Would you care for a little cheese with your whine?

[nanocat]

I am a hobbiest, not an insider industry person. I've been following the F&S saga for the past couple of weeks.

It seems like some of you are being just a tad disingenuous? I don't really believe for a minute you'd be happy if they never mentioned the words "veterinarian, best, finest, select, or cherry picked". You hate his business model, the verbiage is simply your excuse for needling what you see as a major thorn in your sides.

I'm not sticking up for F&S, nor do I have a problem with them. Frankly I live in the LA area and there are more B&M local stores than I can even visit in a year. Personally I would always choose to see my fish in person.

That said, I don't live in Podunk Acres just 150 miles from Dogpatch USA either. If I did, I'd probably be darn grateful for etailers. Do you LFS owners located in major cities believe that your local customers are buying etail and paying shipping charges rather than shopping at your LFS? My assumption had always been that the major customer base for etail was often those outside of large metropolis areas :?:

 

[danieldm]

Nanocat-

As many have already stated, their problem isn't so much with F&S but with the wholesalers that are giving preferential treatment to certain etail vendors. Sure there are some that are nitpicking F&S on their verbiage. I don't really care about their verbaigae...my problem is that they are advertising to their customer base as doing A, and that them doing A is much better than those doing B&M...but the fact is that they are not doing A, they are doing B. It's a typical bait-&-switch.

No, their customer base isn't just the people that don't have a decent store near them.

 

[danieldm]

Let me put the chief complaint into perspective for you. I don't know what you do for a l;iving, but let's say that you were a florist.

You've been running your shop for four years, and your main Competition is Ace Flowers across town. You've been going to MacRuter's Wholesale Floral for four years, and feel that you have built a pretty good relationship with them and tha they treat everyone fairly...at Easter everyone getsa fair pick at the Lillies, at Christmas everyone gets a fair pick at the Pointsettas.

Then one day you discover that MacRuter's has been misleading you, and hiding the fact that they give Ace Flowers first pick on new flowers, and that they do al of the arrangmebts for Ace, and deliver around town as well. All Ace Flowers really amounts to is some lady in a small office with an 800 number.

How would you feel towards MacRuter's? The problem that you are dealt with is that MacRuter's is the ONLY place for you to get flowers. You have to continue doing business with them even though they are gicing your direct competition a much better deal, that allows them to undercut your prices due to their much lower overhead and operating model.

This is the basis for the serious disagreement that the B&M crowd has in the situation between F&S and the wholesalers. F&S, regardless how you feel, at it's core is a business, with a very smart business model. The wholesalers on the other hand, have intentionally misled you, say one thing to your face and do another, and so forth.

 

[nanocat]

All true.

But if I were the wholesaler I'd probably give preferential pricing based on volume. Since many LFS have small orders in comparison to F&S, they probably pay a little more. It's not that wholesalers prefer F&S, it's about who is their largest customer.

I'm a buyer at Boeing. You bet I get better pricing than some much smaller company.

For that matter, if I were a hobbiest living far from the nearest LFS and I did want to buy via etail, I'd probably look for the etailer who gave me the best guarantee.

F&S is doing some pretty smart advertising and whether their fish are the best or not, they are offering the longest warranty.

It's not like they're going away any more than Target or Walmart. Seems sort of silly to whine about them :wink:

 

[SavetheReefs]

Yeah Nanocat but what you are failing to realize that both foster and Dr Mac just got on this board and stated that they get the same prices and have the same access to livestock as any other business'. Do you belive those statements to be factual?

STR

 

[Hobbyist]

I'll give you what I believe to be the correct answer STR. Based on my observations DR. Mac gets no real preferential treatment. He doesn't have that great a selection. In the case of DRF&S, I believe they get the best of their primary wholesalers inventory.

My question at this point is does every wholesaler have an arrangement as a dropshipper? My B&M, of which I am an avid supporter, will not order from at least two wholesalers they used to use because of current availability and livestock health issues.

I would bet, however, that every wholesaler has a few special friends whose orders just happen to arrive first sunday night/monday morning.

I don't know exactly what nanocats point was, but I am guessing it was along the lines of unless the someone can prove they are doing something illegal, you better find a better game plan/way to compete, including using your purchasing influence.

