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PeterIMA

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I wrote quite a long answer but lost it before I could post it. I suggest that if you are that interested, you get the book and read the paper.
Basically, I am not sure whether the ratio I presented is based on the number of boxes or the number of fishes in the boxes. Chriistina Balboa did obtain the forms listing all species and their numbers for October 2000, so I believe the numbers I used to compute the percentages are based on the numbers of fishes.

Peter
 
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heh- given that 2-3 boxes of damsels could equal one entire shipment from hawaii, in sheer number of fishes, my inclination is to think it's box counts, which isn't that telling of a statistic to begin with, for number of fishes, or even dollar values
 

PeterIMA

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Vince,
Nice quote from Bob Dylan. How about somebody else reading the paper then we could have an intelligent discussion.


I think that since the number of boxes summarized was over 2000 per country that any differences in counts of fish numbers by species would be averaged out by the sample size.

Peter
 
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PeterIMA":d5tb72ap said:
Vince,
Nice quote from Bob Dylan. How about somebody else reading the paper then we could have an intelligent discussion.


I think that since the number of boxes summarized was over 2000 per country that any differences in counts of fish numbers by species would be averaged out by the sample size.

Peter

heh who's 'vince' ? :P

you can call me al, but then i might call you betty :P ;)
 

Shawn Wilson

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Anecdotal stories of long term effects of cyanide exposure hold little weight. Cyanide studies have been limited to small control groups, but long term damage has still proven to be questionable. This is by no means an endorsement of its' use or an attempt to minimize its' negative effects on the environment.

This article by Steven Pro sums up the subject well. http://www.aquariumpros.ca/forums/ext.p ... /index.php

Another common fallacy is that importers will continue to buy fish from suppliers with high initial mortality and poor long term survival rates. If your product is substandard, you will not survive long in this business. Of course, transshippers are an exception to this rule, as they focus only on cheap pricing, with a transient customer base.

Pressure trickles down the chain of distribution from the hobbyist all the way back to the collector. Each person in the chain of custody has a vested interest in protecting their customers interests and their own. Your profit margin and goodwill lie in your fish health.

Politics come into play here as well. Net Certified status comes at a high price tag. Many reputable collectors and exporters have businesses that span generations, so they aren't eager to share their hard earned profits with a new governing body from the west. Membership dues are viewed as protection money in developing nations. They are all too familiar with the pressures that are put upon them if they don't pay to be a member of the certified elite. Non-Certified businesses are treated as pariah by Hobbyists and businesses with only a superficial knowledge of the industry.

I've done business with a company in The Philippines for the past 15 years and have found their fish to be in sound health with few mortalities, including experiences in the final consumers tank. At one point in time I sought out a MAC certified dealer in The Philippines with more selection. I tried at least 10 orders with them, but had markedly poor long term survival rates.

About ten years ago one of my suppliers in Indonesia asked me if I knew of any drugs that would work in place of cyanide, as it had just been declared illegal. He wasn't asking me to ship him cyanide, so he was willing to comply with the law to the best of my knowledge. Quinnaldine is the only other drug I could suggest. I've heard it's safe to use, but only from people who want it to be true. There may however be a more qualified side to that debate.
 

Jaime Baquero

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Mr. Wilson,

Thanks for sharing your experience. It is good to know from an importer that fish coming from the Philippines are sound health with few mortalities. Could you please tell us how was the quality of the fish you got during the first years of dealing with your filipino supplier?

Are you suppling stores in the Ottawa region? I am always looking for good quality fish

Thanks in advance

Jaime
 

PeterIMA

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Anecdotal stories of long term effects of cyanide exposure hold little weight. Cyanide studies have been limited to small control groups, but long term damage has still proven to be questionable. This is by no means an endorsement of its' use or an attempt to minimize its' negative effects on the environment.


REPLY-While there is anecdotal information in the aquarium literature (eg Dempster and Donaldson, Herwig, Bellwood) that exposure to cyanide can cause long-term damage the fish's liver and other tissues like the brain, kidney, heart, and spleen, this is also confirmed in the scientific literature by research conducted by Dr. George Dixon of the University of Waterloo. So, I disagree that the assertions about the long-term damage of cyanide as being "questionable". It is a proven fact. I have reviewed most of the available literature in papers that I published (Rubec and Pratt 1984 in FAMA, in 1986 First Asian Fisheries Forum) and 1987 (Marine Fish Monthly). If you need copies of these papers send me your mailing address (sorry I don't have them as PDFs).

