Another bombshell ; high level firing at MAC

[mark@mac]

Reformmac wants to do just that.
Reformmac wants your comments.



We believe that the initial intentions and plans for MAC were sound. That is MAC as a small organization that serves all the stakeholders of the industry.



The MAC Board is frustrated at the secrecy of how the CEO runs things. It is perhaps NOT the time for the MAC Board to resign but rather for them to unite in the reforming of MAC. They should be also be allowed to approach USAID and GEF in an attempt revise these projects so that they will be substantially more effective.



If REFORMED we believe that we have 12 months to get it right. We agree with some of what Steve says in that we need enlightened, pro action and pro-fisherman leadership but also a leadership that cares about the industry and not one that sees it as just another grant to spend.



This forum has talked a lot about the removal of Paul Holthus, Reef Check and CCIF from MAC in the last few weeks and the need for proper net training. So at this time, we would seek your opinion on a number issues that we would like to take one at a time.



The first issue being Resource Assessment.



At the moment Reef Check have set up a system that costs each collection area in the Philippines and Indonesia $3000 US per year to undertake resource assessments per collection area. This work has to be undertaken to the MAQTRAC protocol and must be by Reef Check Scientists. These costs are totally unaffordable and enables Reef Check (a known anti-aquarium trade organisation) to control access to MAC certification for the trade. While this appears to be good for the long term sustainability of Reef Check, it is not necessarily so for the coral reefs and certainly does not build local resource assessment capacity for the long term.



We at Reformmac believe that resource assessment is important but that the local communities, universities, local NGO’s and collectors should play a major role in resource assessment. This would significantly reduce the cost to them.



We would like your comments on this issue at this time please.

 

[clarionreef]

Looking to get more involved with Reef Check and still have a fun and relaxing dive vacation? Then join us for the first Reef Check EcoExpediton of 2006 to Grand Cayman Island, April 1-8.

We're running this trip in conjunction with our friends at Reef Seekers in Beverly Hills, so this will combine recreational diving with actual scientific data collection at one of the most popular dive spots in the world. Prior to the trip, we'll have a complete Reef Check training in Los Angeles where you'll learn fish identification and monitoring techniques to survey the ocean life around Grand Cayman.

Once we reach our accommodations at world-famous Sunset House, the general plan will be for two recreational boat dives each day to some of Cayman's best spots: Eden Rock, Bonnie's Arch, Hepp's Pipeline, Eagle Ray Pass, Ghost Mountain, and - of course - Stingray City.

The price for this fantastic Reef Check EcoExpedition is only US $2995 per person and includes airfare & airport transfers, diving, accommodations, daily breakfast, and crew tip. This package also includes the pre-trip training in Reef Check EcoMonitoring techniques and all training materials. Plus, we'll conduct daily seminars while in Cayman so you can learn more about what's really happening on the reef right before your very eyes. It's going to be a great trip that you don't want to miss.

Hurry, space is limited. Sign up today by contacting Reef Seekers at 310-652-4990 or Email: [email protected]
Or call Chris Knight at Reef Check for more information at 310-230-2371, Email: [email protected]

Click Here to see Partner EcoExpeditions to other exciting destinations.

PS.
SO RICHER FOLKS PAY TO PLAY AT SURVEYING REEFS AND THIS TOURIST ACTIVITY IS WHAT WE WILL DEPEND ON TO DETERMINE SUSTAINABILITY ON PHILIPPINE REEFS?
The cultural bias alone disqualifies them as a serious player in this.
Students from America would generally find that most pretty places should be left alone. They are well fed...so whats the problem?
Futhermore; the Philippines graduates hundreds of students yearly in the marine sciences and has dozens of home grown people who can lead and perform survey work.
REEFCHECK is not qualified to do this work seriously...and there are local entities that are.
Their greatest achievement is to earn a place at the MAMTI gravy train buffet table run by white folks...for white folks.
This stuff is too serious to leave to Dive industry travel agents.
Sincerely, Steve
PS No wonder they didn't want to show up on the reform panel in Las Vegas and appear with Andy Bruckner of the USCRTF and answer questions as to the scientific validity of their tourist survey swims in the Philippines used to anchor MAC certification.

 

[dizzy]

Reformmac wants to do just that.
Reformmac wants your comments.