I agree with your analogy, I just believe B&M have other options and can compete better. At least I hope so. Otherwise this hobby is headed for the septic field because DRF&S isn't going away.

 

[danieldm]

STR-

Let's leave Dr Mac out of this. He has never made the outlandish claims that F&S did, he didn't come in here and pull a freak out in a "Tom Cruise bouncing all over Oprah's couch" sort of way. Dr Mac has always housed his own lifestock, and maintains a B&M storefront. I know people that he deals with and the only discount that he is getting is the same discount that you or I would get if we were dropping that sort of money on an order.

Nanocat-
I agree, the whining needs to stop. The B&M group either organizes, takes up arms, and fights, or they shut up. There are only a handful of B&M people even partaking in this forum, and the vast majority of B&M's have no idea that they are getting fleeced by the wholesalers.

So with that I challenge the AMDA to get off it's collective duff and fight for their livelihood (either run with the big dogs or stay on the porch).

 

[chris&barb]

Yeah Nanocat but what you are failing to realize that both foster and Dr Mac just got on this board and stated that they get the same prices and have the same access to livestock as any other business'. Do you belive those statements to be factual?

STR

can you prove that they do? I've been to Dr. Macs many times. it is a B&M and isn't some large warehouse. And as far as i know the only thing drop shipped from them is LR, and that's only for people that want it fresh as can be. they also have a few large vats of cured LR that you can come and pic out of if you want. and as for drop shipping corals, they have a greenhouse full of them.

i don't think you know as much about his business as you think you do

 

[Hobbyist]

Danieldm, you are absolutely correct. Most B&M don't understand what is going on and are too ignorant to change anyway. Most need to be saved from themselves.

Someone had better step up and save them. The thought process cannot be how do we get rid of DRF&S because that ain't gonna happen. You have to find a way to better compete and make them irrelevent except to a specialized market.

This is what is incredible to me. I have yet to see any positive ideas with regard to helping B&M adapt. There is absolutely no introspection, only attacks on the source of the problem.

 

[danieldm]

I do know anything about AMDA. But if it's anything like similar organizations I have dealt with in other sectors over the years, by the time they decide how they should move forward, and hold meetings on how they should meet, and discuss who should do what, and, and, and, and...we'll all be living in the United States of Drs' Foster & Smith.

 

[SavetheReefs]

All I know is that I have never received a discount from any wholesaler on the 104th. Can someone please tell me what the magical dollar amount is when you start receiving these discounts?

Now chris and barb and Daniel go to Dr Macs website and then come back and tell us what you found.

Especially chris and barb, you should have just done a little research before making your very untrue post.

i don't think you know as much about his business as you think you do

Well you might think that, but I know for a fact you know less about his business then I do.

STR

 

[chris&barb]

Especially chris and barb, you should have just done a little research before making your very untrue post.

what because they have a link that says fish drop shipped. sorry must have over looked that :roll: isnt that the same as a customer walking in to your B&M and saying i want this fish but you dont have it, and you saying i can get it?

BTW they have plenty of fish in stock, in house

have you been there?

anything else untrue about my other post?

can you prove they get a price break?

 

[danieldm]