This article by Steven Pro sums up the subject well. http://www.aquariumpros.ca/forums/ext.p ... /index.php


REPLY-While I commend marine hobbyist Steven Pro for his efforts, I have some issues with incorrect information presented in his review. There are also many cyanide related papers that he did not consult. Some of his conclusions are wrong.

Another common fallacy is that importers will continue to buy fish from suppliers with high initial mortality and poor long term survival rates. If your product is substandard, you will not survive long in this business. Of course, transshippers are an exception to this rule, as they focus only on cheap pricing, with a transient customer base.

REPLY-I would like to think this is true but I know it isn't. About 80% of the marines exported and sold worldwide come from the Philippines and Indonesia. Almost all Indonesian and Philippine exporters obtain fishes from collectors who use cyanide at least part of the time. So long as the importer buys fish from them he runs the risk of obtaining fish caught with cyanide. This is still true despite the MAC's programs in these countries.

Pressure trickles down the chain of distribution from the hobbyist all the way back to the collector. Each person in the chain of custody has a vested interest in protecting their customers interests and their own. Your profit margin and goodwill lie in your fish health.

REPLY-Each person in the chain of custody has an interest in their vested interest and does what they can to maximize their profit. Unfortunately, the trade has not been willing to invest in trainings to stop the use of cyanide and to improve collection (nets versus cyanide) and handling practices. They are only concerned about themselves not others. Consequently, the whole trade suffers, the reefs are being destroyed, and aquarium fishes (and other fish) are becoming scarce as their habitats are destroyed by cyanide, dynamite, and other forms of destructive fishing (not just the aquarium trade fishery).

Politics come into play here as well. Net Certified status comes at a high price tag. Many reputable collectors and exporters have businesses that span generations, so they aren't eager to share their hard earned profits with a new governing body from the west. Membership dues are viewed as protection money in developing nations. They are all too familiar with the pressures that are put upon them if they don't pay to be a member of the certified elite. Non-Certified businesses are treated as pariah by Hobbyists and businesses with only a superficial knowledge of the industry.

REPLY-What governing body may I ask are you referring to? The MAC is not a governing body. It has little or no legal jurisdiction in the countries using cyanide. It cannot enforce the laws against cyanide use.

REPLY-Then you state that the collectors and exporters aren't eager to share their hard-earned profits with a new governing body from the west. I have heard that the MAC is now paying the dues of a number of these companies to keep them certified, since they have rebelled and refuse to pay to continue to be certified.

REPLY-The last sentence is also a contradiction. You claim that "Non Certified businesses are treated as pariah by hobbyists and businesses with a superficial knowledge of the industry." Actually, most hobbyists know little about the cyanide problem and don't exert much pressure on the trade to reform. Some importers have demanded MAC-Certified fishes from Bali and Ferdinand Cruz purchased them from a MAC-Certified exporter. The fish either died in the flow-through facility and in one case all the fishes sent to a Canadian buyer died. This seems to also be your experience (see paragraph below). I agree with you that if you can find a reliable exporter who can supply fishes that live take your business there.

I've done business with a company in The Philippines for the past 15 years and have found their fish to be in sound health with few mortalities, including experiences in the final consumers tank. At one point in time I sought out a MAC certified dealer in The Philippines with more selection. I tried at least 10 orders with them, but had markedly poor long-term survival rates.

About ten years ago one of my suppliers in Indonesia asked me if I knew of any drugs that would work in place of cyanide, as it had just been declared illegal. He wasn't asking me to ship him cyanide, so he was willing to comply with the law to the best of my knowledge. Quinaldine is the only other drug I could suggest. I've heard it's safe to use, but only from people who want it to be true. There may however be a more qualified side to that debate.

REPLY-Cyanide has been illegal in Indonesia for at least a decade. Quinaldine is a collecting tool in Florida, Haiti, and Puerto Rico. It is expensive to purchase and hence could not be used in Indonesia and the Philippines, where the collectors cannot afford to buy it. Other chemicals like clove oil have been suggested but need further evaluation. Dr. James Cervino informed me that clove oil harms corals. So, I believe that using nets is a better altenative than advocating the use of any kind of drug for collection of marine ornamental aquarium fishes.

Sincerely,
Peter J. Rubec, Ph.D.
_________________
 

Shawn Wilson

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Once again, I do not endorse or condone the use of cyanide.

