome happening.

 

[dizzy]

How about this one Mike: "The situation doesn't sit well with a number of marine biologists, who worry that removing plant-eating fish from near-shore reefs already threatened by urban runoff could lead to an overgrowth of algae."

Instead of trying to find ways to stop/reduce the urban runoff, they seem to suggest that tangs can simply eat the problem away. :roll: It seems a bit like sweeping the dirt under the carpet. You build these large polluting cites at the edge of the water and then blame the net collectors for destroying the marine life. I agree the MPAs are a great idea. I hope they put in as many as needed. Despite whatever the intent of article really was, it simply comes off as another blame the marine ornamental industry for most of the problems type of article. It wouldn't be too surprising to learn the article was "leaked" by Ed Case's office.

 

[mkirda]

How about this one Mike: "The situation doesn't sit well with a number of marine biologists, who worry that removing plant-eating fish from near-shore reefs already threatened by urban runoff could lead to an overgrowth of algae."

{snip} I agree the MPAs are a great idea. I hope they put in as many as needed. Despite whatever the intent of article really was, it simply comes off as another blame the marine ornamental industry for most of the problems type of article. {snip}

That's my point here, Mitch!

Yes, marine scientists worry. This is why the industry as a whole needs to speak in terms that they understand. You *WANT* MPAs! You *WANT* fish counts to increase! You *WANT* to see reefs actively managed so that you can continue to catch fish, yet see the numbers of fish continue to increase. It isn't a win-lose situation. If you can get the bulk of the marine scientists to understand that the industry desires are in line with their desires - TO SEE THE REEFS QUANTITATIVELY IMPROVE - you will see their attitudes change somewhat.

Let me relate a story here. Back in 2000, I attended the Coral Reef Congress in Bali. I met any number of marine scientists whose attitude towards the hobby went from benign to outright hostility. As a hobbyist who is somewhat educated in Marine Ecology, I was able to speak to them in their own language as I understood their papers, their work. Their attitudes changed somewhat when they realized that here was a mere hobbyist who spoke their language, understood their work on their terms, and who was able to apply it for their hobby. Faced with this, the scientists I met who were initially outright hostile became somewhat more receptive to the idea that the hobby itself could be a more positive thing then they had earlier believed. I was not the idiot hobbyist that they had envisioned.

The point is, rather than showering invective onto the marine scientists, I think that the industry as a whole would be far better served by speaking with one voice trying to assuage their concerns, their worries. There must be some way to work with them. But it is up to the industry to make the first steps, to hold out the olive branch, and to figure out how to do that.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[dizzy]

Mike this is the part I don't understand:

While aquarium fishermen have been required since the 1970s to submit monthly catch reports, many don't.

Forty-seven percent of the reports required of collectors working in the islands' biggest collections area, along the west coast of the Big Island, went unfilled between January 1998 and July 2003, according to a 2004 state Department of Land and Natural Resources report.

Enforcement of the reporting requirement, however, is likely to be tightened, said Bill Walsh, an aquatic biologist with the Department of Land and Natural Resources.

Why don't they just try enforcing the laws they already have. Why are they waiting so long? This seems like something that Hawaii should be able to handle on their own. Instead of doing that, it seems like Ed Case want to create new legislation, that gets Uncle Sam involved.

 

[mkirda]

Why don't they just try enforcing the laws they already have. Why are they waiting so long? This seems like something that Hawaii should be able to handle on their own.

Sure, if the lawmakers actually funded the bill. How many times have we seen this happen before? I.E. No child left behind? Put on a bunch of requirements, but nothing to fund them? Or no money to fund enforcement?

Without examining the actual bill, there is no way to know.

Mike

 

[mopecula]

The bottom line is within our lifetimes the reefs as we now them will be gone and we have ourselves (humanity) to blame if we don't change our ways.

 

[mopecula]

The bottom line is within our lifetimes the reefs as we now them will be gone and we have ourselves (humanity) to blame if we don't change our ways.