I was on the Dr Mac page as recently as 2-3 weeks ago, and the "Drop Ship Fish" link wasn't on therethen. That's something that is new.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Just because Brick and mortar stores are not yet dropping like flies, Dose not mean retail fish stores are not feeling the pain of the loss of profit due to drop shipping and etailingstealing customers. Most of the brick and mortar stores in Atlanta have changed hands several times or gone belly up over tha past five years. Most fish stores in Jacksonville FLA have disappeared. You might not notice the increase change over in store ownership's, but there is an underlining reason for such events.
What we are in is a transition period.
Right now the hosts can still survive the drain of the parasites.
But it wont last for long.
The web has already killed the record stores and next is going to kill the music industry, no longer will it be possible to sell music ......when it can be found for free. With little profit potential record companies fold. Recording artists will only make big bucks from concert gigs.
Same for the movie industry.As the Net gets faster, Block buster and rental stores are history......then the idea of paying for a DVD at target will give way to downloading it on the web for free. (its hard to bank roll 350 million to shoot a flick when you cant recoup it with move ticket sales)
Even the Airline industry is in a transition. The discount airlines are a lot like mail order fish stores. See they compete only in the most profitable markets. Delta flies to every city in the USA. Air tran only flies to the most popular and profitable routes. Delta is gong broke because they want to be known as a full service airline, flying you anywhere in the USA.
Soon when only the discount airlines are left , there will be no service to fifty percent of America. See these off market destinations are impossible to make a profit flying to. Just like a brick and mortar home town fish store selling brineshrimp and aquariums at cost , it takes profit from somewhere to provide losss leader services like flying a half empty airplane to BFI airport in flyover territory.
The American consumer is about to find him or herself in an ugly reality.
Watch what happens when GM and Ford run out of gas
When the movie industry continues report dwindling ticket sales and can only afford to Blair witch and green screen production.
When the music industry winds down due to napsters. ( sales are down by thirty percent US and sixty percent worldwide thanks to China)
When a balance is stuck between hosts and parasite the bloodletting is sustainable.When something spawns an influx in blood suckers, the hosts fall taking even the parasites with them.
See reef tanks are not the only "systems which can "crash".
Get ready for serious RTN in several main stream US industries.
Some of which your going to find more of an inconvenience then finding someone to shipyou brine shrimp or a 180 gallon aquarium over the net.

 

[clarionreef]

Kalk,
Brilliant...really!...and as it relates to the aquarium trade, inconvenient.
So, like the simple little economic determinists we are...we'll try not to hear it.

"...at nite when all the worlds asleep,
the questions run too deep....
for such a simple mind...."

What I dislike is how the multiplication of mass multi-level market demand stands in inverse relationship to fish supply... especially on the increasingly rare stuff and how greater efforts expended in keeping the catch numbers up is assumed to be proof of plenty of fish.

"...at nite when all the worlds asleep,
the questions run too deep....
for such a simple mind...."
Steve

 

[SavetheReefs]

isnt that the same as a customer walking in to your B&M and saying i want this fish but you dont have it, and you saying i can get it?

You are kidding right?????????

How about no and no way.

If I special order a fish for one of my customers they are not obligated to buy the fish nor do I make that customer put any money down. If the fish comes in and looks anything but perfect I will not even allow that customer to purchase the fish.

How in the world do you think that is the same as an etailer dropshipping a fish to a customer and having never laid his eyes on that fish is beyond me.

So please do roll your eyes again :lol:

STR

 

[Len]

Just a remainder to make your arguments without the condescending rhetoric. Thank you.

 

[SavetheReefs]

Sorry

 

[JennM]

isnt that the same as a customer walking in to your B&M and saying i want this fish but you dont have it, and you saying i can get it?

You are kidding right?????????

How about no and no way.

If I special order a fish for one of my customers they are not obligated to buy the fish nor do I make that customer put any money down. If the fish comes in and looks anything but perfect I will not even allow that customer to purchase the fish.

How in the world do you think that is the same as an etailer dropshipping a fish to a customer and having never laid his eyes on that fish is beyond me.

So please do roll your eyes again :lol:

STR

I have to agree with the above. It's a tricky situation. Let's use an example of an expensive fish - for a smaller store it's a large gamble to spend a lot of money on one fish. If the customer pays in advance, the fish is DOA or less than perfect, he/she is going to expect a refund. If the LFS doesn't take a deposit and the customer just doesn't bother to come back to pick it up, or if the fish is less than perfect, the LFS is stuck with that fish until a suitable buyer can be found.

With the dropshipping game, if the dropshipper doesn't find a buyer for that fish, the wholesaler will find another - larger pool of customers to play with.

So dropshipper F with the iron-clad guarantee has that advantage because as it's been pointed out to us, even if the fish survives but isn't what the buyer expected/wanted, they can get their money back and the transaction "never happened". Not too many LFS can afford that luxury - especially once John Q. Public realizes that they can scam. Of course the majority of people are honest (that's the gamble that F takes when he offers up such a bold guarantee), but you know there are plenty out there who will take advantage. There are also quite a few that will eat their own losses and move on, so the odds are pretty good for F. Besides, they can make it up in volume

Jenn

 

[dizzy]

Race did tell me that one of the posters here sometimes tries to file false claims about doa. I won't mention who it was.