If REFORMED we believe that we have 12 months to get it right. We agree with some of what Steve says in that we need enlightened, pro action and pro-fisherman leadership but also a leadership that cares about the industry and not one that sees it as just another grant to spend.

Mark,
I don't think most of us know enough about what has really gone on to be able to make suggestions. I think a good honest accounting of the events would be helpful. I'm really curious as to exactly why they fired you. I would also like to know why they fired Dave Vossler. I have always felt uneasy about MAC because of all the secrecy. I would like to see Svein Fossa hired as Executive Director.
Mitch

PS
What happens if it isn't fixed in 12 months?

 

[mark@mac]

Mitch,

I'm really curious as to WHY they fired me too.... May be because I ALWAYS STRONGLY voiced my opinion on everything once I settled in the Philippines. That occurred frequently and I often challenged some of the newer staff's decisions.

One thing I wan't to make perfectly clear:

I have worked very closely with several Philippino marine biologists and other staff members of Reef Check. From the Senior Scientist on down these are GREAT people and devoted to coral reef preservation as well as trying to help with the plight of the poor, exploited Philippino fisherfolk.

I simply don't agree with the way mamti is being run.

I do think your suggestion is a fine one! I respect Svien Fossa and bet he would be good.

With the money available and good management it should only take 12 months to get net caught fish fromseveral groups of trained and converted cyanide fisherman.

 

[clarionreef]

Svien would be great.
His biggest flaw is the same as everyone elses; hes politically naive.
He believed that the MAC mission as run by Holthus could succeed.
That showed poor judgement...but can be forgiven w/ time as most were also fooled.
Now that everyone accepts that the critics were correct, we can imagine a group where people can be their true selves instead of the one they played to appease Holthus.
Steve
.
.

 

[clarionreef]

danieldm wrote:
I come from the corporate world where you deliver results, or you deliver pizzas the next week.

That...should be a new MAC credo...if there will ever be a new MAC.
It should apply to the staff at all levels...but first and foremost, it applies to the director .
Command responsiblity does not mean a failing project is only the fault of underlings. First and foremost its the boss thats on trial..
Steve

 

[danieldm]

New 300g Dream Tank: $6850

Weeklong Diving Trip to Fiji: $14700

Being Quoted By Steve Robinson: Priceless

 

[Anonymous]

Looking to get more involved with Reef Check and still have a fun and relaxing dive vacation? Then join us for the first Reef Check EcoExpediton of 2006 to Grand Cayman Island, April 1-8.

We're running this trip in conjunction with our friends at Reef Seekers in Beverly Hills, so this will combine recreational diving with actual scientific data collection at one of the most popular dive spots in the world. Prior to the trip, we'll have a complete Reef Check training in Los Angeles where you'll learn fish identification and monitoring techniques to survey the ocean life around Grand Cayman.

Once we reach our accommodations at world-famous Sunset House, the general plan will be for two recreational boat dives each day to some of Cayman's best spots: Eden Rock, Bonnie's Arch, Hepp's Pipeline, Eagle Ray Pass, Ghost Mountain, and - of course - Stingray City.

The price for this fantastic Reef Check EcoExpedition is only US $2995 per person and includes airfare & airport transfers, diving, accommodations, daily breakfast, and crew tip. This package also includes the pre-trip training in Reef Check EcoMonitoring techniques and all training materials. Plus, we'll conduct daily seminars while in Cayman so you can learn more about what's really happening on the reef right before your very eyes. It's going to be a great trip that you don't want to miss.

Hurry, space is limited. Sign up today by contacting Reef Seekers at 310-652-4990 or Email: [email protected]
Or call Chris Knight at Reef Check for more information at 310-230-2371, Email: [email protected]

Click Here to see Partner EcoExpeditions to other exciting destinations.

PS.
SO RICHER FOLKS PAY TO PLAY AT SURVEYING REEFS AND THIS TOURIST ACTIVITY IS WHAT WE WILL DEPEND ON TO DETERMINE SUSTAINABILITY ON PHILIPPINE REEFS?
The cultural bias alone disqualifies them as a serious player in this.
Students from America would generally find that most pretty places should be left alone. They are well fed...so whats the problem?
Futhermore; the Philippines graduates hundreds of students yearly in the marine sciences and has dozens of home grown people who can lead and perform survey work.
REEFCHECK is not qualified to do this work seriously...and there are local entities that are.
Their greatest achievement is to earn a place at the MAMTI gravy train buffet table run by white folks...for white folks.
This stuff is too serious to leave to Dive industry travel agents.
Sincerely, Steve
PS No wonder they didn't want to show up on the reform panel in Las Vegas and appear with Andy Bruckner of the USCRTF and answer questions as to the scientific validity of their tourist survey swims in the Philippines used to anchor MAC certification.

