• Why not take a moment to introduce yourself to our members?

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Race

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Peter,
I am interested. I guess that I am not smart enough to have all of the answers so I tend to leave some issues to those more in the know than me. I am making an effort to learn.

We should all focus on our own areas of expertise. Mine is education --- not fund raising, board meetings, politics and lobbying. They are important but I am not qualified.

I have stated before that together we can make a difference, each focusing on what we do best. Today, the sense of togetherness in this industry is missing but I do believe that things are improving. Despite what I read here at times, I have a positive outlook on the industry and feel good about being a part of it. It is not all gloom and doom, quite the contrary.

Race
 

Race

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We do not need reform in this country. We need Aquarists that are educated and care about what they put into their tanks.

Marty Smith and I personally have spent over one million dollars ( of our OWN money ) developing an aquaculture facility run by people that care-- which supplies livestock to a hobby that cares. Therein is how I have made a small but important contribution.

I do not agree that the hobby does not care, it simply needs to learn and evolve. I am doing my part to educate and help both in terms of time and money spent. I might add here that I do not derive one penny of income off the selling of livestock, I simply enjoy the educational process and challenge.

Race
 

PeterIMA

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Race, I agree with your last posting. Things are not all gloom and doom. The industry faces a bright future with some minor reform of collection, transport practices, and with a shift to mariculture. My hope is that some of this should be done in the countries where the organisms (be they fish, corals, clams, or live rock etc) naturally occur.

Peter Rubec

Peter Rubec
 

Race

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Peter, I agree with your statement as well.

My position is that there is work to be done domestically and overseas, with equal importance. My focus has been here within the domestic trade. I applaude those that drive the efforts elswhere as they are needed.

Thanks, Race
 

Race

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Mike,
I hold no personal grudges against anyone. Never have, never will. It would be wrong though to not face all the obstacles within our trade whether they be human, financial, or otherwise. For improvement to occur we must identify the problems and overcome them.

Thanks, Race

Nice to hear and chat with you guys. I will be heading to Michigan State University for some work there so will be short of responses in the near term.
 
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So Race, your "cancer" comment about a certain person isn't a presonal grudge? Come on, I was born at night, but not last night ;)
 
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GreshamH":2pnsfbur said:
So Race, your "cancer" comment about a certain person isn't a presonal grudge? Come on, I was born at night, but not last night ;)

i think race might be unaware of what high hopes certain individuals initially had when mac first started, of what mac would/could accomplish-without them being aware of the lies and scare tactics they used on a gullible (large) segment of the industry (gullible NOT meaning anything negative-lines/lies were fed to folks who had no reason/indication to NOT believe them)

ALL of the historical context, bitterness, and finger pointing is entirely appropo, in the vein of 'he who forgets the past, is condemned to repeat it ;)
 

Race

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Vitz,
I never said to forget the past, quite the contrary. We should learn from the past mistakes and develop a plan that can do better. Some of the best ideas rise from a pile of ashes.

MAC to date has failed to develop into it's intended entitity. For those that criticize and know the answers,--- I merely say, "pony up the money and get the job done". Stop talking about it and get to work. If you can't or won't then simply let MAC be.

For me, I am just going to do as I please with or without the MAC. I will not bash them but rather hope that they can find their way.

Gresham,
From much discussion I speak for the majority of the industry, not myself personally. No personal grudges. If you choose to believe otherwise, so be it.
 

naesco

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mkirda":1kw0o3z3 said:
Race":1kw0o3z3 said:
There seem to be certain individuals on this forum, one in particular, who constantly attacks yet offers no solutions. That in itself has undermined progress and is the reason that the domestic industry is in turmoil. A cancer if you will.

The industry has no union of which the failed AMDA is proof. Personally, I have chosen a different path, a lonely one, and domestic change will simply take more time. It is happening and will continue. Once we pull together here then we can make progress there. It will not happen before.

Race

There is no one person here that can affect the entire industry, Race. Please leave personal grudges out of this.

Very enlightening response in the next paragraph though. If the Flips solve their problems on their own and offer us a good variety of non-cyanide caught fish, what reforms are we needing here? And even more pressing would be WHY?

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Why you ask? Because if the PI clean up their cyanide act the fish will cost more. Training, policing etc.
Industry than will look to other sources for cheap cyanide caught fish like Indonesia and Vietnam, and the whole cyanide cartel in the US and the PI will move there.
That is why you need a US ban on the import of cyanide caught fish and serious prosecution and imprisonment of those who violate the law.
Than and only than will net caught fish become a reality.
Its your industry that is doing itself in.
 

Race

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Naesco is correct. If we as a trade cannot educate and adjust our demand then the government will and should do it for us. I know from working with thousands of end users that they are getting more aware and are looking for alternatives. Aquaculture is only a partial answer.

I will also state from experience, my customers are willing to pay more for a better product. They do it every day in Kevin's now famous, Diver's Den. His customers have learned what many have said all along---you get what you pay for. A fish and coral is not simply a fish and coral. There is the good, the bad. and the ugly--- and all are available to the trade.

