Conservation Thread

[sdcfish]

Naesco......

Promise not to tell anyone if I disclose what we feed the cleaner wrasses?

Ok...I trust you....so,

We feed live brine when they first arrive, but mix it later with flake food (shhhhh, don't tell anyone)

They can be very picky when they first arrive, and because of poor survivability rate and cheap selling price, we don't import many. Maybe 100 per month if that much.

Best regards,

Eric

P.S Take it easy on the sterotypes of the industry eh? Batting Zero? Ouch!

 

[clarionreef]

Eric writes;
"I guess I am just playing it down a bit because I have always been realistic on the timeline that I knew this would take. So for me...it's not such a shocker and I still feel that the progress is in line with my expectations."
Eric ...
That was a great line. You are a marketing wizard to be sure and MAC should've gotten you on line long ago when the tolerance and goodwill was greater.

"I still feel that the progress is in line with my expectations."
That was a beauty.

Actually, the truth is;
you regarded the players...
you knew their capability....
you sized em up...
you lowered your expectations....
you saw that they were outsiders just trying to figure this thing out from a lack of experience....
and you accepted that the progress they would make was in line with your slower, lower expectations.
Wow! What a severe criticism! But warranted I agree.
Steve

PS. So long as there is no crisis, no hurry and nothing worth fighting for....why not take it easy and get paid by the week regardless?
I now relize my mistake in thinking back in 1983 there were critical problems that needed attention before the Philippines doubled its population and tripled its pressure on its marine resources.
That doubling of population has now occured since simple net training was begun....and hardly continued. But hey...Manila wasn't built in a day.
Take a de-caf and relax everybody. It'll happen before the next doubling...right?

 

[naesco]

Naesco......

Promise not to tell anyone if I disclose what we feed the cleaner wrasses?

Ok...I trust you....so,

We feed live brine when they first arrive, but mix it later with flake food (shhhhh, don't tell anyone)

They can be very picky when they first arrive, and because of poor survivability rate and cheap selling price, we don't import many. Maybe 100 per month if that much.

Best regards,

Eric

P.S Take it easy on the sterotypes of the industry eh? Batting Zero? Ouch!

Thanks than nothing has changed.
Batting Zero, of course not.
I am very impressed by the progress that is being made and in particular your leadership as a major wholesaler. If there is a small reduction in the use of cyanide we have progress. If there is a small improvement in handling etc. we have progress. If breeding angels (that are difficult to acclimate in our tanks) are left to breed in the ocean we have progress.

I know you are busy and I am happy you take the time to answer all enquiries. Don't take comments personally from anyone in this forum.

And only we can say, eh! You guys say huh!

 

[dizzy]

Dizzy, I am interested in finding out why you have had such success with keeping cleaner wrasse when most ethical LFS don't buy them anymore because of their dismal success rate?They sometimes come as fill though.

Thank you Wayne

Maybe it's because I'm a better fish keeper than they are. :wink: I just took two quick snap shots for you. The pictures ain't great but you should be able to get the idea. One is in a 450 with my flame angel and pair of lemon peel angels. The other is in a 300 cylinder with my pair of Regal Angels and a pair of flame angels among others.

 

[Anonymous]

i always get a kick over wayne's 'will' 'won't' statements



so far wayne, you're batting zero for god knows how many


i'm genuinely curious as to what motivates you to make these definitive fortune telling like replies each and every time

What motivates me is the hope that I can continue the hobby that I love into old age.
Without solid progress by industry to change its ways, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that our hobby (your business) will be shut down or severely regulated. Right now industry is batting zero!

er- how so? it's neither shut down OR regulated-and we've all heard that song and dance routine before-it was the first tactical ploy used to scare folks to get on 'your' macbandwagon in the first place-and we all know how that one turned out. there's also plenty of captive bred and propagated stock to keep me, as a reef hobbyists, enjoying this hobby until the day i die-the same is there for you

btw, how can you still be a mac fan after everything you've posted here over the past 2-3 yrs? they've made you look quite the liar

so how would shutting down the collection of MO SW fish prevent you from enjoying the hobby? the hobby doesn't revolve round only wild caught organisms-pleanty of folks have full blown reef tanks with stock that never saw a ray of wild sunlight :idea:



no one can get even 100 retail stores to agree on anything,even when it's for their own economic benefit , due to classic 'crab mentality' (read: AMDA :twisted: ) and you seem to know what WILL or WON'T happen to the industry ?hel, even the industry can't answer that one, but you KNOW??!! :roll:

the wishful thinker who keeps stating wishes as 'future facts' only does himself a disservice by making himself look unbelievably foolish, imo (memories of chicken little abound here, heh)


which of your definitive statements (need i go dig them up? ) made in the past has proved to even remotely come to fruition ? you've made statements about which species will be banned-you committted to a CDT timeline in mac's name, etc etc


it's getting to be quite laughable, especially when NOT ONCE do you ever offer an attempt at a semi reasonable possible answer, for all of your whining and crying and moaning and berating

for one who claims to 'love the hobby' you sure seem to only offer negative suggestions like shutting it down, and scolding people on husbandry issues you're mostly ignorant on as well (yelling and insulting hobbyists on a public reef board because of the self appointed title of 'tang police' has nothing at all to do with 'enjoying the hobby'


let me clue you in on a little secret.....

