Conservation Thread

[clarionreef]

maybe we should do what we do here for farmers-pay them to NOT collect ...

Or...if you can't train the poor fisherman.... you could just shoot them like they do in the new TNC controlled Komodo National Park in Indonesia.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

You'd better post a link so they know what your talking about Steve. I have the text, but no link:

Komodo National Park: Conservation for Whom?
Komodo National Park lies between Sumbawa and Flores Island in Nusa Tenggara. The 132 572 hectare site was designated a World Heritage Site and a Biosphere Reserve in 1986.
In 1995, the government made an agreement with the American environment group, The Nature Conservancy (TNC), to support Komodo management. Since TNC’s arrival, the Park has become the site of numerous conflicts between communities and Park management.
The group has been accused of trying to ‘privatize’ and ‘commodify’ Komodo National Park, through ecotourism and other income generating projects. This has occurred at the expense of the local community, which has been shut out of Park management decision-making.
TNC is perceived as seeing communities as the main threat to their conservation program. They are seen as favouring the private sector as a partner in expanding their conservation program over local people. While some local communities support the program, there has been strong opposition from other local people, as well as local environment groups, who say they were not consulted about the plan, and that it will not benefit all of the local people.
The designation of the Marine Protected Area Program has substantially affected the livelihoods and income of around 20 000 people from the local fishing communities. The Nature Conservancy and Park authorities consistently describe community development programs as a success in their reports to the government and international donors. In reality, most of these programs have failed.
In order to limit people’s access to the park, management have formed joint ranger teams. The teams consist of park rangers, navy, police and fisher services, which work together on routine patrols. However, these patrols have operated in an extremely violent fashion, beating and shooting fisher folk they encounter.
Since the Komodo National Park was established, ten people have been killed and three others remain missing. There have been widespread claims of beatings and torture carried out by the joint patrol teams, and several fishermen and their families have been exiled from the National Park zone. At least 40 fishermen were tortured and arrested. Every suspect was denied access to legal rights and sentenced to imprisonment between one and two years by the civil court.

 

[Anonymous]

don't diss an idea because of a misapplication of said idea

 

[clarionreef]

The Jakarta Post, May 6th, 2003
Its been a terrible secret for a few years to the Western eco mindset, but the The Nature Conservancy controlled Komodo National Park has sponsored rangers who sometimes take the law unto themselves and have delt with suspects in pretty heavy handed ways....ie. execution on the spot.
The report you cited came from;
Indonesian Forum for Environment (WALHI)
Friends of the Earth Indonesia
Jl. Tegal Parang Utara No. 14
Jakarta 12790, INDONESIA
Tlp : +62(0)21-791 93 363 | Fax : +62(0)21-794 1673 | E-mail : [email protected]
For membership enquiries, donations, please contact our Resource Raising Division at our National Office or send an e-mail to : [email protected]

Many locals are very upset at the heavy handed way that THE TNC-WWF-CCIF-GEF creative financing take over of the famous world heritage park.
More are upset at the co-option of the revenue stream and still more over the creative political manuvering run to win the day.

The incident funded gunman that killed the fisherman have done a lot of harm to the principle of local community relations to say the least.
Community relations have long been on the templates for the procedures to set up MPAs.
Whats needed now is the sincerity and the genuine interaction with the communities to be effective and friendly afterwards...not to mention their involvement beyond tokenism....and "step and fetch it" eco-economic development.
Locals...real locals need to be woven into the take-over to the extent that its no longer seen as a take-over.
Steve

 

[naesco]

The Jakarta Post, May 6th, 2003
Its been a terrible secret for a few years to the Western eco mindset, but the The Nature Conservancy controlled Komodo National Park has sponsored rangers who sometimes take the law unto themselves and have delt with suspects in pretty heavy handed ways....ie. execution on the spot.
The report you cited came from;
Indonesian Forum for Environment (WALHI)
Friends of the Earth Indonesia
Jl. Tegal Parang Utara No. 14
Jakarta 12790, INDONESIA
Tlp : +62(0)21-791 93 363 | Fax : +62(0)21-794 1673 | E-mail : [email protected]
For membership enquiries, donations, please contact our Resource Raising Division at our National Office or send an e-mail to : [email protected]

Many locals are very upset at the heavy handed way that THE TNC-WWF-CCIF-GEF creative financing take over of the famous world heritage park.
More are upset at the co-option of the revenue stream and still more over the creative political manuvering run to win the day.