 

[Anonymous]

How bout in 1995? Thats when this particular data was from. I didnt realize until now that the date did not show up in the image.
No body is out to get me or the corals farms.
I dont even like fish, its not my thing or my business future. But I clearly understand the connection between wild fish collection and the industry staying afloat. Right now, the reeformers are busy building coral farms thinking the farms are the solution to industry reputation and future.
Sadly the market for farmed coral product is already over saturated.
Safe guarding the continued flow of wild fish seems to have currently taken a back seat. (Like Terrorists and Clinton years )
Few in this industry are willing to upset the current harmony to safe guard the future.
Just think how silly George W Bush would have looked if he had instituted three hour Airport passenger inspections and screening and racial profiling prior to 9/11!
It takes a pretty big boom for Americans to wake up and smell the coffee.
The London bombings were only a few months ago , yet Americans still poo poo the idea that OUR Subways are in grave danger!
The Anti fish Lobbyists are out there. They are planning and organizing.
You might think its no big deal and the industry can survive without wild stock.
Fish are what spawn the first interests in aquarium ownership.
Without cheap wild fish, it would be next to impossible to get beginning hobbyists to jump into a farmed coral reef tank (which cost twice as mch as a fish only tank.) The costumers are getting tighter wallets, the idea of forking over and extra thousand bucks for a full blown reef tank is going to turn a great percentage of the public towards a cheaper hobby.
Fish only tanks with farm raised clown fish and Gobi's can only go so far.
The industry without wild collection is a dead one.
House bill# *** is your wake up call, its not like your not being given any warning by the enemy.
(just like the first Trade Center bombings in 93 were a preview to things to come................) :wink:

where on earth do you get that bs from?

the propagated coral industry is just in its infancy, and is far from being even remotely met, let alone saturated

 

[Anonymous]

The bottom line is within our lifetimes the reefs as we now them will be gone and we have ourselves (humanity) to blame if we don't change our ways.

i doubt they'll be gone, but they will most definitely be different-they already ARE different

 

[mopecula]

The bottom line is within our lifetimes the reefs as we now them will be gone and we have ourselves (humanity) to blame if we don't change our ways.

i doubt they'll be gone, but they will most definitely be different-they already ARE different

In Brazil the reefs are now starting to die due to cutting the rain forest down. Why? cause by removing the trees it is disrupting the Eco system. I can not explain it well but one example, you get run off of dirt into the sea which covers the sunlight to the corals causing massive bleaching events. And these changes are on land what about the collectors breaking corals just to get the fish and in the Philippines the reef is just about dead from using so much cyanide to catch fish not to mention the divers who die young too because of it. Humans take and take from mother nature and we never give back. we are our worst enemies!!
Take care all

 

[Anonymous]

Enforcement is always the sticking point with legislation.

My current opinion is that the situation involving collection for our hobby will only change with private interests leading the way.

 

[Kalkbreath]

where on earth do you get that bs from?

the propagated coral industry is just in its infancy, and is far from being even remotely met, let alone saturated

It might be in its infancy , but the current market has dried up . Bali and Java are overflowing with product. The market is already over saturated. The farmers are begging for more orders so they can make airline minimums out of Indo. Having to rechop over grown product that became too top heavy... Tonga , Vanuatu , Surabaya..........there is no shortage. Its a glut.

 

[Anonymous]

where on earth do you get that bs from?

the propagated coral industry is just in its infancy, and is far from being even remotely met, let alone saturated

It might be in its infancy , but the current market has dried up . Bali and Java are overflowing with product. The market is already over saturated. The farmers are begging for more orders so they can make airline minimums out of Indo. Having to rechop over grown product that became too top heavy... Tonga , Vanuatu , Surabaya..........there is no shortage. Its a glut.

maybe in the metro areas of the world, but out here in the boonies, it's dog eat dog trying to get farmed corals. Damned near impossible to get a frag, everything is full grown (not really, but to big for the local avg. hobbiest tank). Frags, anything less than 3-4" are non-existant and everything is wild harvest/caught.