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mkirda

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Kalkbreath":3hmdehxp said:
Again Mike, its the author who needs to publish complete works.

Well, for the upteenth time then Kalk:

THE CNN AUTHOR IS NOT AMONG THE PEOPLE HERE ON RDO!

Complaining here on RDO about his work doesn't educate you, his readers, or anyone else here.

You just end up sounding like a whiny little kid.

Contact the author, or get over it!
 

mkirda

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PeterIMA":at9izuuq said:
Monitoring Aquarium Fish Collection <http://www.hawaii.edu/ssri/hcri/images/fishing_pressure-01a.gif>
West Hawai`i Aquarium Project (1999-2002)

Dr. Brian Tissot, Principal Investigator
Dr. Bill Walsh, Investigator
Dr. Leon Hallacher, Investigator

You shouldn't spoon-feed Kalk, Peter.

He's a big boy. He can find the information if he wants to.
He just doesn't want to.

I mean, look at his responses! You show the man hard data which demonstrates that the number of fish overall have increased, and that the increase was highest within the established MPAs, and what does he do? Point out that one of the MPAs didn't increase in fish, then thrash around like this means SOMETHING IMPORTANT, then post one of his infamous fatally flawed initial assumption "Kalkulations".

Why not just give him Tissot's phone number and let them handle this off-line?

Regards.
Mike Kirda
 

dizzy

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mkirda said:
THE CNN AUTHOR IS NOT AMONG THE PEOPLE HERE ON RDO!

Mike how can you be so sure? I've looked and looked at the CNN article and I still can't determine who wrote it. So just who is the reporter?
Mitch
 

Kalkbreath

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Tissot said there are 15 fish per 100m square throughout the region. Even during the lowest fish counts n 2001 through 2004.
Thats 45 million fish. Wake up I burned the study using its own data .
How many fish are swimming off the Kona coast boys?
What other silly notions can we gather from the data?
I also noticed that it wasnt until fish MO collectors collected more fish that the overall fish stocks went up.
George bush being re-elected may have also increased the fish count this year. because it wasnt until his second term that the fish levels spiked.

If you cant even comprehend that its impossible for 150, 000 fish being removed from a standing stock of 45 million to have any effect........then the Kool Aid has taken its toll.
 

mkirda

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dizzy":xzuo1jpy said:
Mike how can you be so sure? I've looked and looked at the CNN article and I still can't determine who wrote it. So just who is the reporter?
Mitch

Kalk should be able to tell us.
Afterall, he *did* bring his concerns to the attention of the author and the media company that supplied the article...

Right, Kalk?
 

Kalkbreath

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I dont blame the author........I blame the people conducting the one sided studies and taking advantage of the public and talking heads whom have little clue about the topics of which they speak or write.
Do we really believe the pretty people speaking on camera at CNN have any idea about what their reading on the prompter?
They wer never told that the reason Valerie Plumes name was ousted was that she and her husband planned the trip to Nigeria themselves or that She was the reason he was sent and she sent him never intending on finding anything relating to WMD. Or that she had been ousted five years earlier by herself? Its all coming out now, but the people at CNN who wrote the first reports knew that the CNN objective was not to inform the people but to achieve a certain staining of the opposition..

This author in the Fish trade story had little alternative viewpoints to examine..........Can you point to any......... other then me?
Get Tissot on here and let him explain how many yellow tangs are swimming off the Kona coast! :wink:
 

mkirda

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Kalkbreath":faed4o92 said:
Get Tissot on here and let him explain how many yellow tangs are swimming off the Kona coast! :wink:

Um, no.

As I have explained to RDO earlier, this is not a good idea. In fact, it is a singularly bad idea.

There are a large number of marine scientists who would like nothing more than to see this industry shut down entirely.

I can think of no worse ambassador than Kalkbreath.

All it would take is for a single influential marine scientist with anti-hobby leanings to get Kalkbreath into a debate on something like the effectiveness of MPAs, or the standing stocks of Hawaiian yellow tangs. One debate with Kalk as the face of this industry in order to galvanize opinion. You have three groups, the largest is anti-hobby, a sizable percentage are neither for nor against, and much smaller percentage is pro-hobby. You galvanize the anti-hobby group, this hobby will be shut down. The US Coral Reef Task Force will not be able to stop things.

This is what I don't understand about this industry. Kalk represents the very worst here, yet I don't think that the industry as a whole understands the threat that he represents. You have someone here who publicly flaunts his blatant lack of knowledge in math, statistics, ecology, chemistry, scientific method and basic science. There is essentially no one on this board that does anything to remotely try to discourage this very public behavior. Kalkbreath could very easily turn into the poster boy for this industry, setting in motion the forces that will close it down.

I, for one, do not want to see that happen.

Regards.
Mike Kirda
 
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mkirda":l4o817il said:
There is essentially no one on this board that does anything to remotely try to discourage this very public behavior.