The incident funded gunman that killed the fisherman have done a lot of harm to the principle of local community relations to say the least.
Community relations have long been on the templates for the procedures to set up MPAs.
Whats needed now is the sincerity and the genuine interaction with the communities to be effective and friendly afterwards...not to mention their involvement beyond tokenism....and "step and fetch it" eco-economic development.
Locals...real locals need to be woven into the take-over to the extent that its no longer seen as a take-over.
Steve

Steve was he fishing using cyanide!

 

[clarionreef]

Wayne,
And if he was???
Steve

 

[naesco]

Wayne,
And if he was???
Steve

Why would they shoot him unless he was using cyanide?

 

[clarionreef]

huh?
Are you serious? :roll:
Steve

 

[PeterIMA]

I believe the original incident involved food fishermen using hookah to catch spiny lobsters at night. There was no cyanide or dynamite seized after they shot at about 17 or 18 fishers in 3 boats, killing two fishers.

Peter Rubec

 

[PeterIMA]

Post Deleted since it was already posted on separate thread.

Peter

 

[Jaime Baquero]

S. Robinson and Peter Rubec,

I do think that you guys should open your own forum and invite people that want to fight and be threaten with legal actions.

I find that your behaivour is irresponsable, you are chasing away people that are willing to share his/her ideas or sharing his/her experiences. Would be better if both of you take a "holiday" from reefs.org and allow new people with other ideas to contribute finding solutions to the problems. So far what I can see is that both of you are part of the problem.

 

[clarionreef]

Jaime,
Have you ever posted an idea besides the knee jerk harping on others posts?
I mean, 90% of your posts are about me and Peter.
You seem to be obsessed with us. Scroll back thru the years and verify this.
Surely you believe in something else besides the infallibility of big American organizations in the tropics....and us.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Jaime,
Have you ever posted an idea besides the knee jerk harping on others posts?
I mean, 90% of your posts are about me and Peter.
You seem to be obsessed with us. Scroll back thru the years and verify this.
Surely you believe in something else besides the infallibility of big American organizations in the tropics....and us.
Steve

Steve, what do you think about Jaimes central idea - that the RC guys have been chased off?

 

[clarionreef]

Rich,
I have been more interested in the Certification of mangrove destruction w/ WALMART industrial shrimp farming and the Komodo saga and a lesser contributor to the RC dialogue.
However,
I don't see how you can have any dialogue that will not upset some people who invest their lives in these issues.

Chasing them off?
Isn't that an insult to them and a suggestion that their sensitivities are so fragile, delicately choereographed and and brittle as to not weather some level of disagreement?
Clearly they are welcome to post and clearly they did.
In fact, the forum is for the airing of all sides, is it not?
The RC mission is not the only conservation topic around and the silence of the new MAC and CCIF folks has been obvious.
The aquarium trade issues are far more than reef surveys that get handed over to others to make decisions with....if they even act on it.

The quiet time when RC was making their case was never accompanied by the MAC and CCIF folks.
In fact only RC was heard from and even disavowed speaking for MACs issues and troubles.
Fair enough. But if only RC contributed, we were still left with no real fairplay forum where all sides can be heard.
The RC has outlined its mission here alone....while the GEF and the grand plan are mostly hidden still.
Pardon me for keeping my eye on the ball and not being diverted by a shell game.
Scared them off?
They never started. The lesser funded partner in the GEFs organization was the only contributor....RC.
Sending out RC to run cover for the rest of the plan is clever though as it works its cause with more competence and professionalism.

But leaving out the MAC and CCIFs is leaving out 3/4s of the real deal.
It seems to me that RC knows what its doing as the others do not and are afraid of equal and even discourse with aquarium professionals not in their camp.
Still, I think RC has done itself well, and won points here....especially for showing up and tolerating dissent .
I did not know that anyone left. I though that they said their piece and its then to be sustained by public imterest.
Steve
ps.
I never, ever threatened anyone... ever....w/ lawsuits . It is inaccurate to lump me with that . And besides....both sides did that...
Ex MAC people, and others contributed far more dialogue with RC then I did. I edited and help back most of the time as the record would show.

