CNN Marine Ornamental Fish Story from Hawaii

[clarionreef]

Hawaiian reefs not degraded??
Kalk! :roll: Now why did you go and say that?
One word....
De-caf...
Steve
PS.
Now if you ment the far North-western islands...thats different.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Based on what i read, it seems the coral coverage has remained the same on the big island for the past twenty years.(18%) Its hard to find accounts of coral coverage before that. Lots of old timers stating that the reefs are just not as "Pretty" as they were but its hard to translate such opinions.
Missing fish seems to be the battle cry not dying corals.

 

[MandarinFish]

Whats next? A campaign to save the rabbits in Australia?

Steve- you are informed about the many species in the trade threatened by innumerable bad practices.

I realize you see many, many zebrasoma flavescens in wholesaling.

Everyone here probably realizes they have drastically higher survival rates than acanthurus leucosternon.

But the Oryctolagus cuniculus is a non-native, invasive species in Australia.

Zebrasoma flavescens is an indigenous animal to Hawaiian waters, and is more limited in it's range than many other species. They are not collected from the Marshalls or Wake Island much, I imagine.

As large as their numbers may seem, they are still native species. Without people catching and shipping hundreds of thousands of them for every reef shop to every Pet Depot Warehouse box-store, imagine what their populations might be like.

They are not a weed, Steve. The U of HI researchers I know have noted their decline to me in conversation, as well as other fish. They are not the only fish population that is virtually non-existent in open catch zones, though.

My point is that the two zones lie in dire, stark contrast from one another when side-by-side areas show there is nothing left when fishing is allowed.

Pick a different fish with population threats if you'd like... the flame angel is another native. My points are about catching generally.

To the poster (phd) who asked about data - I will see what I can get. Not sure what has already been published by the researchers I know.

But they *live* in the waters off the Big Island, and when they tell me the work they do all day, every day, of monitoring fish populations in open and closed catch zones shows that overfishing is rampant and easily visible in one area, lying in stark contrast to the rich, populous nearby protected waters, I believe them.

More than Kalk, who seems to be an industry apologist I guess. Not that Kalk doesn't make good points about certain specifics. I'm just relaying anecdotal information from people who know far, far more about Big Island fish populations and zones than anyone on this board.

Unless they are also FT Kona fish population researchers.

I'll try to get stats. Yes Steve, you're right about other fish being in greater danger, but this fish was just one of the examples I gave. It's easier for people to get behind locally popular, large, visually attractive species than it is to get behind a rare slug. Bald eagles are sexier and other birds need protection too, but the bald eagle can be used to make points about bird populations. Just because they recover doesn't mean they are weeds.

 

[PeterIMA]

Please note that I posted a report by Tissot et al. (2003) that provides data to support what the previous poster refers to (statistical comparisons of abundances monitored inside and outside MPAs on the Big Island of Hawaii). The Yellow Tang and the Potters Angel had significantly different densities inside and outside the MPAs. Other species in aggregate were also significantly different. The data is posted in a PDF file that can be downloaded.

Peter Rubec

 

[Kalkbreath]

Do we really expect every mile of coastline to hold the same number of fish ? Where else in the world are fish levels the same regardless of the changing habitat along a 150 mile coastline? The state park waters and sanctuary waters have ten times more live coral in those reefs then the open municipal waters! That means the protected waters have much better water conditions and more healthy reefs the compared to the collection waters. It seems to reason that where there is ten times more live corals there would be ten times more fish.
But even with double the collection pressures on the now ever shrinking open waters , the fish populations of target fish is only slightly lower. It s always been slightly lower fish counts in the crappie areas !
We keep comparing nice sanctuary reefs to bare open water areas. Thats silly. I can compare Penkamp park to the public beaches of Miami and illustrate how protected waters hold more fish. Lets place the dead coral less open waters under sanctuary protection and let the fishermen collect from the best and largest reef areas.........then lets compare standing fish levels. bech areas hold less fish, in Florida or Hawaii
The only real comparison is subtracting 150,000 fish from the 45 million standing stock levels of yellow tangs living along this 150 mile island.
Then its easy to sea how silly all of this yellow tang business is.

 

[mkirda]

They are not a weed, Steve. {snip} Just because they recover doesn't mean they are weeds.

Hi, Mandarinfish.

I think that you are taking Steve's admittedly provocative point too literally.

Yellow tangs can pump out some pretty major numbers of eggs. Given areas to recruit, they will settle, grow out and reach reproductive ages very quickly. Much more quickly than an awful lot of other species. Hence the comparison to a dandelion, or other "weeds". The difference being, of course, that these dandelions of the sea are actually desireable rather than noxious.

A lot of other species are much rarer, not as fecund, and have generally poorer recruitment rates, and take longer to reach reproductive age. These species are arguably more important.

Interestingly, yellow tangs are reported off the eastern coast of the Philippines too, although not in high numbers. They are generally not collected for the trade though.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[clarionreef]

I called my new kid a little monkey this morning....
but I didn't really mean he was a monkey.