This is untrue. Many posters, like yourself, discourage his behavior, and I have had many pm's with him.
 

Kalkbreath

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Its time to stop the silly games, there are far too many yellow tangs swimming around the Hawaiian waters (even by the researchers accounts) to have the few fish we collect as an industry have any effect. fifteen fish every 100msquare is a lot of yellow tangs along a 150 mile coast. The second most commonly collected fish Kole tangs are collected at ten times less! Less then one fish per day per mile of coastline.
There are so many of the most common collected fish species that it take collectors one forth of the time it use to take to collect the same number of fish!
CPUE data, which collectors submit to DAR, are somewhat surprising. For the
beginning of the 1980s, van Poolen and Obara (1984) found a CPUE of 13 animals per hour. In 1991, CPUE was 19 animals per hour, and until 1999 it increased to 62 animals per hour (see Figure 7.5). Collectors appear to have become more professional since 1984 (including use of advanced boats, overnight trips, life wells that allow storing of fish, use of scooters and nitrox diving by some collectors), which may account for part of the increase in CPUE. DAR - data also suggest that collections of rare, harder to catch, but more valuable species have decreased in favor of easier to catch species, especially Yellow Tang (own analysis). Nonetheless, a more than quadrupling of CPUE in less than 20 years would be enormous considering that no revolution in collection techniques has taken place.
The idea that MO collectors are killing coral is silly as well.
The waters around the Kona coast have very little live coral .
The majority of the coral reef area is located in the Northwest Hawaiian Islands (8,521 km2). Although the coral reef area in the Main Hawaiian Islands is smaller (2,536 km2), its economic importance outweighs that of the Northwest Hawaiian Islands. For example, the annual number of visitors on the Main Islands is 11 million while the Northwest Island receive only 5000 visitors per year. Given this significant contrast in characteristics and the large difference in data availability, the present study will confine itself to the Main Hawaiian Islands.

There are approximately 60 named species of stony corals in the Hawaiian Archipelago (Maragos et al. in prep.) with an endemism of around 25%. Live coral cover in the Main Hawai`ian islands is around 18% on average for all sites surveyed under the Hawai`i Coral Reef Assessment and Monitoring Program (CRAMP). In addition, there are thought to be over 400 species of marine algae. There are 557 species of reef and shore fishes in Hawai`i, 100 species of sponges, 1071 species of mollusks, 884 species of crustaceans and 278 species of echinoderms (all data from Gulko et al. (2000); for references, see therein).

There is even less coral growing in the waters of the island Maui were practically no aquarium fish are collected.
Kihei’s algae: Algae blooms have been a recurring problem on reef flats off the southern and western coasts of Maui for many years. This has caused significant, but localized, disturbance to the beach front, both in terms of its unattractive appearance and unpleasant odor. Potential contributing factors include wastewater discharge, leaching of injection wells, storm water and agricultural runoff, and golf course runoff. This leads to nutrient enrichment of the shallow reef area, which can cause phytoplankton blooms. These blooms limit the amount of sunlight reaching stony corals, thereby affecting their health. The major algal blooms occur in the North Kihei area, which has an algae cover of over 50 percent. Algae cover in South Kihei, which has not had such problems, is estimated at around 5 percent. The North Kihei algae problem is both a costly nuisance and a direct biological threat to local coral resources.
Hanauma Bay is the remnant of the inside of a large volcano, whose crater partly
collapsed into the sea. The Bay is located southeast of Waikiki on O`ahu and is one of the most heavily used marine reserves in the world. The Hanauma Bay Marine Life Conservation District (MLCD), established in 1976, was the first MLCD in Hawai`i. Reef monitoring by CRAMP showed an average coral cover of 25.8 percent at 3-meter depth and 27.0 percent at 10 meter depth. Macro-algae coverage was very low, at around 2 percent, while percentages of crustose coralline algae and turf algae were high. Fish were abundant, with densities of 417 fish per 125 m2 at 3 m and 630 fish per 125 m2 at 10 m.

The Areas with good coral growth are being trmpled to death by the tourists.
In the late 1980s, Hanauma Bay was almost being ‘visited to death’ with 13,000 visitors a day at peak times. These crowds stirred up sediment, disturbed and trampled the coral and algae, dropped trash, fed the fish and left a slick of suntan lotion on the bay's surface.
There are so many tangs swimming off Kona Coast that the government banned the hand feeding of fish because this practice had allowed the tang populations to become too large.
measure the "before" and "after”: effects as part of his study. Aquatic Biologist Alton
Miyasaka of the DLNR expects that the following changes will occur when feeding is
curtailed:

* Fish populations will shift away from dull nenue (rudder fish) and pualu (surgeonfish)that thrive on artificial food supply and currently dominate the inshore reef.
* The nenue and pualu will be replaced by more colorful weke (goatfishes),
parrotfishes, butterfly fishes and damselfishes.
* There may be a decline in numbers of fishes, but reduction in larger fishes may be made up by increases in number of smaller fishes.
* Because the change will be gradual, no mass die-offs of any kind are expected.