Steve, do you think that Grand Cayman is in the Philippines? If not, I am not sure of the point you are making.
Toruist surveys have been very helpful and valid in ornothology and I can see no reason why they wouldn't be equally so on the reef.
I don't see why we should disdain anyone who wants to do this kind of work - and pay for the pleasure of doing it.

 

[dizzy]

Taking wealthy tourists to the best dive spots to do fish counts is going to prove what? It is a creative way to make money though.

 

[PeterIMA]

"The movement Reef Check have set up a system that costs each collection area in the Philippines and Indonesia $3000 US per year to undertake resource assessments per collection area. This work has to be undertaken to the MAQTRAC protocol and must be by Reef Check Scientists. These costs are totally unaffordable and enables Reef Check (a known anti-aquarium trade organisation) to control access to MAC certification for the trade. While this appears to be good for the long term sustainability of Reef Check, it is not necessarily so for the coral reefs and certainly does not build local resource assessment capacity for the long term."

"We at Reformmac believe that resource assessment is important but that the local communities, universities, local NGO?s and collectors should play a major role in resource assessment. This would significantly reduce the cost to them."



Mark, I completely agree with you about the need for resource surveys by Filipinos involving the fishers. These were some of the main points that Ferdinand Cruz and I presented at MO06 in Las Vegas on February 15th. Many people are not aware that Ferdinand developed an underwater survey manual (with funding from USAID) that was used as part of the MAC CAMP program during 2002.

Ferdinand worked in four areas (Palauig, Bagac, Busuanga, and Coron) and taught the fishermen how to do underwater fish counts and to assess the status of the coral reefs using scientifically acceptable methods. These results are in the CAMP documents prepared by the fisheremen and Ferdinand, that I obtained from Ferdinand. The MAC rejected all of the work that Ferdinand had done, and alienated over 200 collectors (who hate the MAC for breaking their promises and not certifying them).

If the reefs are to be protected and restored it must involve the fishers and MAF collectors in the local communities, not foreigners from ReefCheck. It also has to be cost effective. It needs to be tied to a program wherin the collectors are also given entreprise trainings that include book keeping, and how to better handle and market their fish. Hence, economic incentives are tied to a program of producing better quality fishes that survive in export facilities and justify the exporters paying the collectors more for their fish. The economic incentives keep the collectors using nets. Ferdinand demonstrated these programs worked.

His current program also includes mariculture of marine fishes either by breeding the fish and rearing them from eggs or rearing the fish from larvae harvested off the reefs. He is still working with the collectors to provide them with net-trainings, enterprise trainings, and linking them to responsible buyers willing to pay more for quality net-caught fish. So, despite the fact that he has much less funding than the MAC or ReefCheck, he has the respect of the collectors and is succeeding, where MAC and ReefCheck have failed.

Ferdinand is also providing trainings in holding and transport methods. He has implemented workable standards that can be used both in the villages and at export facilities.

Peter Rubec

 

[Jaime Baquero]

Reformmac wants to do just that.
Reformmac wants your comments.



We believe that the initial intentions and plans for MAC were sound. That is MAC as a small organization that serves all the stakeholders of the industry.



The MAC Board is frustrated at the secrecy of how the CEO runs things. It is perhaps NOT the time for the MAC Board to resign but rather for them to unite in the reforming of MAC. They should be also be allowed to approach USAID and GEF in an attempt revise these projects so that they will be substantially more effective.



If REFORMED we believe that we have 12 months to get it right. We agree with some of what Steve says in that we need enlightened, pro action and pro-fisherman leadership but also a leadership that cares about the industry and not one that sees it as just another grant to spend.



This forum has talked a lot about the removal of Paul Holthus, Reef Check and CCIF from MAC in the last few weeks and the need for proper net training. So at this time, we would seek your opinion on a number issues that we would like to take one at a time.



The first issue being Resource Assessment.