The lack of better resource management in Hawaii has allowed a great fall of predator species and the resultant rise in the 'rabbits' ie. yellow tang to high levels. Levels of herbivores in disproportion to any sembalance of normalcy.
This is the primary point I was making.

Any researcher friends could also point out the very clear lack of snappers, basses as well.
The yellows have gone down from levels they think they should be in some areas? To be sure thats true...but that observation pales compared to the decline of dozens of other other species and indicator species as well.

Missing from the equation is the value of the trade off to humankind. The allowance of extraction of yellows may prevent far more degradation to another resource. People other then elite researchers need to eat and pay rent as well....But, its as you say;
It's easier for people to get behind locally popular, large, visually attractive species than it is to get behind a rare slug.

Exactly. Dumbing down science when convenient to enlist layman support and retreating to purer or esoteric science when it suits the occasion....is simply politics.
There is a trend among some researchers that holds that they know better and that conclusions without input from fisherman is more valid.
I myself have been witness to too much incompetent and bogus science from elites and snobs who hold fisherman in contempt and would hate to see that spread too much. What this cabal of researchers need for their own credibity is a good devils advocacy forum where they get challenged periodically to keep them grounded.
This prevents the "everyone off the reef except me" syndrome.
This trend is alarming because its mimicked and spreads to elites in the tropical countries where the issues are sharper and human welfare sits on a razors edge. Learning to disregard fisherfolk among marine bio-folk happy to escape from poverty leads to serious disconnects from their own countries needs.
The pollyanna "Look but dont touch" speech is hardly useful in confronting a hundred angry fisherman in a village meeting.
I know. I've been in these and the gulf and mistrust only widens.
Researching with fisherman is a very useful methodology that needs to increase.
If Hawaii can't deal with this stuff...who can be expected to?

Steve

 

[MandarinFish]

Lovely. I wrote up an extended response, my DSL service sux, and the message got erased.

Here's why I don't trust people in the food-fish industry to give scientific advice - http://scicom.ucsc.edu/SciNotes/0201/lo/seafood/

elite researchers

With all due respect, have you ever been a researcher for a university? They live far, far more meager lives on tighter budgets than the Hawaiian fish industry people I know.

Not talking about subsistence fishermen in Tonga here... keeping the discussion to Hawaii. I'm talking about people who dedicate their lives to researching and preserving fish populations for an ocean in decline.

But I agree with you that there needs to be money for locals in preserving their reefs. Gresham explained that to me RE: captive breeding VS how important ornamental fish are to deeply impoverished people eeking out a living with thier local resources, one way or another.

Sadly, there is more money in taking resources than protecting them. Just ask Exxon or Greenpeace.

The key is striking the balance of income and sustainability.

 

[clarionreef]

Sadly, there is more money in taking resources than protecting them. Just ask Exxon or Greenpeace

I couldn't agree more. Especially with your observation that even Greenpeace is a user and a consumer of nature as well.
Using nature to pass the years and base careers on without making it better is the new ticket now.
The mere mention of environmental attention gets one undeserved praise. If you're for it...its somehow parlayed into an assumtion of something concrete.
Its kinda like being for romance...yet not actually being in it. Everyones for it....nothing is so easy to imagine. But realizing it and being in it, now thats worth something!
Saying you're for the environment is a very, very small contibution.
Behaving, putting money where the mouth is, living the talk and walking the walk....now thats something worth noting.
Steve

 

[PeterIMA]

Steve, When your industry starts to put money into net-training and other alternatives like mariculture, your industry may have some basis for criticiziing the scientific community. The fish resources of Hawaii belong to the State of Hawaii and all of its citizens. If they decide that Yellow Tangs and Potters angelfish are being overexploited and decide to ban collection of the MAF, they have a right to do so, based on sound science. I don't understand your anti-science stance. Management of marine resources is needed. The MAF collectors are only one group that must accept better management in HI.

Peter Rubec

 

[clarionreef]

My industry?
You mean we are united? That we recognize common cause?
You mean as if it ever listened until the gun was pointed at its head...

My point was certainly not anti-science but about the gulf between scientific intention and reality....romanticizing and actualizing....theorizing and implementation....getting paid and getting it right.
[Psychologically speaking, its no doubt derived from being victimized and shaken down for cash by corrupt pseudo-scientific-bio-bureaucrats in Mexico for a few decades.... or perhaps the coral reef issues being victimized and shaken down by corrupt pseudo-scientific eco-bureucrats in S.E.Asia for decades.]
However, I relize that there are many species of empiracists and at all levels...and cultures in the scientific industry. Oh yes...an industry it is w/ all the good apples with the bad.
Hawaii has more resources proportionatly at its disposal to protect its marine resources then all the tropical countries of the world combined.
If they can't get it right....who can be expected to?

The industry is not volunteering to put something back you say?
You mean by that that the resource managers all over Hawaii are not doing their jobs?
You mean that w/ all the intellectual and financial firepower in the tourist trade, the govt and academia that volunteerism and good will from the industry is the missing ingredient to insure sustainability?

