AMDA response to Race Foster

[SavetheReefs]

Len do you not read these threads well let me quote our buddy foster

We do not keep a physical office in L.A

So who is doing the picking sorting packing and shipping of fish?

And Len you say

fyi: it's not just an aquaculture facility

But our buddy foster says

Please note our aquacultured corals and Diver's Den aquatic life will ship separately from our facility in Rhinelander, Wisconsin.

So Len are you saying foster is secretly shipping other things he does not want the public to know about?

Please explain.

I am going to go out on a limb and share something with the board. I am way to dumb to fabricate this stuff, all I do is repost quotes and information as support to what I say. I wish this were not true so I could make some cool stories up, but I got shorted a chromosone or 2. :wink:

STR

 

[nanocat]

Ummm, build a bridge and get over it? :roll:

No one really cares if his advertising is embellished. We can all read, but we aren't as obsessed with Race's website as you seem to be.

There are bigger things to object to in the F&S business model than their ad copy :lol:

 

[SavetheReefs]

Cat I am only responding to other posters claims. If you would have took the time to read the thread you would have read that.

But thanks for asking!

STR

 

[Len]

Len do you not read these threads well....

Yet another unnecessary comment I could personally do without.

We do not keep a physical office in L.A

So who is doing the picking sorting packing and shipping of fish?

I don't know and never claimed to know. I don't know their operation. I suspect very few of us do but unfortunately many of us post with authority.

And Len you say

fyi: it's not just an aquaculture facility

But our buddy foster says

Please note our aquacultured corals and Diver's Den aquatic life will ship separately from our facility in Rhinelander, Wisconsin.

So Len are you saying foster is secretly shipping other things he does not want the public to know about?

Please explain.

Diver Den items are not aquacultured. They are wild corals. From their own annoucement found elsewhere, they are also now shipping some fish out of their Wisconsin facility. I don't know what secret you are referring to.

I am going to go out on a limb and share something with the board. I am way to dumb to fabricate this stuff, all I do is repost quotes and information as support to what I say. I wish this were not true so I could make some cool stories up, but I got shorted a chromosone or 2. :wink:

I like self-deprecating humor In any case, you've posted figures like "90%" et al that, to the best of my knowledge, is pure fabrication.

 

[SavetheReefs]

Come on Len, enough is enough why do you force me to keep on quoting you or myself??????????????

I clearly stated this past Wednesday

Wisconsin??????????

The only thing that is coming out of there is what they are pawning off as aquacultured (and CC and DD)

So does that not make this post of yours irrelevant?

Diver Den items are not aquacultured.

And then you say

From their own annoucement found elsewhere, they are also now shipping some fish out of their Wisconsin facility.

Would you be kind enough to point out to me where this information is found? I am not saying it is not true but I would like to read it for myself.

And do you not think that foster is reading all of this, he is just hoping to find some libel here so he can send them big corporate attorneys after someone.



So please before you try to correct me again please do a little research so I do not have to copy and paste.


STR[/quote]

 

[Len]

I believe the announcement was made in liveaquaria's sponsor forum on RC. I'm sure you can find it with a quick search.

I'm bowing out of this argument. I don't see anything constructive being discussed and I think your insistance on critiqueing of liveaquaria's policies and marketing statements (as well as my perpetuation of trivial side-debates - for which I apologize) has severely detracted the original disussions in this thread. To insure impartiality, I'm not interested in debating industry issues or picking sides. My original post was simply a moderator's request to make sure everyone stick to substantiated facts.

 

[dizzy]

My original post was simply a moderator's request to make sure everyone stick to substantiated facts.

I agree with Len that enough is enough on singling out F&S. I do have some substantiated facts since I have spoken with Race and Kevin, in addition to two wholesalers about the practice. I will say that all of the etailers, (I know of at least four) that are lucky enough to have someone dropship for them have followed a similar pattern. They all tried to use language (on their web sites) that was somewhat misleading to obscure the fact that these wholesalers were providing a service to them not offered to most. In short they were either trying to protect the wholesalers, or trying to keep this little game out of the public knowledge so others wouldn't ask for a similar deal. Well the cat is out of the bag now.