At the moment Reef Check have set up a system that costs each collection area in the Philippines and Indonesia $3000 US per year to undertake resource assessments per collection area. This work has to be undertaken to the MAQTRAC protocol and must be by Reef Check Scientists. These costs are totally unaffordable and enables Reef Check (a known anti-aquarium trade organisation) to control access to MAC certification for the trade. While this appears to be good for the long term sustainability of Reef Check, it is not necessarily so for the coral reefs and certainly does not build local resource assessment capacity for the long term.



We at Reformmac believe that resource assessment is important but that the local communities, universities, local NGO’s and collectors should play a major role in resource assessment. This would significantly reduce the cost to them.



We would like your comments on this issue at this time please.

Marc,

I have stated many times that the Filipino central government participation is a must to tackle the many issues related to the
marine ornamentals trade. In fact, I think that its lack of commitment and willingness, are in part, the answer to why things do not move forward in the Philippines. As an example we see that cyanide is getting
very easy in the wrong hands due to the lack of control from the government.

The major role conducting the resource assessment should be on the shoulders of the central government, the other groups you mentioned could help.

It is the filipino government responsibility to set up the CDT stations and also its responsibility to regulate the trade and enforce the law. These must be in place to see a concrete change in the Philippines.

 

[Anonymous]

Looking to get more involved with Reef Check and still have a fun and relaxing dive vacation? Then join us for the first Reef Check EcoExpediton of 2006 to Grand Cayman Island, April 1-8.

We're running this trip in conjunction with our friends at Reef Seekers in Beverly Hills, so this will combine recreational diving with actual scientific data collection at one of the most popular dive spots in the world. Prior to the trip, we'll have a complete Reef Check training in Los Angeles where you'll learn fish identification and monitoring techniques to survey the ocean life around Grand Cayman.

Once we reach our accommodations at world-famous Sunset House, the general plan will be for two recreational boat dives each day to some of Cayman's best spots: Eden Rock, Bonnie's Arch, Hepp's Pipeline, Eagle Ray Pass, Ghost Mountain, and - of course - Stingray City.

The price for this fantastic Reef Check EcoExpedition is only US $2995 per person and includes airfare & airport transfers, diving, accommodations, daily breakfast, and crew tip. This package also includes the pre-trip training in Reef Check EcoMonitoring techniques and all training materials. Plus, we'll conduct daily seminars while in Cayman so you can learn more about what's really happening on the reef right before your very eyes. It's going to be a great trip that you don't want to miss.

Hurry, space is limited. Sign up today by contacting Reef Seekers at 310-652-4990 or Email: [email protected]
Or call Chris Knight at Reef Check for more information at 310-230-2371, Email: [email protected]

Click Here to see Partner EcoExpeditions to other exciting destinations.

PS.
SO RICHER FOLKS PAY TO PLAY AT SURVEYING REEFS AND THIS TOURIST ACTIVITY IS WHAT WE WILL DEPEND ON TO DETERMINE SUSTAINABILITY ON PHILIPPINE REEFS?
The cultural bias alone disqualifies them as a serious player in this.
Students from America would generally find that most pretty places should be left alone. They are well fed...so whats the problem?
Futhermore; the Philippines graduates hundreds of students yearly in the marine sciences and has dozens of home grown people who can lead and perform survey work.
REEFCHECK is not qualified to do this work seriously...and there are local entities that are.
Their greatest achievement is to earn a place at the MAMTI gravy train buffet table run by white folks...for white folks.
This stuff is too serious to leave to Dive industry travel agents.
Sincerely, Steve
PS No wonder they didn't want to show up on the reform panel in Las Vegas and appear with Andy Bruckner of the USCRTF and answer questions as to the scientific validity of their tourist survey swims in the Philippines used to anchor MAC certification.

Steve, do you think that Grand Cayman is in the Philippines? If not, I am not sure of the point you are making.
Toruist surveys have been very helpful and valid in ornothology and I can see no reason why they wouldn't be equally so on the reef.
I don't see why we should disdain anyone who wants to do this kind of work - and pay for the pleasure of doing it.

I'd agree, if I hadn't heard how poor some of the counts have been. Rich, they're given a plaque with a few fish, not the hundreds there are on the reef. Sure, "key species", but hey, they didn't see any nocturnal fish (don't dive at night) so, there's none there. They were captivated by the butterflies, but missed the secrective fish.