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Jaime,
Have you ever posted an idea besides the knee jerk harping on others posts?
I mean, 90% of your posts are about me and Peter.
You seem to be obsessed with us. Scroll back thru the years and verify this.
Surely you believe in something else besides the infallibility of big American organizations in the tropics....and us.
Steve

The ideas have been around for many years...I would say decades. We have a good idea of what should be done to contribute finding solutions to the many problems this trade has. An idea is to find the way to provide collectors in the Philippines with the economic incentive to keep them using nets instead of cyanide and at the same time to take better care of the collected fish. Your answer to that was simple " it is exporters' responsibility" as if the other links of the trade were not there.t.

The problem in the Philippines is more than simple net training. I do believe that other issues have been neglected by the industry and also the central government in the Philippines. Social, and economic aspects must be included if we want to see long lasting results.

The industry has been neglecting the coral reefs and the fisherfolks in the Philippines. I have said that is time for this industry to put something back....but nothing is hapenning.

When I say that you are a good trainer I'm not kidding..you're. When I say that you lack of tact and manners ...I'm right. You are also good in rethoric... but that's it. Look what happened with the AMDA raising funds campaing..it was a disaster. You must accept that you do not have the credibility you wish. That....is very bad for the cause when we see that people that would like to contribute stay away because you are there...assuming a kind of "leadership position". I have not met you but I have a good idea who you are.

This was the first time I mentioned Peter Rubec in a post. The reason was simple I found it was not right to threaten Greg with a lawsuit.

What is needed here is new people with new ideas...people that know how to respect each other even when are differences of opinion. One thing that you have to understand is that you have hurt people, you have accused people of criminals. You can not do that and at the same time "try to work with them".

The fact is that people that could be interested in participating in this type of forums change their minds when they realize there is lack of respect or threatens of legal action.

When I said that you are chasing people away I meant that people do not stay for too long when they get insults or threats.

 

[clarionreef]

Its easy to focus on a messenger when you cannot deal w/ the message, but dude, you really have to get over me and move on.
Steve

 

[Jaime Baquero]

If you take a "holiday" from reefs.org that could be a good contribution to the cause.

 

[Tropic]

Jaime,

Speak for yourself. Although Steve might post in a brash manner sometimes, i dont think it merits kicking him off of this forum. Sheesh, everyone needs to stop being so sensitive. If you read through this thread you will see that many people, Steve included, got pretty torqued up, yet noone left the discussion, and no one has been sued. I for one like hearing both sides to every story....Gregor's post have been informative, and Steve and Peter's questions have been legitimate....so what exactly is the problem?

Here is a question for the conservation topic; are we going to have any other scientific, or ngo based groups coming on hear to discuss ideas?
From the best i can tell, it sounds like Gregor is doing what he is supposed to be doing in a logical manner.

I would like to discuss CITES, how it is formulated, how it is enforced, and why this system is unrealistic and a abismal failure unfairly persecuting importers and exporters alike!
I would like to discuss exporters holding systems, how can this be improved to minimize death after capture, where could the money and technology come from, and why hasnt it happened yet?
I would like to discuss Animal transport, standards, new break throughs that minimize DOA
I would like to discuss MAC

Sincerely
Eric

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Eric,

To your question "are we going to have any other scientific, or ngo based groups coming to discuss ideas" the answer is NO many people are going to show up in this forum knowing how rough it gets ... to the point that when someone disagree there are unpolite reactions as "threaten the individual with lawsuits" or lack of respect. If you were from the scientific community or a director of an NGO would you be "interested" in facing that situation?

If there is a "holiday" there is a possibility that people from the groups you mentioned as well as from the same industry would participate in a constructive way. They're not getting in here just because of an individual.
Is that fair?

 

[dizzy]

Well Greg and the other Reef Check staff showed us a lot by coming here. Greg really comes off as being his own man and not some brown-nosing type. I think they are trying to do important work and we should all wish them success.
Mitch