Perhaps there is a reason that Kevin's Conference and Frag Swap is now reportedly about three times larger than the last IMAC.

As naesco was claiming the process should begin with the demand, not the supply. In most other industries that is how things work. The demand drives the supply. Of course both will need to improve. His statements are exactly why I have focused most of my efforts right here at home. I do not get any island vacations out of it but then it's all about work for me anyway.

I know that the US demand is now at a higher level ( in terms of education and desire for a quality, higher priced product ) than when Kevin and I started. We will not take all the credit but we should get a little for our educational and conscientious efforts. Just a little.

I am excited about the trade and here at home it is headed in the right direction, with or without MAC. Success will not be overnight as some seem to think. Business rarely works that way.

I am proud of the hobby and will stand by it---------- Race
 

PeterIMA

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Race, It is unfortunate that at least some (those from Indo and PI) of the wild caught fish you sell on your web site were probably caught with cyanide.

Peter Rubec
 
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naesco":2y1mx1ee said:
mkirda":2y1mx1ee said:
Race":2y1mx1ee said:
There seem to be certain individuals on this forum, one in particular, who constantly attacks yet offers no solutions. That in itself has undermined progress and is the reason that the domestic industry is in turmoil. A cancer if you will.

The industry has no union of which the failed AMDA is proof. Personally, I have chosen a different path, a lonely one, and domestic change will simply take more time. It is happening and will continue. Once we pull together here then we can make progress there. It will not happen before.

Race

There is no one person here that can affect the entire industry, Race. Please leave personal grudges out of this.

Very enlightening response in the next paragraph though. If the Flips solve their problems on their own and offer us a good variety of non-cyanide caught fish, what reforms are we needing here? And even more pressing would be WHY?

Regards.
Mike Kirda

Why you ask? Because if the PI clean up their cyanide act the fish will cost more. Training, policing etc.
Industry than will look to other sources for cheap cyanide caught fish like Indonesia and Vietnam, and the whole cyanide cartel in the US and the PI will move there.
That is why you need a US ban on the import of cyanide caught fish and serious prosecution and imprisonment of those who violate the law.
Than and only than will net caught fish become a reality.
Its your industry that is doing itself in.

Wayne, can you expain to me the species found in both PI AND Vietnam and why Vietnam could be an alternatize to PI? Can you also explain to me how the higher freight rate from Vietnam can surpass PI's lower freight rate. How about the fact the Vietnam fish LAND HARD. I've encountered numerous near perfect PI shipments, yet I have never recieved a Vietnam shipment with less then 20% DOA. While it's easy to airm chair quarterback this issue as you have, it's far different then the beast you work in. I don't tread on issues such as timber use, land use, etc, as I have no real world experience in them. I do have a what I feel as major experience in the wholesale world and I do feel I'm eduacated enought to hang with the big dogs so to speak.

Not to mention, WHAT ABOUT CANADA? You saying your country is only buying clean product, that laws are in place to ban all cyanide caught fish and the laws are strictly enforced? What a hypicritical view you have taken on this issue.
 

Race

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Peter,
There is no question that fish from cyanide areas enter this country. My job is to work within the current FW laws, educate the trade, and develop quality supply lines. All of this minimizes but does not eliminate the cyanide trade. To me this is a domestic step in the correct direction.

The magnitude of the problem is too great for any one entity to solve. I am doing the best that I am capable in the environment in which I work.

Like I stated before, I believe that the hobby is viable and does care. I will stand by the aquarist and do what I can to help. I feel good about that even though there is a possibility that a few cyanide fish have passed through my hands. Today, I have no way to supply the trade and prevent it with a 100% guarantee.

I am doing my best to keep it to a minimum and that is good enough for me. I am not one to care what others in the industry think. If they can better supply the current trade ------- they should do it.

I am heading to the University so this is my last post for a least several weeks. Thanks, Race
 
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Because if the PI clean up their cyanide act the fish will cost more



a complete fallacy and a proof of a misunderstanding/ignorance of the entire issue:

if more fish become available in the wild due to INCREASED HABITAT AVAILABILITY then the price of fish will actually go DOWN-fishermen will have to travel less, spend less time to get to their sources, as well. fewer fish will die in transport/holding, and upon arrival-quality will go up, for what is basically a CHEAPER costing stock! :idea:

it does not cost more to catch fish without juice-once trained, a diver can easily meet or exceed catch rates of juicers-this has been proven in the field


however-cyanide is now not the major threat to the habitat, and this whole argument will be moot soon, as reefs are dying and disappearing at quite the fast rate globally-due to pollution, global warming, etc etc

the use of cyanide is mainly one of coersion by criminals/thugs and shortsighted/short term mispercieved economics on behalf of the LOCAL trade leaders/operators, and unless the LOCAL gov'ts/industry get on the ball, NOTHING will ever get 'fixed'.period.