I think in defense of F&S it is important to make these points. They were not the originators of the dropshipping practice. They are not the only ones that do it. The main wholesaler they use is not the only wholesaler that does this for certain select etailers. F&S was the first to come out and publically admit the practice and freely discuss it. They are by far the largest and estimate 10% of the marine fish that land in LA are sold by them. As time goes by they claim a larger percentage of their fish will be shipped from Wisconsin. I believe most of the rare and expensive stuff is being shipped from there now. While we don't have to like the practice, we should at least realize F&S was the first to come out and fully explain how it works. I respect them for that. Some of the others are still in denial.
Mitch

 

[Anonymous]

You belive what nthey told you Mitch? How so?

 

[dizzy]

Yes Gresham I definitely believe them. Everything they told me seems perfectly logical to me, (except perhaps the 10% part, which was an admitted estimate) plus it jibes with what the wholesalers have told me. Now if they had denied the practice then I would have felt that they were not being honest. That was far from the case.

Now let me ask you. Which part of the above post I made do you feel is inaccurate and why?
Thanks,
Mitch

 

[Anonymous]

I think what makes it hard to believe for me is the rest of Races claims. They have someone inspect each and every shipment as it comes in country. They then select theirs and then the rejects are released to the general pool for the rest of us poor folks to choose from.

I know there are several places which have the same agreement. It's not like live aquaria has a monopoly on that. In the beginning Reefer Madness had a similar set up, though not exactly the same. I'm also told of the deal petsolutions.com has with a certain wholesaler. I have no idea if they do, but looking at saltwaterfish.com I have to believe they too have something going on. Without doubt there are others. I think the crazy crap race was saying during advertisments for his company in earlier threads was just as much an issue as the dropshipping livestock.

Also, f&s are only now shedding some light on the actual practices I believe since this whole hubaloo started. Before that there was no mention that stuff was simply getting dropshipped sight unseen by any live aquaria employee and the doctors never had possession or ownership of the livestock.

While I missed the thread that resulted in his being asked to leave (damnit!), I did witness some other behavior that would make me very leery of what the dude had to say.

My .02.

 

[SavetheReefs]

Wow Len, all I did was post FACTS.

STR

 

[Anonymous]

The 10% :lol: part Mitch.

I estimate that there's 10 billion reefkeepers, belive it?


JP - I think your spot on about the dropshipping practice not being talked about by the Dr's until after it was brought to light by posters on the web. Seems now their spinning it to make them look better.

What I don't get is, they are saying how good drop shipping is, yet, they're tooting thier own horn about shipping more fish out of their WI facility? Which is it, drop shipping is better or from your own facility in WI? You (Dr's) can't knock one when talking about the other, when you have announcent your plans on do more of the first :roll:

 

[Anonymous]

Wow Len, all I did was post FACTS.

STR, please stop singling out Len. All he wants is the same thing Righty, bookfish, myself, and basically everyone else wants.

If you post hard facts, especially when aiming them at a person or group, you'd better have some concrete proof of those facts or else it's considered heresay.

PPOR. Post Proof or Retract.

I can't just say that all stores in the Atlanta region carry juiced fish. If I'm going to back up that accusation, I need proof. Reports, surveys, etc, whatever. If you post something, use quotations, reference links, etc.

PPOR, and please do it in a civilized manner without many derogatory adjectives. If it seems like you're 'ranting' uncontrollably, then more people will tune you out and not take you seriously.

You're not the only one around here who does this, but you're just the current example.

Peace,

Chip

 

[clarionreef]

The worst environment after the export one is the super crowded wholesale one generally.
Animals are much more crowded and stress is high.
To drop ship direct to the consumer from this very unnatural and chaotic environment is an odd one to defend scientifically.
In retail tanks, the fish get a great deal more space and a chance to start eating more normally and rebuild immunity after the recent stresses of shipping. Most fishes are picked with in 1-3 days of shipping! How far does this go to conditioning them?
Its just a justification of the genius of a non rent paying marketing scheme and to make money on livestock without handling livestock.
Steve

 

[SavetheReefs]

Well Marillion how about you or anyone else find something that I have posted in the Industry as being untrue and I will never post again. Until then my facts are facts.