Do you really want to wait for and depend on the proverbial foxes to put something back into the coop?
I suggest that it is the lack of achievement in Hawaiian resource management and effectiveness among all of the above that seek out the trade as a whipping boy for its own failures.
Business people , like scientists tend to abscond with whatever they are allowed to. If not allowed to ...how can they?

Steve
PS. If you want the treasure protected....get better quality protection instead of blaming the thieves. The thieves will just get something like MAC to front for them.
And another thing.... I no more represent this industry then you represent money grubbing, grant grubbing eco-whores who make mockery of genuine neccessity.

 

[Anonymous]

Hold the phone!

Aren't there quotas on catch limits in HI? If so, who set them? Who recomended them, scientists? Aren't the MAF collectors folowing the law/regulations set on them? Do we need "net training" to be sponsorred in HI, the land of nets (for Peter)?

 

[clarionreef]

"Steve, When your industry starts to put money into net-training..."
[ you mean to match the hundreds of thousands put up by NGO donars in the name of the industry???]
The net caught collectors trained by us have already spread to many countries....courtesy of free enterprise. Tongan coral beauties will ...alas...become as cheap as Philippine ones as the divers there are now catching enough to supplant the Philippine supply!
Meanwhile , back at the MAC grant farm....the only thing being produced is more still more grant money to go with no netcaught fish supply.


" and other alternatives like mariculture"...
you mean besides the mariculture businesses already lowering prices thru competition? Acro frags are going to get too cheap soon. Maricultures not a virtue...its a business.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

"Steve, When your industry starts to put money into net-training..."
[ you mean to match the hundreds of thousands put up by NGO donars in the name of the industry???]
The net caught collectors trained by us have already spread to many countries....courtesy of free enterprise. Tongan coral beauties will ...alas...become as cheap as Philippine ones as the divers there are now catching enough to supplant the Philippine supply!
Meanwhile , back at the MAC grant farm....the only thing being produced is more still more grant money to go with no netcaught fish supply.


" and other alternatives like mariculture"...
you mean besides the mariculture businesses already lowering prices thru competition? Acro frags are going to get too cheap soon. Maricultures not a virtue...its a business.
Steve

Now now Steve, remember, Peter doesn't have any real ties to the MO industry, other then a few insiders that don't really deal with mariculture How could he know that there's farms popping up every second in new places. Oh wait, it's been posted here on RDO several times now :lol:

 

[PeterIMA]

Well, I asked for it, and I got MUD IN MY FACE.

At least RDO got a little livelier. Eh?

Peter

 

[Anonymous]

nah Peter, just a little egg

 

[MandarinFish]

I have requested copies of the published research on Hawaii fish populations.

Steve, I share some frustration of yours with NGO/NPO organizations, but you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I emailed Rainforest Action Network to have them send me info on locating reclaimed wood for my new display tank. They blew me off. I explained that I am so tree-friendly that I actually recycle every single sugar packet I've used, and have done so for many, many years.

Supporting sustainable business is very important, and there are net-caught wholesalers (or at least there were when you were running your shop... dunno about Cortez now, maybe you could explain), just as there are businesses that reclaim mahogany, teak, and other endangered tree woods from old buildings, etc.

A friend of mine used to see pallets made out of mahogany.

But the Nature Conservancy is crucial... they buy land and forceothers to simply stay off it.

I'll get back to you with the statistics on ornamental fish population decline. My friends with U-HI said that pretty much every species is depopulated in the open catch zones, certainly not just any one in particular.

 

[clarionreef]

"Saying you're for the environment is a very, very small contibution.
Behaving, putting money where the mouth is, living the talk and walking the walk....now thats something worth noting."

Netcaught fish on their own merit dont sell. Variety and cheapness move the masses....which move the machine. The machine ignores the will of the masses at their peril. Cheap, lowball marines appeal to the masses regardless of how their caught. Hardly anyones interested in that subject anyway as it doesn't sell.
This is not even debateable except by armchair, theretically inclined non combatants.
For every hobbyist who says he'll do the right thing there are 500 who will not even discuss it....

Steve

 

[PeterIMA]

Reply to Gresham,

As far as I know, there are no quotas on Hawaiian MAF. See one of the earlier postings on this thread.


Quote:
"With the notable exception of a five-year-old regulation project along the Big Island's Kona Coast, a $50 permit allows collectors across most of Hawaii to net as many of a species as they want, wherever they want and whenever they want. That sometimes means harvesting hundreds of thousands per year of a single species from a single bay."


I believe that regulations (like the Case Bill) are needed at the federal level and that more regulation is needed at the state level. Are there persons willing to participate in a debate on this subject at the next MO Conference?

"Are more regulations on the Marine Ornamental Fish Trade Needed? Pros and Cons."

Please provide your opinions.

Peter Rubec

 

[Anonymous]

No quotas? Wow, Mexico is light years ahead of the US on the regulation scheme then.