The problem I see is when people erroneously blame cyanide exposure for fish mortality, rather than addressing the true root of the cause which is poor handling and husbandry practices. Once this fact is acknowledged, a proper treatment protocol can be initiated. I have witnessed many intestinal worm infections that went untreated because the LFS falsely diagnosed it as cyanide poisoning. By burying their heads in the sand and failing to take a proactive approach, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. As a result, very few retailers in Canada carry the necessary medications for treating common ailments such as tuberculosis and intestinal worms etc.. Garlic and hope are the only efforts made these days.

If only a portion of the net training efforts were redirected to setting up raceway systems and educating the people at the source about medications and husbandry, a greater impact could be achieved. I realize these efforts are part of MACs agenda, but they exclude many of the collectors and dealers that need the guidance.

Thank you for the information on the other study. I live near the University of Waterloo, and should be able to track it down at my end. I'll go through my old magazines and see if I have your articles. The only articles I have found address only the immediate mortality rates and effects on the environment. I read the articles Steven Pro sited as they appeared over the years. The early studies in the 80's were poorly carried out and resulted in misconceptions that remain still today. I remember reading an article years ago written by a family physician who performed a necropsy on one of his fish. He reported massive intestinal damage, and surmised that it was due to cyanide damage based only on his experience in human medicine and lack of knowledge of tremitodes.

The later studies were limited due to the scope of the experiments, and their lack of experience in holding marine fish. I think they were a little high on theory and low on practical experience. Nonetheless, they were unable to prove intestinal damage was caused by cyanide, and not ichthyophonus or flukes.

All of the larger importers I know of make an effort to visit their suppliers and try to share their knowledge to better the industry as a whole. Eric from SDC is just one of the many who have made a mission to the collection areas.

I don't agree that importers can profit more from buying poor quality fish. That statement can only be true if the fish die after they leave their facility and they have a transient customer base that would continually draw in new suckers, as the older ones get wise. This scenario is true of transshippers and their inexperienced, short sighted LFS customers. Seasoned veterans buy direct or from a local wholesaler that sells tanked fish.

While MAC isn't a universal governing body, they do control their members. The collectors in The Philippines and Indonesia don't have a problem with taking advice, only paying for it. MAC isn't a charitable organization, it's a business. I'm sure they "pay" the dues of some collectors who only earn a dollar a day, but the exporters are another story. MAC isn't out there training just anybody that needs the help. They only accept people that fit into their business model.

I base my purchasing on my degree of success. Historically, I've had difficulty with certain fish from certain countries. I don't buy Holacanthus Angels from Florida that are bought from Spiny Lobster trappers. The practice of popping the swimbladder with a pin in Micronesia is a problem that is hard to avoid. Water quality in holding facilities in Kona are reported to be worse than the fish kept in bags in the Indo Pacific.

Over the years various suppliers have sent me pictures of their facilities. The pictures from The Philippines look good, but the ones I've seen from Indonesia are incredibly overcrowded. This explains why Indo clownfish are more likely to have brooklynella.

As a result, these suppliers don't get any of my business. Hopefully others feel the same way, and herd is culled.
 

PeterIMA

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You make some good points. I would agree that the high mortality of marine fishes in the trade is due to a number of factors including stress, ammonia, cyanide, disease, and starvation. I would rank them in that order. Recent work by the veterinarians working with SDC also appear to support these conclusions.

So, mortality is a complex problem and better collecting, holding, and shipping methods need to be adopted. Most of the techiques are already known but need to be applied throughout the chain of custody.

I have been doing research in this area and have been importing fishes with various shipping protocols. I plan to publish on this soon.

I would recommend that those interested read the paper by Rubec and Cruz that was published on-line in the SPC Live Reef Fish Information Bulletin vol. 13.

Peter Rubec
 

Jaime Baquero

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Mr. Wilson,

I do agree with the fact that one of the major problems the trade of marine ornamentals coming from Ind and Ph is related to poor handling and holding at community level. It must be also a matter of concern the handling and holding practices at exporter level in those countries, very high biological load in holding facilities, lack of control of diseases and copper overdoses.

The use of cyanide is illegal period. It kills. It's a self evident fact that doesn't need to be demonstrated .

Are you supplier of retailers in the Ottawa/Gatineau region?
 

StevenPro

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PeterIMA":1ex7mrtm said:
REPLY-While I commend marine hobbyist Steven Pro for his efforts, I have some issues with incorrect information presented in his review. There are also many cyanide related papers that he did not consult. Some of his conclusions are wrong.

Do you care to elaborate on this?
 

PeterIMA

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Steven, I told you I had concerns about your paper before you published it. Just accept the fact that you are not an expert on cyanide.

