Twilight Aquatics

[sedgro]

Matt-

Old Town Aquarium in Chicago had one 3-4 years ago, before it had been described. They also had C. johnsoni and P. bellae at the same time.

john

 

[Anonymous]

Old Town doesn't count We're talking your typical LFS, not some amazing place like Old Town. FWIW, I was in Los Angeles yesterday, and a guy had an Old Town t-shirt on

Matt, if you ever make it to the Chicago area, Old Town should be your first stop

 

[sedgro]

My point was that Brian's prices were comparable even to a high end store like Old Town :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

That's what I thought your point was I was giving OT props, of which they deserve

 

[clarionreef]

If twilight were not so cheap...and its a word used here by supporters of them....
if they were not so cheap we would not be having this conversation.
Steve
cheapest flame wrasses in the business!!! Cheaper then all the rest ...and a new lower mark is set that may ruin the fishes value.
the walmart comparison was based on that sort of syndrome.

 

[Anonymous]

Cheaper then whom? What do you charge for these fish at ASAP? You don't, you can't get them. Show me a LFS in our area that carries any of them, you can't. What market is he lowerring exactly? It's not that they're cheap, it's that there is a SOURCE for them Steve. Many people in this thread would pay more, if Brian charged more. Have you ever sold a Dr Suess fish in all your years Steve?

 

[clarionreef]

I have sold the proverbial Holy grail of the trade many times [ clarion angels] but not to the public.
It would be penny-wise and pound fololish to do so.
These kinds of fishes anchor the trade in commoner things...and reward the loyal, regular buyers for all their subsidy in the commoner things.
Bringing up 60 boxes from Mexico and saving the rare 2 boxes for the public could not ever happen as it would cheapen the clarions. A few grand more for a great deal less in the long run.
I've had hobbyists call me Sunday morning begging for clarions and offering much more money for them and I know better then all of you the so called temptation it represents.
I referred him to the local retailer I doid business with without hesitation.
Selling the best cherries to the public???
Then, I'd be stuck selling them to a few select hobbyists rather then the thousands of tanks that commerce in the system represents.
I'm grateful for the weekly availability of demand and payment that the wholesalers are expected to maintain.
Steve
PS.
Perhaps this is a part time retailer of only small numbers of only rare fish. Then he is a retailer and has to comply with the requistites that that entails.
Perhaps he does.

 

[Len]

Flame wrasses are the only fish Brian sells much cheaper then most of the market. He apparently can catch them with ease. Why should he charge more if the demand doesn't exceed his supply?

 

[Anonymous]

Yah, but Steve, ever sold a Dr Suess fish?

Since you mentioned Clarions. just look what WHOLESALERS did to their prices Used to be $1,500 wholesale, but when they wholesalers got em in mass, they went to under $500. Way to go wholesalers. Smuggle it in, and cheapen it's value vastly.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm curious when Steve keeps saying "It'll cheapen the value of the fish" (or specific fish) is he talking literally? In a "We wholesalers are going to not make as much money" aspect? Or "These fish won't be as rare since ever joe blow can pick one up" or what?

 

[Anonymous]

No, the over all value in the trade. Most of these fish are ones that require some one to risk their life (deep) to collect them. To sell them cheaply, means more will be collected, and more people will risk their lives. It's no joke. Just look at the clown trigger. When it became super popular, PI divers risked their lives in droves to collect them. The small ones are deep, and more desirable to the trade. Steve's told me about a village with very few males left in it, as it's in baby clown trigger territory. They've all been killer in persuit of the tiny trigger. The price on those puppies are far too cheap.

 

[Anonymous]

Quick question, will Twilight collect a species by request? I'm after some really common cardinals that never enter the ornamentals trade... rhabdamia gracilis & apogon neotes.

I want my saltwater tetras, dammit 8)

 

[Len]

He'll take special requests if he's in the right area for collection.

 

[Anonymous]

Groovy. Thanks, Len. 8)

 

[Anonymous]

I bought my first male flame wrasse from a local LFS for less than what Twilight sells them for - and they knew what it was. So, I am not so sure about the idea that what Twilight is doing is bad at all.
Since they are domestic, I think it is a great service that they are offering. Higher end fish collected, qt'd and sent directly to the person who wants them. Seems better for the enviornment (less animals collected due to volume needs etc.) and better for the hobbyist (I would much rather get a fish directly from Brian than have it go through at least two two systems and transfer stress of going from collector to wholesaler to LFS to my home).

 

[rgbmatt]

While these arguments are all interesting, Brian has had to shut down his fish business for the time being due to other commitments. However, you can probably expect to see similar ventures in the near future from other local divers.

My 2c (or 3) on the subject:

- Collectors get hosed when they sell to wholesalers! Wholesalers here will offer $20 at most for a male flame wrasse and $6 or so for a female - these fish will sell for 6 to 10 times as much when they hit stores. The markup on tropical fish borders on obscene. Nobody likes this situation, and you can't blame us for trying to cut out some of the middlemen.

- The chain of custody is very hard on the fish. IMO, the whole thing is wasteful and our oceans deserve better. It's easy to begin seeing your livestock as just a commodity, but the reality is that they are living creatures that were once part of a beautiful and complex ecosystem. I am not against exploiting our reef fish for profit, but it should be done with more respect.

