Conservation Thread

[clarionreef]

Reducing the number of cyanide fishers thru training was the idea 25 years ago and to the everlasting shame of a high maintenance, professional, good ol eco-boys club , it has been hard to get accepted.
They try it...cash in on it and fail...
And then say it doesn't work.
and I agree, in their hands, it doesn't.
Meanwhile, the earths population doubles and global warming marches on.
25 years and 7-8 million to train 500 fishermen well?
Oh my goodness. We should all be ashamed of ourselves.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

But I am afraid that citing #s of hits on web sites is not the way science works.

The claim is being made that CN is damaging reefs on a large scale by many of those you cite. I am just raising the question of how realistic this claim is and I am not claiming I have any study to back this up -- but neither does anyone who is making the claim if you read my previous post carefully.

:lol: Yup, googling is definitly not science, but hey, that was far from what I was saying :wink: . My point is/was, the battle cry was put forth by all involved in MAMTI about cyanide being a major problem, now a party of MAMTI is saying it's "over blown" after the funding is in place?

I'm still waiting on the peer reviewed paper citing that the CN problem is "over blown". I guess I'll just have to wait for you to get back from Baja, have fun in the Loreto National Park

 

[naesco]

Theres a problem when you try to remain positive and constructive;
It is suggested that now theres no constantly documented proof of cyanide damage because we have moved past it to the remedy phase....
Who wants to re-hash it all?
Oh...the people who missed it all the first 20 years or so and just joined us. I see.

Living with fisherfolk;
When you live with fisherman in their villages....what do you think we talk about 24-7?...and I mean, 24-7.
When you camp out on the islands and in bancas while fishing far away...what do you think we discuss?
On the 6 hour bus rides to market in Manila with divers bring their catch...whats on the intellectual menu do you think?
When you train fishers and they feel free and safe...you can talk to them til 3 in the morning about their history with cyanide fishing and their stories. When they graduate and learn netcatching, they spill the beans so to speak and will tell all who care to listen what happened all those years.

Living this full time and sleeping in the same huts as fish collectors makes them real...and in many cases, more real then can be imagined. My best friends are ex-cyanide fisherman and we still keep in touch.
They have worked for every group out there...and we kept in touch...and they work around he world...and we are still in touch.

What I know from real life experience about cyanide fishing, its prevalance, its effect and its aftermath has never been shared with the new groups now on stage. [ but it was shared at the Western Marine Conference on Saturday]
The divers know the effect far better then marine scientists who only now dally in it as its become en vogue and funded.
The divers know what happens to the fish and corals as they observed it as a daily routine. Thanks to them, I did as well.
Mature cyanided acroporas slough off pints of snot mucous as they die and turn white within 3-4 days. This is too obvious to point out, but a thousand guys doing this on a commercial level 200 days a year clean out a lot of coral tonnage and habitat.
Few ...[read none...] scientists dive all day with cyanide fishers in the normal commercial hunt for fishes....and see what happens.
Few, if any could even keep up with them as commercial fishers are much stronger divers and can last all day at sea.
The lack of physical ability has kept scientists away from truth on a huge level and they are left searching for it on their computer screens hoping to find info from other scientists who have also failed to work with the locals in any serious manner.
I have thousands of hours underwater in the Philippine alone and hundreds w/ cyanide fishers themselves.
I even have 3-4 hours using cyanide it to gain acceptance and favor with fisherman .

So many times we hoped to be joined by scientific reason and so many times we found the scientists of the time either ensconced in a culture of petty corruption and no missionary zeal or ignorant and dis-interested in the lives and workplaces of the fisherman.
If not for Dr Rubec and Dr Mcallisters work and field visits, we would still have much of this denied I'm sure.

Burning out critical coral habitat weighs heaviliy on specific aquarium species and eliminates blue tangs first on ever single reef.The blue tang is the classic indicator species of a reef too close to cyanide fishers. They range near and far to bring em home and delete the vital coral niche with each and every tang caught. Needless to say, this ruins the habitat for any other species as well and kills the larvae thereabouts as well.
Watching cyanide fisherman at work before interfering with them is truly thing to behold. Few will see it but the carnage is incredible, relentless, and ongoing for hours.
The by-catch is fully 50% of the fishes poisoned..and is left behind.
The spastic, spinning and crashing into coralheads by angelfishes is so sad to watch...they rocket around and then lie still. Half do not come out of the corals and stay inside. Then the corals may get crushed to reach the inert fishes.
No documented damage? :roll:
Puh-lease...
All that means is that no city boys were invited to come and dive on a cyanide boat...thats all. And why would a cyanide fisher want to bring out strangers to watch him break the law???
Pointing out the paucity of documentation on felony committing fisherman suggests merely that they prefer to break the law in private...... :roll:
I have denied writing a dozen posts like this...but this one got out.
Sorry.
Steve

Steve, thank you for bringing out one more time the cruel and damaging cyanide scenario for all to see.!