Peter Rubec
 

ETOPS

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Steven, I told you I had concerns about your paper before you published it. Just accept the fact that you are not an expert on cyanide.

Peter Rubec

And what makes you think that you are an expert on cyanide?
 

PeterIMA

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I have written several reviews of the literature concerning cyanide effects on fish and about 15 other papers in the scientific and aquarium magazine literature concerning cyanide fishing and other forms of illegal fishing. I helped found the International Marinelife Alliance (IMA) and I am now collaborating with other NGOs in Indonesial and the Philippines (Telapak, East Asian Seas & Terrestial Initiatives-EASTI). I helped create the CDT SOP manuals used by the IMA and presently by the Philippine Bureau of Fisheries & Aquatic Resources (BFAR). I have been involved with the issue of cyanide fishing since 1984, I have a Ph.D. with training in toxicology, sensory physiology and behavior, and in fisheries (among other things). I published a paper concerning the CDT analyses on fish and invertebrates conducted by 6 IMA laboratories under contract with BFAR. I am a co-author on the paper by Dr. James Cervino concerning the effects of cyanide on corals published in the Marine Pollution Bulletin.

Peter Rubec
 

StevenPro

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PeterIMA":237owxhz said:
Steven, I told you I had concerns about your paper before you published it. Just accept the fact that you are not an expert on cyanide.

Peter Rubec

Do you have any substantive issues with my article yet? You did inform me of one error, which I corrected prior to publication. Other than that, you other two issues struck me as strange. One being that I did not make it clear that the early two FAMA articles by David Bellwood were done while he was a student and the later paper he co-authored was after he had received his doctorate. That did not strike me as particularly interesting nor relevant. And, your other major objection was that I did not reference any of your articles.
 

PeterIMA

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Steven,

I take issue with the highly critical way you wrote your paper. You imply that cyanide does not do long-term damage by trying to discedit David Bellwood's FAMA articles in 1981. One of the assertions that he made was that cyanide destroyed the lining of the stomach and anterior intestine. Later (Hall and Bellwood 1995) he showed that the degeneration of the cells lining the anterior intestine was not due to cyanide exposure. However, his findings concerning damage to other organs confirmed earlier work by Dempster and Donaldson done in the mid 1960s (published in Tetra Digest international in english in 1974). So, I am disagreeing with the assertion that cyanide does not do long-term damage. It does. Just because the information appeared in hobby publications does not make it incorrect.

You make a big deal about the varying concentrations used by various researchers (implying they were incompetent). Actually, my reviews (Rubec and Pratt 1984, Rubec 1986, 1987) showed that cyanide ion was lethal at very low concentrations of about 5 ppm with exposures exceeding 90 seconds. At even lower concentrations for longer exposures cyanide still caused damage and even genetic damage that was passed to F1 generations of Flagfish. So, there is no safe concentration. You seem to condone the use of cyanide by arguing that its harmful effects were overblown, but you never read my papers or cited the papers I am referring to (that appeared in both the scientific and the hobby literature).

As far as the issue about concentration, I have a paper that indicated that even the trade assumed that the collectors were using concentrations of about 5 ppm to capture marine aquarium fishes. It came as a surprise when it was shown by Dr. Bob Johannes in 1995 that the collectors were using 1-3 sodium cyanide tablets per squirt bottle for capturing marine aquarium fishes and from 3-7 tablets per squirt bottle for capturing food fishes. Each 20 gram tablet is equivalent to 20,000 ppm (mg/L) of sodium cyanide, which is equivalent to about 11,000 ppm of cyanide ion. So, extremely high concentrations of cyanide are used for collection of fishes. In the paper by Cervino et al. (2003) we discussed this, but also were conservative in citing the findings of Pet and Dojahni (1998) where concentrations measured in confiscated squirt bottles were less than the initial concentrations (about 1500 ppm if I remember correctly) that must have been present. Cyanide tablets dissolve in the bottles and the concentrations are serially diluted. So, it is difficult to know the exact concentrations sprayed as a plume on the corals. But, Cervino et al. (2003) domonstrated that even 50-300 ppm was lethal to 8 genera of corals. You seem intent on tring to attack this peer reviewed paper that was published in a top scientific journal (Marine Polllution Bulletin). You lend support to an irresponsible corrupt trade that depends on cyanide. So, I object to your cavalier atitude, your anti-science statements, and to the misleading picture you present in your paper.