honorable motives aside, the coral reefs dying from pollution/disease stressors/global warming etc are going to do in all of the reefs on this planet looooong before any beaurocratic gov'tal or ngo will have anything to say about controlling this industrys livestock source-at present rates, it's very possible that there will be no more reefs, period, in 100 years, mebbe less - but at least we won't be selling any cleaner wrasses to joeblow public, eh?

it would be nice (and far more sensible, don't you think? ) if you were as vehemently vocal about air pollution and suv soccer mom's, as you are re: your half a**ed understanding about how the pet and pet fish piz works. (or basic reef ecology status the world over today)

just my .02

 

[naesco]

Vitz I am certain you will get the obligatory 7 day cooling off period for your insulting post. You will not be able to post but you will still be able to read my reply.

Let me clue you in on a little secret.

I did not self appoint myself as the "Tang Police" . Others posters hung that on me and I accept it with pride.
I rarely post on general reef boards but do so when asked for my opinion.
The tang threads continue and there are many on all boards who consider themselves tang police.
It makes me feel good to read those threads and think that I in a small way I may have added to those who maintain that tangs require certain minimum sized tanks.

I feel the same sense of pride when I think that there is a small chance that Eric, another industry type, or, hobbyist somewhere might pass on ordering cleaner wrasse on the next order they prepare.

I agree with your comment that MAC has failed to live up to its self- imposed timeline on cyanide testing. But, Vitz stay tuned!

 

[Anonymous]

i always get a kick over wayne's 'will' 'won't' statements



so far wayne, you're batting zero for god knows how many


i'm genuinely curious as to what motivates you to make these definitive fortune telling like replies each and every time

What motivates me is the hope that I can continue the hobby that I love into old age.
Without solid progress by industry to change its ways, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that our hobby (your business) will be shut down or severely regulated. Right now industry is batting zero!

er- how so? it's neither shut down OR regulated-and we've all heard that song and dance routine before-it was the first tactical ploy used to scare folks to get on 'your' macbandwagon in the first place-and we all know how that one turned out. there's also plenty of captive bred and propagated stock to keep me, as a reef hobbyists, enjoying this hobby until the day i die-the same is there for you

btw, how can you still be a mac fan after everything you've posted here over the past 2-3 yrs? they've made you look quite the liar

so how would shutting down the collection of MO SW fish prevent you from enjoying the hobby? the hobby doesn't revolve round only wild caught organisms-pleanty of folks have full blown reef tanks with stock that never saw a ray of wild sunlight :idea:



no one can get even 100 retail stores to agree on anything,even when it's for their own economic benefit , due to classic 'crab mentality' (read: AMDA :twisted: ) and you seem to know what WILL or WON'T happen to the industry ?hel, even the industry can't answer that one, but you KNOW??!! :roll:

the wishful thinker who keeps stating wishes as 'future facts' only does himself a disservice by making himself look unbelievably foolish, imo (memories of chicken little abound here, heh)


which of your definitive statements (need i go dig them up? ) made in the past has proved to even remotely come to fruition ? you've made statements about which species will be banned-you committted to a CDT timeline in mac's name, etc etc


it's getting to be quite laughable, especially when NOT ONCE do you ever offer an attempt at a semi reasonable possible answer, for all of your whining and crying and moaning and berating

for one who claims to 'love the hobby' you sure seem to only offer negative suggestions like shutting it down, and scolding people on husbandry issues you're mostly ignorant on as well (yelling and insulting hobbyists on a public reef board because of the self appointed title of 'tang police' has nothing at all to do with 'enjoying the hobby'


let me clue you in on a little secret.....

honorable motives aside, the coral reefs dying from pollution/disease stressors/global warming etc are going to do in all of the reefs on this planet looooong before any beaurocratic gov'tal or ngo will have anything to say about controlling this industrys livestock source-at present rates, it's very possible that there will be no more reefs, period, in 100 years, mebbe less - but at least we won't be selling any cleaner wrasses to joeblow public, eh?

it would be nice (and far more sensible, don't you think? ) if you were as vehemently vocal about air pollution and suv soccer mom's, as you are re: your half a**ed understanding about how the pet and pet fish piz works. (or basic reef ecology status the world over today)

just my .02

Da da DAAAaaaaa


I second that!