This readers is what Mary Middlebrook referred to as ""Industy's Dirty l
Little Secret"
To deny that cyanide is a problem is to deny the Holocaust!!



Wayne

 

[Anonymous]

Theres a problem when you try to remain positive and constructive;
It is suggested that now theres no constantly documented proof of cyanide damage because we have moved past it to the remedy phase....
Who wants to re-hash it all?
Oh...the people who missed it all the first 20 years or so and just joined us. I see.

Living with fisherfolk;
When you live with fisherman in their villages....what do you think we talk about 24-7?...and I mean, 24-7.
When you camp out on the islands and in bancas while fishing far away...what do you think we discuss?
On the 6 hour bus rides to market in Manila with divers bring their catch...whats on the intellectual menu do you think?
When you train fishers and they feel free and safe...you can talk to them til 3 in the morning about their history with cyanide fishing and their stories. When they graduate and learn netcatching, they spill the beans so to speak and will tell all who care to listen what happened all those years.

Living this full time and sleeping in the same huts as fish collectors makes them real...and in many cases, more real then can be imagined. My best friends are ex-cyanide fisherman and we still keep in touch.
They have worked for every group out there...and we kept in touch...and they work around he world...and we are still in touch.

What I know from real life experience about cyanide fishing, its prevalance, its effect and its aftermath has never been shared with the new groups now on stage. [ but it was shared at the Western Marine Conference on Saturday]
The divers know the effect far better then marine scientists who only now dally in it as its become en vogue and funded.
The divers know what happens to the fish and corals as they observed it as a daily routine. Thanks to them, I did as well.
Mature cyanided acroporas slough off pints of snot mucous as they die and turn white within 3-4 days. This is too obvious to point out, but a thousand guys doing this on a commercial level 200 days a year clean out a lot of coral tonnage and habitat.
Few ...[read none...] scientists dive all day with cyanide fishers in the normal commercial hunt for fishes....and see what happens.
Few, if any could even keep up with them as commercial fishers are much stronger divers and can last all day at sea.
The lack of physical ability has kept scientists away from truth on a huge level and they are left searching for it on their computer screens hoping to find info from other scientists who have also failed to work with the locals in any serious manner.
I have thousands of hours underwater in the Philippine alone and hundreds w/ cyanide fishers themselves.
I even have 3-4 hours using cyanide it to gain acceptance and favor with fisherman .

So many times we hoped to be joined by scientific reason and so many times we found the scientists of the time either ensconced in a culture of petty corruption and no missionary zeal or ignorant and dis-interested in the lives and workplaces of the fisherman.
If not for Dr Rubec and Dr Mcallisters work and field visits, we would still have much of this denied I'm sure.

Burning out critical coral habitat weighs heaviliy on specific aquarium species and eliminates blue tangs first on ever single reef.The blue tang is the classic indicator species of a reef too close to cyanide fishers. They range near and far to bring em home and delete the vital coral niche with each and every tang caught. Needless to say, this ruins the habitat for any other species as well and kills the larvae thereabouts as well.
Watching cyanide fisherman at work before interfering with them is truly thing to behold. Few will see it but the carnage is incredible, relentless, and ongoing for hours.
The by-catch is fully 50% of the fishes poisoned..and is left behind.
The spastic, spinning and crashing into coralheads by angelfishes is so sad to watch...they rocket around and then lie still. Half do not come out of the corals and stay inside. Then the corals may get crushed to reach the inert fishes.
No documented damage? :roll:
Puh-lease...
All that means is that no city boys were invited to come and dive on a cyanide boat...thats all. And why would a cyanide fisher want to bring out strangers to watch him break the law???
Pointing out the paucity of documentation on felony committing fisherman suggests merely that they prefer to break the law in private...... :roll:
I have denied writing a dozen posts like this...but this one got out.
Sorry.
Steve

Steve, thank you for bringing out one more time the cruel and damaging cyanide scenario for all to see.!