Naesco is correct. If we as a trade cannot educate and adjust our demand then the government will and should do it for us



nope.sorry. won't happen-even as a reef conservation issue-it's a teeny drop in the bucket compared to the other pressures existing that are/will be a higher priority for gov't to get involved in

this is exactly the line that was used by mac to scare the industry and pressure them to join the bandwagon (see the mac files on fenner's site, or ask any amda member who was involved in the discussions back then) ;)-and IT WAS EVEN THEN A COMPLETELY BOGUS SCARE TACTIC ;)



gov't doesn't even get involved in banning suv production-would they even concern themselves with such a marginal side issue like the mo hobby/industry ? :lol:

consumers will not, as a whole, educate themselves or care-the majority of consumers are not true hobbyists-they are aquarium keepers whos driving purchase motivation is price-even the internet boards will attest to this - 'hobbyists' are more concerned with price, as a group, than with how their stock is caught-most prefer to remain completely ignorant on the issue-much the same way most don't realize that tomatoes do not come from a supermarket ;)

(group buys, anyone ? :P )

while mitigating losses after import arrival IS important (and also my pov/practice) it ultimately does not reduce demand presure on the source by much, or enough to make a difference on the status at the source as a whole-for the hobby's actually increasing at a steady rate yearly, (1-3%, if i'm not mistaken) and most entry level consumers are purely/completely ignorant of the whole deal, much like the staus quo.

why SHOULD gov't take symbolic action that will ruin the livelihood of thousands here and abroad, for what is now more a cosmetic issue that will NOT save the reefs from the true, more major, and more pressing issues facing them presently? a reef that doesn't exist is certainly one you can claim is cyanide free, but it doesn't do anyone any actual good, heh.

just some food for thought :)
 
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Race":21bkr13w said:
Gresham,
From much discussion I speak for the majority of the industry, not myself personally. No personal grudges. If you choose to believe otherwise, so be it.

lorax.jpg

So your Dr Suess now? You speak for the trees as well? Your allies are just that. You think they'd say something different to a 500 pound gorilla? (not calling you a gorilla, but rather saying your a BIG buyer with pull ;) ) If you question where I am coming from, ask Kevin. He knows my views. While I do dislike some things this certain person has said and sometimes his style of posting, I do not discount what he has done and I would never have the nerve to call him a cancer!

This "one person" you speak of has offerred far more then 99% of this industry. I have seen multiple plans and have seen mulitple attempts be squashed by certain NGO's that would have helped in many ways. Guess who penned them? I know no other that has committed so much of his life to the issue, yet you call him a cancer? Are you now an Board Certified Oncologist as well?
 
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It would be great if one day one of these discussions didn't drop to the level of a Jr High soap opera - it takes away from any helpful discussion, and makes people who are interested in helping run away.
 

naesco

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GreshamH":31lv29f9 said:
Race":31lv29f9 said:
Gresham,
From much discussion I speak for the majority of the industry, not myself personally. No personal grudges. If you choose to believe otherwise, so be it.

lorax.jpg

So your Dr Suess now? You speak for the trees as well? Your allies are just that. You think they'd say something different to a 500 pound gorilla? (not calling you a gorilla, but rather saying your a BIG buyer with pull ;) ) If you question where I am coming from, ask Kevin. He knows my views. While I do dislike some things this certain person has said and sometimes his style of posting, I do not discount what he has done and I would never have the nerve to call him a cancer!

This "one person" you speak of has offerred far more then 99% of this industry. I have seen multiple plans and have seen mulitple attempts be squashed by certain NGO's that would have helped in many ways. Guess who penned them? I know no other that has committed so much of his life to the issue, yet you call him a cancer? Are you now an Board Certified Oncologist as well?

Is this post really necessary?
There is some valuable discussion here and you come in with this.
If you can't say anything nice don't post anything at all.
 
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I see my humor was missed by most and I do apologize to Race if he viewed them as Thales and wayne have. No disrespect was intended. Dr Seuss had views far ahead of his times. His books, Especially the one I posted are VERY relevant to the conversation in more then one way.

Race posted he was speaking for "majority" of the trade, thus my connection to the Lorax who claimed to speak for the trees. Having talked to a lot of the industry myself and none being vendors I buy from, the views I have heard differ then those that have been offerred to one of the largest buyers in the market.

Thales-

Calling some one a cancer of course will ingite a thread. Just because he left the name out does not mean it's not directed at some one. I'm sorry if you don't see that or choose not to. Had he not gone there, do you really think I would have had something to follow? His comments were not needed to make his point, yet is repeated them again as a defense to his first round.

Wayne-

you answerred my questions yet? For the conversations sake, can you take a stab at least one of them? How does PI and Vietnam relate to each other in terms of fish supply, cross species supply, freight rate, economy of scale, available flights, etc? How about how the fact Vietnam is far more in the cross hairs of US F & W S then PI in regards to CITES issues? Vietnam has been shut down more then once, how many times has PI been not allowed to ship to the US?
 
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