(said in Carlos Mencia voice)

 

[dizzy]

x

 

[sdcfish]

By the way, Mitch, Awesome aquarium set ups. Isn't that the rotating aquarium that is in the first pic? It looks fabulous and the fish just as good.

Bottom pic with the flames and lemon peel looks like a great setup too....fish all thriving and looking great.

Thanks for taking the time for those photos.

Best regards

Eric

 

[Anonymous]

Vitz I am certain you will get the obligatory 7 day cooling off period for your insulting post. You will not be able to post but you will still be able to read my reply.

Let me clue you in on a little secret.

I did not self appoint myself as the "Tang Police" . Others posters hung that on me and I accept it with pride.
I rarely post on general reef boards but do so when asked for my opinion.
The tang threads continue and there are many on all boards who consider themselves tang police.
It makes me feel good to read those threads and think that I in a small way I may have added to those who maintain that tangs require certain minimum sized tanks.

I feel the same sense of pride when I think that there is a small chance that Eric, another industry type, or, hobbyist somewhere might pass on ordering cleaner wrasse on the next order they prepare.

I agree with your comment that MAC has failed to live up to its self- imposed timeline on cyanide testing. But, Vitz stay tuned!

hmmm.....


well then....

ok

what, exactly, should i be staying tuned for ?

 

[dizzy]

Eric,
Yes it is and thanks for the nice comments. I'm surprised you could tell from a still photo. The point is that cleaner wrasses are not impossible fish by any stretch. I've always enjoyed the challenge of keeping difficult fish, but I'll be the first to admit it doesn't always turn out so well. You may well ahead of the curve by feeding them in your custody. If everyone thought like Wayne we would never of had marine tanks in the first place. The poor lad is so misguided and dare I say that he appears to have a learning disability.

 

[naesco]

Eric,
Yes it is and thanks for the nice comments. I'm surprised you could tell from a still photo. The point is that cleaner wrasses are not impossible fish by any stretch. I've always enjoyed the challenge of keeping difficult fish, but I'll be the first to admit it doesn't always turn out so well. You may well ahead of the curve by feeding them in your custody. If everyone thought like Wayne we would never of had marine tanks in the first place. The poor lad is so misguided and dare I say that he appears to have a learning disability.

Sure Dizzy continue to import and sell cleaner wrasse after all, after thousands have perished, it will be newbie who will find the answer to keeping them in reefers tanks. :roll:

Yours is typical of the dated thinking :idea: that industry perpetuates.

Dizzy more and more people like myself are thinking that we ought to be concerned about the reefs and the damage our industry/hobby does to the reefs. I do not think we are misguided at all.

 

[sdcfish]

Mitch Wrote:

The poor lad is so misguided and dare I say that he appears to have a learning disability.

I mostly agree with you Mitch. I also believe that Naesco has been misguided and it's been going on for a long time now...so it's deeply inbedded in his thought process. I don't think he has a learnging disability. 8O

I do see his thinking coming around after realizing the efforts and progress the Industry has made and maybe Reef Checks comments and mission have made him feel a bit more comfortable that action has been taken to keep the industry sustainable. Not to mention other perspectives that had not been as common here.....and I truly believe he want's to be part of the solution...not the problem.

So....if all of us can cut him a break, I think he can be a valuable contributor to this forum.

Best regards

Eric
Out on a limb....somebody please catch me!

 

[Anonymous]

Vitz is taking a week off.

Everyone, if you see something that needs mod/admin attention please let a mod/admin know about it and please don't post about it if you haven't let a mod/admin know about it since that is antagonistic.

 

[naesco]

Eric you really went out on a limb, eh!
You must have noticed how much I have toned down my criticism
The fact is I believe any progress is progress.

 

[Anonymous]

Vitz is taking a week off.

Everyone, if you see something that needs mod/admin attention please let a mod/admin know about it and please don't post about it if you haven't let a mod/admin know about it since that is antagonistic.

Is it really fair to make Vitz take a week off without making me?

If you think not then you might want to look up exactly what seconding means....

 

[naesco]

We have been involved with rearing post larval fish and shrimps for over 6 years now in the Solomon Islands. At present we have small blue lobster, anemone shrimp, and stenopus shrimps reared from post larvae collected in light traps available for sale every week. The price is cheap, consistent with wild collected but it is very hard to sell enough of them to make it worth doing. We did post larval rearing of fish for 4 years and found it very difficult to sell the fish for anything more than wild collected prices. I can supply hundreds if not thousands of very tiny post larval and stabilized fish each week from the Solomons if someone is interested in raising them here in the states. I did it for a couple of years in Puerto Rico and proved that it could be done, it is just hard to do it for a profit in todays market. I know that this is off topic of this thread but the fish are available if someone wants to pursue it send me a P.M.