As far as the paper by Hall and Bellwood you focused on one part of the paper which dealt with groups of damsels fish (16 fish in each group) exposed to cyanide, stress, and starvation (alone and in various combinations). This was not the main thrust of the paper. But, lets consider some of your attack on this and the other scientific papers (eg. Hanawa et al 1998). You make a big deal about there not being sufficient replication for some of their experiments. That is OK. But in the case of Hall and Bellwood (1995) findings you argue that cyanide was not important (despite the fact that the mortality for cyanide-alone was highest 37.5% in comparison to stress-alone 25%, and to starvation-alone 0%). You make a valid arguement that the results indicate that stress was more important than cyanide. You even argue that starvation was important. You claimed that the combination for stress and starvation was "significanlty" higher than the other factors. Actually, no statistics were done with this experiment since there was NO REPLICATION of the various factors tested. While this experiment is interesting and even I have discussed it in my papers, it is open to various interpretations because it does not scientifically prove anything from a statistical standpoint. So, on one hand you denigrate the fact that there was not enough replication, then you pin your arguments about stress on an experiment with no replication. Does that make sense? Are your arguments about stress proven? No, they are not.

Peter Rubec
 

StevenPro

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PeterIMA":22xm6ocq said:
Steven,

I take issue with the highly critical way you wrote your paper. You imply that cyanide does not do long-term damage by trying to discedit David Bellwood's FAMA articles in 1981. One of the assertions that he made was that cyanide destroyed the lining of the stomach and anterior intestine. Late (Hall and Bellwood 1995) he showed that the degeneration of the cells lining the anterior intestine was due to cyanide exposure.

The Hall & Bellwood paper says no such thing. To quote,

"When administered as anaesthetic doses, cyanide appeared to cause no detectable reduction of the mucosal lining of the anterior intestine of P. coelestis. Neither the thickness of the mucosa nor the mucosal surface area changed as a result of the cyanide treatment. Likewise, it did not appear to have any marked effect on post-treatment mortality rates. These results as surprising given the widespread reports of high mortality rates and feeding disorders in some marine aquarium fishes, both of which as usually attributed to the use of cyanide during capture.

Bellwood (1981) concluded that the reduction on the mucosal lining of both the intestine and stomach observed in his experiment was caused by previous exposure to anaesthetic cyanide. However, the results of the present study suggest that the effects observed in the intestine may have been a result of starvation and that the effects seen in the stomach were possibly due to stress."
 

StevenPro

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PeterIMA":2coz3v2j said:
You make a big deal about the varying concentrations used by various researchers (implying they were imcompetent).

I don't imply anything. I simply report the widely varying concentrations used by the various researchers as well as the difficulty in measuring what concentrations are actually used by collectors.
 

StevenPro

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PeterIMA":3iqwja2v said:
As far as the paper by Hall and Bellwood you focused on one part of the paper which dealt with groups of damsels fish (16 fish in each group) exposed to cyanide, stress, and starvation (alone and in various combinations). This was not the main thrust of the paper.

What are you talking about? That was exactly the thrust of the experiment, the effects on fish exposed to cyanide, stress, starvation and various combinations of those.

PeterIMA":3iqwja2v said:
But, lets consider some of your attack on this and the other scientific papers (eg. Hanawa et al 1998).

I would not consider my article an attack at all.

PeterIMA":3iqwja2v said:
But in the case of Hall and Bellwood (1995) findings you argue that cyanide was not important (despite the fact that the mortality for cyanide-alone was highest 37.5% in comparison to stress alone 25%, and to starvation-alone 0%).

You selectively excerpted those same numbers in your Rubec et al work "Cyanide-free net-caught fish for the marine aquarium trade" and yet in every instance you neglect to inform the readers the mortality of all the various groups to put those numbers in their proper context.

Minimal Handling Control 16.7%
Handled Control 25%
Cyanide 37.5%
Stress 25%
Starvation 0%
Cyanide & Stress 25%
Cyanide & Starvation 33.3%
Stress & Starvation 66.7%
Cyanide, Stress, & Starvation 41.7%

I am sorry if my article does not fit nicely in line with your agenda. I do agree that cyanide is not a pracitce to condone. But, I am also not willing to be intentionally misleading regarding the facts so as to bring aquarists around to my point of view.
 

PeterIMA

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Steven, Why did you ignore the findings by Dempster and Donaldson and by Bellwood that showed damage to the liver, kidneys, spleen, heart, and brain? Why just focus on the anterior intestine?

Where are the statistics you cited for the Hall and Bellwood (1995) experiment?

Peter
 

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