This readers is what Mary Middlebrook referred to as ""Industy's Dirty l
Little Secret"
To deny that cyanide is a problem is to deny the Holocaust!!


Wayne

as a jew, and as a human being, i find your comparison of the killing of millions of innocent people at the hands of a brutal dictator for the goal of extermination of whole cultures to cyanide fishing, to be insulting, and morally reprehensible, and i think you owe many an apology by belittling one of the darkest periods in human history, and equating the slaughter of millions of innocent people to what's being discussed here


shame on you and your hyperbole

 

[clarionreef]

Wayne,
MACs failure [see all the firings, resignations and charges/countercharges ] has led them to a face saving decision;
break the mission and let others use the vehicle for their own mission.
Reefcheck is a reef checking group and needs to shift the definition of the problem to something they know about and have a plan for.
Their work to establish MPAs and survey reefs is wonderful to be sure... but thats not the mission here.
The mission that they are funded for is being diverted it would appear as a wounded MAC sits on the sidelines.
The irony is, there already is a good deal of support, energy, funding for MPAs. There is no need to plunder the aquarium reform budget for it. [ see attachment of the current Coral list put out by Noaa]
Then again...at least Reefcheck knows what they're doing in their own field and the money would not be wasted.

MAC and CCIF are simply miscast in this role and although they won the million dollar budget, they cannot win over a few fisherman.
Thats because grant writing skills are not the same skills that it takes to win over a few hundred fisherman.
Steve
PS.
Wayne.... holocaust is a people term... like 9-11 and should not be used lightly.

 

[sdcfish]

Greg Writes:

The claim is being made that CN is damaging reefs on a large scale by many of those you cite. I am just raising the question of how realistic this claim is and I am not claiming I have any study to back this up -- but neither does anyone who is making the claim if you read my previous post carefully.
[/quote]

Greg also writes:

You are free to believe what you want but my 25 odd years of working on Philippine reefs with and without CN fishing suggests that there is more hype than reality to the CN destroying Phil reefs hypothesis and certainly no peer reviewed paper that demonstrates this. Sure, CN can kill fish and corals, but what is the extent of the impacts on a country scale?

Guys,

Greg is trying to point out the bigger picture of the problems here and is in now way saying that CN fishing isn't a problem, only that in the large scope of things, it's probably not the biggest of all the problems out there.

I for one support what Greg's 25 years of experience and research in the Philipines has lead him to believe. I just don't know why some of the others here find it so hard to believe that CN fishing isn't the "SOLVE ALL" problem and continue to take statements and twist them around.

So as I read all these comments by Peter, I must wonder if there is even a correct answer in all the questions he asks? It's tiring to me to read on and be amazed at how statements can be twisted and turned to make one look bad. Peter, what is your problem? Are you for the cause, against the cause, or only for your cause? I can't figure it out.

Arrrrrgh!

Eric

Greg ends his comment on:

I would be interested in other ideas you may have about how the trade can directly be involved in reef conservation.

Reef Check has VOLUNTEER teams in about 80 countries. We would be happy to pick up your ideas and implement them in the field.

Let's try to get this forum on the right track instead of just trying to find ways of how to discredit the groups that are working towards solving the problems that we are all so passionate about.

 

[Anonymous]

Had to read that one a few times, prior to finding that you wrote within the quote you quoted of Gregs.

I'm not trying to descredit any group. I'm trying to grasp just why a party of MAMTI is downplaying the the effects of CN on the reef after all the funding reports have long since been written, and MAMTI funded. The INCREDIBLE use of the word CN in all the documents, webpages, etc. of MAMTI related parties is total evidance in my book the battle cry was used (and abused if MAMTI feels it's "overblown"). To come here now and down play it, say it's "over blown" just looks odd at best. It only draws one scenerio in my mind, can't solve it, sweep it under the rug.

Greg demands peer reviewed papers to be held up, prior to beliving anything, so I think it is more then fair for him to be held up to the same standards he asking for. Post proof please.

Your the mouth piece for ReefCheck here, your opinion is that of RC, not your personal one. Had you joined this venue as Greg, and not a ReefCheckHQ, you'd be speaking from your own point of view, but you didn't. The fact is, here you are Reef Check and you have stated that Reef Check feels the problem is overblown.