- Brian's business model really only worked with rare fish. It's difficult to make money with cheap fish like yellow tangs, because the holding and shipping costs outweigh the benefits. Although I'm not very familiar with the LFS world, I was always under the impression that low-end fish were the "bread and butter".

- Although LFS guys love complaining about mail order outfits, they still have something that cannot be replaced - the ability to deal with their customers firsthand. There will always be customers who would rather buy fish in person, especially with more costly specimens.

- Brian was encouraging 3rd world divers to injure themselves? Nah. There has always been demand for rare fish, and divers have been dying for the past 4 decades. Collectors would still be dying regardless - the real problem is that wholesalers need fish, but aren't responsible enough to teach the locals how to dive safely. If someone can supply these fish to the market while keeping themselves alive and healthy, more power to them.

- Flame wrasses were a loss leader. Other than that, his prices weren't particularly cheap. With rare species, it's difficult to catch enough specimens to satisfy demand; it doesn't make much sense to sell below market value.

 

[Anonymous]

While these arguments are all interesting, Brian has had to shut down his fish business for the time being due to other commitments. However, you can probably expect to see similar ventures in the near future from other local divers.

My 2c (or 3) on the subject:

- Collectors get hosed when they sell to wholesalers! Wholesalers here will offer $20 at most for a male flame wrasse and $6 or so for a female - these fish will sell for 6 to 10 times as much when they hit stores. The markup on tropical fish borders on obscene. Nobody likes this situation, and you can't blame us for trying to cut out some of the middlemen.

- The chain of custody is very hard on the fish. IMO, the whole thing is wasteful and our oceans deserve better. It's easy to begin seeing your livestock as just a commodity, but the reality is that they are living creatures that were once part of a beautiful and complex ecosystem. I am not against exploiting our reef fish for profit, but it should be done with more respect.

- Brian's business model really only worked with rare fish. It's difficult to make money with cheap fish like yellow tangs, because the holding and shipping costs outweigh the benefits. Although I'm not very familiar with the LFS world, I was always under the impression that low-end fish were the "bread and butter".

- Although LFS guys love complaining about mail order outfits, they still have something that cannot be replaced - the ability to deal with their customers firsthand. There will always be customers who would rather buy fish in person, especially with more costly specimens.

- Brian was encouraging 3rd world divers to injure themselves? Nah. There has always been demand for rare fish, and divers have been dying for the past 4 decades. Collectors would still be dying regardless - the real problem is that wholesalers need fish, but aren't responsible enough to teach the locals how to dive safely. If someone can supply these fish to the market while keeping themselves alive and healthy, more power to them.
- Flame wrasses were a loss leader. Other than that, his prices weren't particularly cheap. With rare species, it's difficult to catch enough specimens to satisfy demand; it doesn't make much sense to sell below market value.

You didn't read the thread accuratly, if the bolded quote is what you think I said.

You're coming off with blanket statements, not good IMO. There have been wholesalers that have taught divers to collect properly, Cortez Marine is one of said wholesalers that have done this.

Local HI wholesalers may pay you that much, but that's not what our lists look like when they reach us manland wholesalers

Obscene mark up? Cut out freight, and the mark up would be less then most dry goods

 

[Anonymous]

No, the over all value in the trade. Most of these fish are ones that require some one to risk their life (deep) to collect them. To sell them cheaply, means more will be collected, and more people will risk their lives. It's no joke. Just look at the clown trigger. When it became super popular, PI divers risked their lives in droves to collect them. The small ones are deep, and more desirable to the trade. Steve's told me about a village with very few males left in it, as it's in baby clown trigger territory. They've all been killer in persuit of the tiny trigger. The price on those puppies are far too cheap.

No mention of Brain getting PI divers to collect PI fish for him

 

[rgbmatt]

You didn't read the thread accuratly, if the bolded quote is what you think I said.

Duh. You're absolutely right.

I know that some outfits are responsible with their divers, but many aren't and people die from it. Diving can be quite safe if you know what you're doing, but deadly if you don't.

Even in Hawaii where you think we'd know better, divers often get injured out of ignorance. Fortunately we have a good hyperbaric chamber to take care of them, but many islands don't.

Obscene mark up? Cut out freight, and the mark up would be less then most dry goods

I was referring to the overall markup from diver to customer. The individual profit margin at each of the 3-5 steps along the way isn't unreasonable, but it really adds up.

Supply and demand is a tricky issue when dealing with a highly perishable product.

 

[Anonymous]

Agreed I'm definitly not trying to combat your post. Every post you've made here, has been an informative post. Please continue to post on RDO, your local knowledge is an asset to RDO's forums

When lacking a chamber, go back down Right Steve :lol:

:lol: heh, I've helped train more rec.(PADI) divers (no commercial, or collectors) then I care to think about, and I've gotten the hurt elbow feeling As carefull as I am, there's been a few times when I had to do stupid stuff hand across throat motions, gimme gimme motion to follow Time to surface. Only when there's a buddy present, which when I'm diving, is kinda rare. They tend to scare stuff off