This kind of thing really should be done by professional collectors, people that know the fish/area, trained proessionals :?

 

[sdcfish]

I have to say that this discussion and comments here are very discouraging. Pointing fingers at organizations that are MAKING differences and have goals that are way beyond just fixing the problems that lie in the Philipines and Indonesia.

ReefCheck is about global reef monitoring....not just about us and the aquarium industry.

If you go to the website for Reefcheck, you will see their mission statement. It has formed VOLUNTEER groups all over the world where there are coral reefs.

I think it's sad that there are people here that take the efforts and successes so lightly and are so quick to judge without taking the personal time to find out what these groups are really about.

I don't really see the point in debating with nonsense and irrationality. Change takes time....the time is now! There are more efforts to work in these areas you all feel so passionate about, but yet you continue to try and destruct what you are all trying to acheive.

I agree with Race Foster that these comments made here are far more destructive than you would think.......it's a real shame that nothing here will become constructive.

On the brink of hoplessness with this forum,

Eric

 

[Anonymous]

Eric, your right, I've never seen Reefcheck in action personally. I however have had several contacts with people that have great knowledge of the very area's Reefcheck has gone. Let's just say the sciencetists I've spoken to, don't agree with Reefcheck's assessments.

The stories that have been told of outsider assessments of areas is flooring. Mainly Mexico, but some PI stuff as well.

 

[clarionreef]

People,
ASSESSMENTS BY TOURIST ORIENTED PEOPLE....
tend to find tourist oriented fishes in their transect counts and "classic, high profile fishes" at that.
Do you think that reefcheck survey counts find hectors gobies, sleepers, trimmas, eviotas, dragon gobies and clown gobies?
Of course they are not all there is to surveying, but missing huge inventories on the reefs and inventories of rising importance to the reef trade is missing a huge point of the surveys.
Are these species sustainable? Who knows if you're not capable of counting them!?
If you're counting the so called "indicator species", ie. chaetodons and angels....then you're looking for something the trade no longer is!
Finding a lack of these classic species means what exactly? That the fisherfolk must now sit and weave baskets?
The "drive-by" ....cursory, foreign assessments of other peoples reefs will not find what there is for the locals to live on...it has its own criteria for that.
Regardless of the shifting baselines in area after area, sticking with a standard, classic formula from elsewhere will find that everyone must now leave the pool and stop working for a living in the sea.

MAC and Reefcheck has provided the template that the Mexican biologists have used in Baja and its a classic joke down there. Why do you think the permit process there is so slow and messed up?
The methodology is this;
A stated noble purpose run by city people, oceanic lightweights and functional incompetents that cannot stay in the water long enough to understand anything...count anything and learn anything from the locals.
The biologists following their manuals are the laughing stock of fishing villages as they simply cannot keep up with any local diver or keep down their food in the boat.
After a few years of surveys that found a fraction of the fishes that exist on the reefs, we have been successful in displacing them with our own far more competent local people followed by monitors sent by the government.
Now, thanks goodness, we may be on again very soon.
These foreign created templates for resource conservation in Baja have ruined several tropical fishing villages livlihoods and sent them into the killing of turtles, groupers, snappers, abalone, scallops and the rest to survive.
[ One of our best tropical fish divers died last year collecting deepwater scallops.]
The only place left where this methodology has any clout [ a TNC supported national park] has no fish collectors anymore....which may well be the point after all.
It has poor fishermen, they're just not allowed to work.
Steve

 

[clarionreef]

Eric,
Please...."Pointing fingers at organizations that are MAKING differences"...?

Look,
Surveying used reefs is a component of the mission, not the mission itself.
The greatest difference they have made is in taking over the MAC you supported and getting everyone canned! Is that not obvious?
What do they do? They survey. OK...so now the MAC focus will become more of a survey for sustainability one....and not bookkeeping one?

How bout a training, teaching and conversion one that the ex-MACs want?
If its Bookeeping or city people surveying.....the divers still don't get converted, the bad image from cyanide fishing remains, the handling doesn't improve and the reefs and the fisherman get poorer as the NGOs get richer.
Of course accurate surveying is important;
Real surveying with regards to local species strengths, local collecting dispositions and local involvement.
But if the definition of sustainability is the ideal one...then its all over.