Good science raises hypotheses such as we are discussing, then tests them, and then retests them again and again until they are accepted.

Meanwhile, the reefs continue to get pounded by CN.

 

[sdcfish]

Gresham,

First of all, Reefcheck is not overlooking the CN problem....he is simply stating that it's not as bad as people HERE IN THIS FORUM are stating, and I have always agreed with that. This is no suprise to me.

My opinion is one of the Industry coming from the importer side. We see hundreds of boxes of fish from this region every week and have not seen the problems with the high doa's or daa's that this forum has presented in the past.

I am a supporter of Reefcheck and it's mission. It's long overdue and I only wish that the people that had been in this industry long ago had seen the need for some kind of management plan to give our industry a chance for a long term survival and a positive impact on the reefs over there.

I advise everyone to read Greg's posts clearly and make up their own opionions, but not to jump on a bandwagon either way....mine or others.

If anyone wants to make a difference, then support the groups that are trying to make one. That's the approach we are taking.

Best regards

Eric

P.S Your final comment about "the reefs continuing to get pounded", is exactly what I fear people will believe and is absolutely contrary to what I believe is the truth.

 

[clarionreef]

Eric,
Many people have never had the chance to witness first hand commercial scale cyanide fishing that has been a hallmark of the trade in fishes in the Philippines and Indonesia for the length of our time in the trade.
This is understandable...and has been explained.

Nor have many people who count witnessed muro ami fishing where fisherman [ children ] as young as 13 years old were employed by BFAR sanctioned businesses for decades.....
Lino Alvarez [ ex-MAC coordinator] and I got Minister Mitra [ dept of agriculture] to see a pirated film of it in 1986 and he ordered it banned.

Our enemies list grew after that in leaps and bounds as we exposed the live food fish trade in an in depth memo to then Fisheries Deputy, Philip Juico. We were able to research this with the support of now BFAR chief Sarmiento. Sarmiento was in fact our leak back then on many nefarious deeds that he was held back from investigating.
Once he gave us a siezed contract for free cyanide awarded per kilo of food fish gathered for a company allied with partners of soon to be president Fidel Ramos. He said he could not even use it safely.

Then we served as consultants on Sarmientos task force on illegal fishing and were present on fish market raids to confiscate dynamited fish provided by dynamite fisher groups financed thru military personel.
We came up with the idea to give the siezed fish to the churches to be percieved as the good guys in the news stories.

I remember comlaining to Lino how we were advancing on all fronts except the aquarium trades part in reef destruction!
So...
When we finally blew the whistle on the aquarium trade in press conferences hosted and paid for by the Philippine Fisheries and Development Authority PFDA...the exporters panicked and threatened to kill divers in Bolinao in written death threats.
I was threatened with lawsuit from the PTFEA and fought back by sending the press to check out my claims with Dr. Ed Gomez and Dr Angel Alcala of their marine science depts.
When this led to TV news stories from the field about cyanide use and its prevalence and effects...the exporters sued the TV station.
The trial reached a climax when the exporter called of Indo Pacific...broke down on the stand and admitted that they all used cyanide and that it was the way its done everywhere.
[Featured in the TV story were rare interviews with cyanide fishers who freely admitted what they had done before...and that the fish disappeared.]
Soon after, the exporters lost their case...and ordered to pay the fees of the TV station attorneys.
This all happened in a brief period in 86.
You should see a brief period in 1983...or the amazing 5 months of break out trainings in 1993 that gave rise to the population of Filipinos working the South Pacific to this day.
The decimation of the Danajon Bank off Buhol so impoverished the fisherman there that they eagerly host any foreign project that comes along hoping for a trickle down of funding to their communities.
The Eyas cyanide empire was born there and tons were used in the region by kids as young as 12. The effect on the area was unknown as it went unnoticed by foreigners for 20 years.
Then there is the story of Cagayancillo in the early 2000's where the mayor kicked MAC out of the island and the sordid David Baskin tragedy.
And the bait and switch of cyanide fish and samples in a BFAR lab from the collecting boat of the Vice President of MAC....in '03.
Then theres the....ok...enough.
If you want to talk about saving coral reefs for real...lets go. We are apparently on the same page, right?
Steve

 

[Tropic]

As a importer, i agree with Eric and Gregor on this issue. Not begrudging anybody, but i think certain topics have been exploited and overdone to win crowd appeal in both the science realm and the private sector. Maybe Greg is full of crap....we will never know if everybody gets sidetracked. So far, based on what he is saying, he seems logical and openminded. Part of the problem here is also Naesco making absurd statements. You always post first and think later.Comparing cyanide and coral reefs to the Holocaust is not right at all! Shame on you.