Dave

Excellent post. Dave. Can use list which species are available for us?

Why would we want to import the adult size fish (like Pomacanthus species) when we all know that it is extremely difficult to get them eating ?

Purchasing larval raised fish makes sense because it preserves the adults to breed and sustain the reef, and provides more sales to hobbyists at a higher profit margins.

 

[naesco]

Actually Fish Dave could you move your post and answer to the Preservation thread.
In that way we can continue the excellent ideas put forward by Reefcheck et al and the comments on their progress and concerns raised.
Thanks
Thanks

 

[Fish_dave]

Wayne,

I probably was not clear enough in my post. I have no raised fish available for sale to anyone. I do have thousands of very tiny post larval collected fish that could be sold to someone interested in growing them out for the aquarium trade. We did raise them for a few years in the Solomons and found it very difficult to sell them at a price that would pay for the collecting and raising efforts, wild collected larger fish were cheaper to obtain.

For two years I shipped the very tiny fish to Puerto Rico and raised them there and sold them to the Aquarium trade. I could almost break even on raising them for sale but could not cover any capital or improvement costs for the rearing facility.

If someone reading this wants to try raising and selling these fish I have them available. The list of available species is very large. It does not include many angels, we get very few of those. It does include many tang, gobie, blenny, damsel, clown, and butterfly species in numbers as well as many other species in small quantities. To do this you would need to take 1 to 2 thousand very tiny fish per week, every week. I can not turn the supply on and off at will. It takes 3 to 4 weeks to start and stop the supply.

We do have available at present blue lobster, two species of stenopus shrimp, and some types of anemone shrimps. These are grown out to a good size and are available weekly from the Solomon Islands. These are collected in light traps and grown out by village people in the West Solomons. This gives them needed income to keep them from selling off trees for logging to the asian logging firms in the area. It is a very worthwhile and good project but is difficult to market here.

All of the very tiny post larval fish collecting that I am talking about here is done by village people in the Solomons. It is not first world people with crest nets taking fish from the reef, it is village peoples taking fish from reefs that they themselves own and the income is used for their basic needs helping them stay out of the logging spiral of destruction.

Dave

 

[naesco]

Wayne,

I probably was not clear enough in my post. I have no raised fish available for sale to anyone. I do have thousands of very tiny post larval collected fish that could be sold to someone interested in growing them out for the aquarium trade. We did raise them for a few years in the Solomons and found it very difficult to sell them at a price that would pay for the collecting and raising efforts, wild collected larger fish were cheaper to obtain.

For two years I shipped the very tiny fish to Puerto Rico and raised them there and sold them to the Aquarium trade. I could almost break even on raising them for sale but could not cover any capital or improvement costs for the rearing facility.

If someone reading this wants to try raising and selling these fish I have them available. The list of available species is very large. It does not include many angels, we get very few of those. It does include many tang, gobie, blenny, damsel, clown, and butterfly species in numbers as well as many other species in small quantities. To do this you would need to take 1 to 2 thousand very tiny fish per week, every week. I can not turn the supply on and off at will. It takes 3 to 4 weeks to start and stop the supply.

We do have available at present blue lobster, two species of stenopus shrimp, and some types of anemone shrimps. These are grown out to a good size and are available weekly from the Solomon Islands. These are collected in light traps and grown out by village people in the West Solomons. This gives them needed income to keep them from selling off trees for logging to the asian logging firms in the area. It is a very worthwhile and good project but is difficult to market here.

All of the very tiny post larval fish collecting that I am talking about here is done by village people in the Solomons. It is not first world people with crest nets taking fish from the reef, it is village peoples taking fish from reefs that they themselves own and the income is used for their basic needs helping them stay out of the logging spiral of destruction.

Dave

Thanks for your post.
Dave why are the fish not grown out at the village people site?

What is the problem is selling the tiny fish?

Is it that wholesalers cannot handle the volume?
Is it that the industry is not aware that these fish are available?
Or is it that industry can buy wild fish cheaper?
If so, in real terms can you give me some examples of wild vs larval fish pricing.

The reason I mentioned angels is that I bought some tiny ones. When I mentioned to another retailer, he did not know where he could buy them.
I am therefore assuming there is a marketing problem.

Eric and others.
Why would you continue to purchase wild caught of the species available when these fish are available.

To REEFCHECK
Is it not better to put money into the Solomons to assist the village people in marketing these fish rather than fight the battle in the Philippines? At least, some of the money.