What none of these groups ever understood is that if we just do the simpler...and cheaper thing and employ commercial and competent Filipino teams to train their own...then in a single year the cyanide habit can be broken in most of the country and the reefs will be returning to greater productivity while your guys are still out surveying!

The MAC/REEFCHECK way costs far too much and far more then simply training a thousand fisers.....which would break the back of the cyanide tradition and save habitat which would allow more reef to survey and more fish to count.
Your priorities are police tools and punitive ones...not proactive and livlihood giving ones!
Les Village areas have been cyanide free for half the term of MAC and are in far better shape now....and getting better every year.
Surveys there? Sure. To count the good news!

Reefcheck knows nothing about training and changing fisherman to do whats right for their own best interests.
What do they know about making fisherman better handlers of livestock?Wheres the action component with this group?
Its just data collection that will never be used anyway as no city council or fishery office will agree to throw every fisherman out of the water!
Reefcheck and MAC are not the law. Not the local law or the federal one.
They are there for themselves and have made enemies with the very land they claim to serve!
The old Director Sarmiento has a new orientation now and has questioned the wisdom of so many foreign groups trying to run his countries affairs.
[Thanks to MACs firing of their last country director]
Selling the mission to Reefcheck may have seemed a coup for Reefcheck...but I doubt they will enjoy it for long.
Reefcheck may have been successful in some political deal or powerplay we hardly know about ....but it has just defined the MAC mission as adrift and drifting futher away.
This thing has more plot twists then ...then....I gotta go back to 24.
Steve

 

[Anonymous]

I have to say that this discussion and comments here are very discouraging. Pointing fingers at organizations that are MAKING differences and have goals that are way beyond just fixing the problems that lie in the Philipines and Indonesia.

ReefCheck is about global reef monitoring....not just about us and the aquarium industry.

If you go to the website for Reefcheck, you will see their mission statement. It has formed VOLUNTEER groups all over the world where there are coral reefs.

I think it's sad that there are people here that take the efforts and successes so lightly and are so quick to judge without taking the personal time to find out what these groups are really about.

I don't really see the point in debating with nonsense and irrationality. Change takes time....the time is now! There are more efforts to work in these areas you all feel so passionate about, but yet you continue to try and destruct what you are all trying to acheive.

I agree with Race Foster that these comments made here are far more destructive than you would think.......it's a real shame that nothing here will become constructive.

On the brink of hoplessness with this forum,

Eric

I agree with you 100% Eric.
I think we have to stop demonizing groups that are trying to make a difference even if we don't agree 100% with what they are doing. I feel that in this forum we all too often tear others down instead of remembing the larger idea of working together in making the industry and the hobby better. It isn't about 'me', it is about encouraging everyone to do everything they can to help - and bashing people who are making and effort only makes it more likely that the next person won't feel encoraged to even bother.

I think this forum spends too much time complaining about what others do and not enough time developing solutions.

Sure it would be better done by scientists, but if there aren't funds to pay them to do it, charging people to make a dent in the issue and bring more awareness to the issues seems like a good thing. Instead of complaining about how badly people who are trying are doing, I think our time would be better spent helping them do a better job.

These types of projects take money and logistics and continual follow through, and I don't see any way for them to happen without some kind of backing organization. Continually ripping organizations down because they are organizations seems like a waste of time - especially if there isn't an alternatitive plan on the table.

BTW, I am still pretty sure that Cayman isn't in PI. :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

What none of these groups ever understood is that if we just do the simpler...and cheaper thing and employ commercial and competent Filipino teams to train their own...then in a single year the cyanide habit can be broken in most of the country and the reefs will be returning to greater productivity while your guys are still out surveying!

I think if you put your efforts into creating a group to do what you believe is the right/better thing, we could stop having this conversation and instead congradulate each other on what a great thing we have help to accomplish.

 

[Anonymous]

BTW, I am not sure having professional collectors survey the fish popluations they will be collecting from will give us accurate results. In a sense that seems like having the fox to guard the henhouse.

 

[dizzy]

BTW, I am not sure having professional collectors survey the fish popluations they will be collecting from will give us accurate results. In a sense that seems like having the fox to guard the henhouse.

Look Righty if you can't trust the people that own the resource enough to help with the surveys, how will you ever be able to have confidence in an honor based certification system?