The numbers of eels, which feed on other fish, may also gradually decline.

What makes all this really silly is that on one hand you have the public blaming the collectors for the non aquarium fish disappearing and on the other side you have the state researchers blaming too many tangs as to why the other fish cant be found!
Allowing this continued nonsense is actually killing the reefs of Hawaii. Using aquarium industry as a scape goat simply keeps the real problems from being addressed.
You all claim to care about the reefs, but it sure seems other wise.
All this information is available to anyone interested in whats really happening in Hawaii. Seems that most anti pet fish experts either know very little about their self aggrandized expertise........or they know full well what the facts are and are feeding us a load.
 

Kalkbreath

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Righty":186b73ov said:
mkirda":186b73ov said:
There is essentially no one on this board that does anything to remotely try to discourage this very public behavior.

This is untrue. Many posters, like yourself, discourage his behavior, and I have had many pm's with him.
Why do we want to run from the truth?
I provide much more data to back up my points then any other posters.
look back at this thread, where has anyone other then I used actual numbers or secondary studies to back up their veiw points?
 

clarionreef

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....
Of ALL the causes to take up, the defense of the "rabbit of Hawaii..." ie. the Yellow Tang is the least needed.
The Hawaiian Fish and Game and a myriad of other agencies and groups already monitor this tropical fishery more then any other. They are there...and we are not.
THE VOLUMES THAT KEEP BEING SHIPPED KEEP THE PRICES DOWN LOW...and the fish is frankly a pain in the neck to importers.
You have to have it....make no money on it...and have to spend a lot of labor to move this 'lost leader'.
I'd wouldn't miss em but relize that in one single year without collecting, their numbers would really explode.
This is because they are so tied to algal surface area and there is so very much of that in Hawaii. Truth is, they probably benefit more from reef destruction then any other aquarium fish....as they are simply algae eaters.
If someone needs a poster fish for a knee-jerk Save Hawaiian Fish cause, this is a poor choice.
There are ignored species that actually need better management but don't get it as the yellow tang is the star and gets all the attention.
Its also easy to observe by observers as they are doing pretty well despite being collecting in large numbers.
Taking out the predators in Hawaii by all fishing sectors has no doubt tweaked the eco-system and given them an easier life then they otherwise would have.
On top of it all, the Northern islands that are not collected on seem tailor made to sweep larvae down to the main islands refilling vacated niches routinely. Woe unto the little drifter who misses Kona as he and his billions of cohorts never make it to Mexico.
Steve
 
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Kalkbreath":1seeprbn said:
Righty":1seeprbn said:
mkirda":1seeprbn said:
There is essentially no one on this board that does anything to remotely try to discourage this very public behavior.

This is untrue. Many posters, like yourself, discourage his behavior, and I have had many pm's with him.
Why do we want to run from the truth?
I provide much more data to back up my points then any other posters.
look back at this thread, where has anyone other then I used actual numbers or secondary studies to back up their veiw points?

I was referring to the way you post. However, most in this forum don't seem to understand that, and I find that somewhat depressing.
 
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I have a quesion, after reading Kalk's post. In the SPECIFIC instance of Hawaii, what is the main cause for reef degradation? OF or tourism related activities?
 

Kalkbreath

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Actually there isnt much coral reef degradation problems in Hawaii. The few coral reefs are all in protected marine parks or preserves mostly in the northern islands. The term "reef degradation" without the word coral ....... commonly used is actually lava rock becoming covered with algae not live coral.A reef doent have to be formed out of live coral to be termed a "reef". This is over growth of algae is common in area like Maui where no MO fishing takes place but not in the pet fish collection zones(much to the bane of anti trade people) :wink:
 
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mkirda":12f274ir said:
Kalkbreath":12f274ir said:
I still have yet to sea any data to support the authors fears. {snip}

Have you contacted the author(s) yet?

I've given you the name of the gentleman whose work so much of this is based on. You got a brain, I've pointed out that Google brings up his contact info... What more do you want?

It seems like it is a peculiarly American trait to prattle on incessantly about that which you are least informed...

There are two subjects you need to bone up on, Kalk. One is the interconnectedness of the food web. This is incredibly important, and it is also important to understand that removal of even one of the species can have unanticipated effects, just as additions of a single species can have devasting effects overall. For some things, there are pretty good understandings of what goes on... I.E. Removal of sharks from the reef have some pretty dramatic effects on the reef overall. Contrary to what you might think, the evidence shows that removal of this top-level predator actually lowers the overall reef carrying capacity, leading to LOWER fish counts overall. The reef ecosystem overall is harmed. There are several studies that point this out, and I've pointed out at least one of these to you in the past. Removal of the next level of predators, grouper and the like by fishing pressures have similar cascading effects down the trophic ladder. How the reef reacts to these are less well understood because it is nearly impossible to find reefs anymore where studies could be done.