If you really want change to occur, and i am referring to the people who take these issues to heart; then we need to stop pointing fingers, communicate, analyze, and make progress. Whats done is done, and arguing about it acomplishes nothing. Furthermore, as far as all of us know, maybe Greg has been doing his required job, maybe he is telling us the truth, and noone here can disprove what he says unless you were there! So the all of the teeth and claws need to be put away, and give the man a chance! he deserves it.

Sincerely
Eric Koch
Reef Savers Inc.

 

[PeterIMA]

Eric, You have not spent the past 20 years trying to implement net training and dealing with all the obfuscation of the issues. Gregor is just one of a long line of trade and academics, who have ruined what was a simple problem with a simple solution (net-training). Read between the lines (you claim to be good at this). I agree with Steve. We documented the issues (not just cyanide fishing) in numerous publications in both the trade and the scientific (peer reviewed literature). Gregor seems intent on changing the very basis of the MAMTI grant to the detriment of the collectors and others in the chain of custody from reefs to retailers.

Peter Rubec

 

[naesco]

To Vitz and anyone who was offended by my comment I apologize'
Thanks
Wayne

 

[Anonymous]

Vitz please relax of course no comparison was intended.
Do you have something to add to this thread?
Thanks
Wayne

I agree with Vitz


Please relax isin't exactly an apology....

 

[Kalkbreath]

Twenty years is quite a track record.
But what was true twenty years ago may not really apply today out on the reefs of the Philippines.
Want to be mad that fishermen twenty years ago threw cyanide pellets by the hand full over the reefs back in 1987? Sure feel free to ......but to twenty years later want to blame the fishermen currently working the reefs is silly.
Is it even possible that fishermen today fish like they did back then?
With fish counts at an all time low, todays collectors know that every fish counts.
Modern day collectors dont kill fifty percent of the blue tangs, clown triggers or Blue face angels.......by over dosing. (even if they did back when these fish were plentiful)
If we are to believe CDT test results from Peter, that showed low cyanide use is possible in PI. The Why are we so quick to forget that from 1995 to 1998,
60% cyanide (1995) to 10 percent (1998) shows that in just a few years fish collecting methods can swing from mostly cyanide to cyanide being less then ten percent. (with fish quantities remaining the same!)
This tells me that today in 2006 it might still be only about ten percent or less. Why wouldnt it be?
The demand for big reef fish is at an all time low.( Bigger fish required more cyanide) . (Thier also smarter and faster fish)
Modern Reef tank hobbyists desire: tiny reef fish.
The average box of PI fish landing in LAX has on average over 100 fish inside. Tiny fish cant tolerate high doses of poison
Tiny blennies , gobies and other reef tank fish have made the targets collectors aim at much smaller then back in 1985. (No body hunts
squirrels with an elephant gun.) ( well maybe the vice President) Whats the cyanide threshold of a tiny two ounce gobi ? How does this comapre to thethreshold of the coral ?
How many of the fish collected from PI nowadays are even cyanide suspect? Of the 5 million PI fish currently landing in the USA each year (Compared to the 12 million back in 1995):
Half are damsels, next mandarins and other Gobi's. Algea blennies, fire fish , clown fish etc.........thats quite a contrast from what was being imported back in the 1980s and 1990s.
Did collectors even collect tiny yellow watchman gobies back in 1985? Secondly , Most of these current fish are not even collected in live coral, but rather are collected inshore rubble and sandy zones.
Using twenty year old accounts and data seems a bit silly.
Heck even the data from 2001 is more then likely not applicable in todays reef tank driven industry.
I suggest we make an effort to establish whats the current state of the PI reefs and what our current generation of collectors are doing.
Would it make sense to judge the modern retail fish store like my own , by what was witnessed and writtten back in 1985?
A lot has changed..........Kalk.