STR

 

[danieldm]

What you're doing is no differnt than bad journalism. You provide facts/details to support your claims...you don throw outlandish jibberish against the wall hoping to see what sticks. Then turn around and challenge the populace to prove it wrong. It's not our responsibility to provide the substantiating facts either way, it's yours...PERIOD!

How about this...
"I did a lot of research, and was able to crack IP address information via a simple hack into the RDO servers and log files. The person going by the handle "SavetheReefs", or "STR" here on RDO is none other than Michael Smoley. After some additional research, I was able to find out that a Michael Smoley had been fired from F&F for stealing over $5000 worth of hardware and selling it on a popular internet auction site. F&S also had to file a harrasment complaint against Mr Smoley for making prank phonecalls and posting slandarous material on several popular internet forums"

I'm sticking by what I just said, until you prove me wrong. Do you get my point???

 

[SavetheReefs]

Well since foster already posted my name you should of picked a better example.

and daniel I replied to each and every question with detail, so this journalism crap does not work, but lets check the facts

FOSTER KEEPS NO OFFICE IN LA
FOSTER ONLY SHIPS HIS AQUACULTURED AND CC/DD OUT OF WISCONSIN
EVERY FISH THAT FOSTER SELLS AS CAPTIVE BRED (except black percs) IS ALSO SOLD WILD CAUGHT
FOSTER AND SMITH HAVE NOT A SINGLE CREDENTIEL TOWARDS SW

If these were lies I could be proven wrong very easily, so again please find something that I need to prove to you and I will.

But I will not hold my breath, no one else has taken that challenge.
Maybe that is because it can not be done.

STR

 

[danieldm]

FOSTER KEEPS NO OFFICE IN LA
FOSTER ONLY SHIPS HIS AQUACULTURED AND CC/DD OUT OF WISCONSIN
EVERY FISH THAT FOSTER SELLS AS CAPTIVE BRED (except black percs) IS ALSO SOLD WILD CAUGHT
FOSTER AND SMITH HAVE NOT A SINGLE CREDENTIEL TOWARDS SW

BIG DEAL! SO WHAT!

In the grand scope of things going on within the industry, this isn't squat. It's also NOTHING that Race didn't already admit to in one way or another either here or on RC.

I know you're very passionate about the issues, but pick your issues and fights with care. If all you have are things like "FOSTER KEEPS NO OFFICE IN LA" and "FOSTER AND SMITH HAVE NOT A SINGLE CREDENTIEL TOWARDS SW". It's nothing, and the reason why you are getting such a cold shoulder here on RDO is because these people know the insignifigance of these as they relate to much more serious matters within the industry, and with F&S. But you're runing around with these petty issues like the sky is falling, and Race should be damned for NOT HAVING AN OFFICE IN LA!

Come to the group with something more substantial than these issues, and maybe someone will listen.

Marc

p.s. I didn't read Race's infomercials close enough to catch your name...does it at least start with an M?

 

[danieldm]

STR-

You know, I'm going to admit that I didn't read every post, in every thread by you. But now that I've taken a few minutes, and it has set in that all you have been going on about is the fact that
FOSTER KEEPS NO OFFICE IN LA
FOSTER ONLY SHIPS HIS AQUACULTURED AND CC/DD OUT OF WISCONSIN
EVERY FISH THAT FOSTER SELLS AS CAPTIVE BRED (except black percs) IS ALSO SOLD WILD CAUGHT
FOSTER AND SMITH HAVE NOT A SINGLE CREDENTIEL TOWARDS SW

I could literally strangle myself for even spending, no wasting, my time by getting involved.

Your issues are tantamount to me, with everything that is going on in Iraq, choosing to pick as my fight the fact that they can't get American Idol Live, it's tape delayed. Not to mention the horrendous fact that, gasp, they can't vote for their favorite.

 

[dizzy]

Who is Jack Wishy?