Second would be just general Coral Reef Ecology- That much is clear from several of your recent postings. Try this book: Sorokin, Yuri. Coral Reef Ecology. Berlin; New York, NY: Springer, 1993. IZ&G QH541.5 .C7 S66 1993, or this one: Birkeland, Charles. Life and Death of Coral Reefs. New York, NY: Chapman & Hall, 1997. Main QH541.5 .C7 L54 1997.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

heh rest assured it's not peculiar to americans ;)
 

clarionreef

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In the article;
The situation doesn't sit well with a number of marine biologists, who worry that removing plant-eating fish from near-shore reefs already threatened by urban runoff could lead to an overgrowth of algae.
:roll:
"LAY OFF THE YELLOW TANGS TO KEEP ALGAE GROWTH DOWN?"
Is that the new cause of the week?
Or it that why there is such good recruitment of yellow tangs?
We just got in 600 and 1/3 of them were 2 inches long. These fish breed, grow faster then a watermelon to market size and recover like nothing else.
See FISHBASE.ORGs readout;
Importance: aquarium: commercial
Resilience: High, minimum population doubling time less than 15 months(Preliminary K or Fecundity.)
This is a big part of why the price stays so low.
Doubles it population in 15 months! How wonderful! And to grow to a small only 4-5 months...a medium 6-8 months.
All it takes then is habitat. Suitable habitat.

Mike writes;
"Removal of sharks from the reef have some pretty dramatic effects on the reef overall. Contrary to what you might think, the evidence shows that removal of this top-level predator actually lowers the overall reef carrying capacity, leading to LOWER fish counts overall. The reef ecosystem overall is harmed. There are several studies that point this out, and I've pointed out at least one of these to you in the past. Removal of the next level of predators, grouper and the like by fishing pressures have similar cascading effects down the trophic ladder."

Exactly.
1. Less predators to eat the herbivores and...
2. lots of urban run-off to grow algae.

Would a failure to address these conditions lead one once again to a more simplistic remedy?
We suffer the same syndrome in Mexico where the food fish trade is out of bounds for discussion and the industrial/urban/tourist trade effects on the coastline non remediable by the fishery people. So, it must therefore fall on the aquarium trade as the culprit....as they are within fisheries realm.
This is bad science...simplistic, lazy and incomplete science .
It is also intellectualy dishonest to pick on the sector least alble to fight back and whose stakeholders are largely ' just' fisherman..
Whats next? A campaign to save the rabbits in Australia?

If the tropical fish liscence procedures and the rules are lax in Hawaii, let the focus be then on implementing them better.
Steve
PS There are bigger fish to fry people...like nearly every other fish in the trade.
 

mkirda

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Kalkbreath":2sco82sl said:
Actually there isnt much coral reef degradation problems in Hawaii.

Oh my freakin lord...

Kalk, are you really that far out of your freaking mind as to believe this crap that you spout? Or is it just to tweak people?

To answer the post, the single largest source of reef degradation is the overdevelopment of the coastline of Hawaii, plain, pure and simple. Documentation of this goes back to pre-WWII. And Steve is right, that ain't gone change. It has only gotten worse over the years... What is left of the reefs along any populated/developed coastline is frankly in dismal shape.

Steve is also right in that yellow tangs are a singularly poor indicator species. Like using dandelions as an indicator...

Regards.
Mike Kirda
 

mkirda

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cortez marine":s4mda1jg said:
1. Less predators to eat the herbivores and...
2. lots of urban run-off to grow algae.

Would a failure to address these conditions lead one once again to a more simplistic remedy?

This is also rather simplistic in that it doesn't always end up this way. Take a look at the Caribbean basin, for example.

Fishing pressures removed major herbivores. Led to an explosion in the number of urchins, which expanded to fill the niche.

When the bacterial infection spread across the basin, wiping out 98% of the urchins in the entire basin over a six month period back in the early 80's, what filled the niche?

The answer: Nothing.

The past twenty years, nothing has filled the void. The ecosystem is completely out of kilter, coral diseases abound, coral cover reduced dramatically, with Acropora essentially extinct of 90% of the basin now.

The ecosystem was very much out of whack by the early 70's. We've pushed it so hard, it is very unlikely to ever recover, period.

Point being, we can't necessarily be sure of the effects of the removal of a species from the food web. Sometimes other species fill the void. Sometimes they don't. And sometimes their removal can have catastrophic effects. An entire generation of marine scientists came up believing that large numbers of urchins were the norm...

Regards.
Mike Kirda
 

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