 

[clarionreef]

Kalk,
The big chains now consume more basic Philippine fish then ever...and at a growing rate.
While the independants are moving to reefs and smaller fishes....Petco and other use huge quantities of coral beauties, bicolors, butterflies and basic fishes.
Perhaps in time, they too will segue towards reef aquariums, but for now, they push the beginners stuff and more then any other sector in the trade.
As far as cyanide use today...which area to you want an update on?
There are diver confidants in every region now and good, current information is easy to come by.
Unfortunately ...Indo poisons fish like never before while the Philippines does indeed make progress on their own.
Steve

 

[Kalkbreath]

oopsey

 

[Kalkbreath]

I still have not seen a single photo showing "trade" cyanide damage.
Not one single image of a reef harmed by the trade.(in the ten years or so Ive been asking )
Sure we can dig out the hazy photos of fist size white outs that Kirda found during his trip two years ago , but for a two week trip to The Philippines what MR Kirda found would hardly justify the public out cry from the Naesco crowd .
That even he(Kirda) still champions today after not finding what he hyped for years about speaks volumes? This issue is hardly like Peters quest to find Big Foot years ago. this myth shouldnt bee hat hard to find.
What I would like to see, is hundreds of photos of ten to twenty foot swaths of bleached white corals.
Large dead areas of cyanide killed corals each time a collector squirts.
Thats what the reeformers describe as being what our fishermen do to the reefs.
Its been a decade and I still have yet to see what should be quite easy to photograph. Why?
Hundreds of visits by freelance reeformers and MAC personel to the the scene of the crimes......yet no one seems to have been able to capture this illusive creature on film!
Ive seen more photos of Big Foot then MO cyanide damage.
Seems if the reefs are still healthy enough to evade capture.... why are we worried ? :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

Twenty years is quite a track record.
But what was true twenty years ago may not really apply today out on the reefs of the Philippines.
Want to be mad that fishermen twenty years ago threw cyanide pellets by the hand full over the reefs back in 1987? Sure feel free to ......but to twenty years later want to blame the fishermen currently working the reefs is silly.
Is it even possible that fishermen today fish like they did back then?
With fish counts at an all time low, todays collectors know that every fish counts.
Modern day collectors dont kill fifty percent of the blue tangs, clown triggers or Blue face angels.......by over dosing. (even if they did back when these fish were plentiful)
If we are to believe CDT test results from Peter, that showed low cyanide use is possible in PI. The Why are we so quick to forget that from 1995 to 1998,
60% cyanide (1995) to 10 percent (1998) shows that in just a few years fish collecting methods can swing from mostly cyanide to cyanide being less then ten percent. (with fish quantities remaining the same!)
This tells me that today in 2006 it might still be only about ten percent or less. Why wouldnt it be?
The demand for big reef fish is at an all time low.( Bigger fish required more cyanide) . (Thier also smarter and faster fish)
Modern Reef tank hobbyists desire: tiny reef fish.
The average box of PI fish landing in LAX has on average over 100 fish inside. Tiny fish cant tolerate high doses of poison
Tiny blennies , gobies and other reef tank fish have made the targets collectors aim at much smaller then back in 1985. (No body hunts
squirrels with an elephant gun.) ( well maybe the vice President) Whats the cyanide threshold of a tiny two ounce gobi ? How does this comapre to thethreshold of the coral ?
How many of the fish collected from PI nowadays are even cyanide suspect? Of the 5 million PI fish currently landing in the USA each year (Compared to the 12 million back in 1995):
Half are damsels, next mandarins and other Gobi's. Algea blennies, fire fish , clown fish etc.........thats quite a contrast from what was being imported back in the 1980s and 1990s.
Did collectors even collect tiny yellow watchman gobies back in 1985? Secondly , Most of these current fish are not even collected in live coral, but rather are collected inshore rubble and sandy zones.
Using twenty year old accounts and data seems a bit silly.
Heck even the data from 2001 is more then likely not applicable in todays reef tank driven industry.
I suggest we make an effort to establish whats the current state of the PI reefs and what our current generation of collectors are doing.
Would it make sense to judge the modern retail fish store like my own , by what was witnessed and writtten back in 1985?
A lot has changed..........Kalk.

Amen Brother!

 

[Anonymous]

To Vitz and anyone who was offended by my comment I apologize'
Thanks
Wayne

I forgive you.


Bryan

 

[mark@mac]

hey vitz,

killing the reefs = equals killing all of humankind......

not just one race.

with all due respect,

slick willy