LFS Loss Rates

[RichardS]

How many of you carefully track loss rates and if your willing to share what is your average loss rate?

Also how do you calculate your loss rate?

In the past 6 years I have used quite a few wholesalers, some better than others. However, over the long term my loss rate remains fairly constant at 15%. This number is counting the # of fish I ordered vs the # of fish sold. The majority of these losses are either DOA's or the occasional bad batch of fish that I order in higher quantities such chromis. For example, I was just sent 20 cb ocellaris that came in with a bacterial infection. 18 of them were down by the next day. Although I am credited for those fish I still count them. Dead is dead right. This also includes the occasional mishap such as a malfunctioning heater that cooked a system overnight, as murphy's law dictates, it was the most heavily stocked tank in my store.

A friend of mine owned a very good shop for some 20+ years and kept careful record of his loss rate in the same manner and it was pretty much the same as mine.

I often here people throw out 5% or less so I am wondering how they are coming up with this number since much of the losses I count are beyond my control.

Also, it might be helpful to know how quickly you are moving stock. I know many shops around me do 20 - 25% off when people buy straight from the bag whereas I always hold fish for at least a day or two before selling them.

Wholesalers feel free to chime in.

Thanks for sharing,
Richard

 

[rudylbj]

I keep careful tally on DOAs and deads and they amount to about 10% on a yearly basis. Over the years I have become much better at determining exactly what to buy and who to buy from and this lowered my yearly total from about 15%--the same you are now seeing. I have become more ruthless at what I buy and if that means there are certain animals I do not have in stock so be it, in the long run I am more profitable for it. I never sell from the bag, usually keep all stock 3-5 days before selling depending upon what it is. Once I begin to sell the stock I turn over within 7-10 days.

 

[swsaltwater]

10-15% sound right, I had a few shipments spike to over 30% though. Yearly average is likely 15% for me. When I took over the shop the previous owner had to be running well over 30%. I remodeled with all new systems and when i did I found mag drive pumps melted with open copper shocking the tanks(grabbed one live as I was emptying the sump!!), bad heaters, etc. It was a shock waiting to happen and I found out why he had 10 ground probes on the system lol..

 

[Anonymous]

just one good example of a fairly typical reason/attitude that causes many lfs's to go under (as opposed to the internet, or big box dropshippers)

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for your on topic post Vitz :lol:

 

[Anonymous]

heh it IS on topic-things like improper care/husbandry/setup are, imo-a major factor in daily losses, and tie in quite directly with my statement, AND with some of the 'other threads' posts

 

[Anonymous]

Or it could be viewed as yet another one of your digs at a LFS. IMO your sort of out of line here. The gentlemen asked a honest question and you used it a another chance to say your speal. Your starting to sound like Kalk (sorry Kalk)

 

[Tropic]

no he sounds like the typical Vitz.

Vitz-
hows your bicycle riding these days sport?

Still scrubbing tanks? there is a new algae magnet you can get that would improve your performance. You know what they say...better performance=better pay!

 

[JennM]

While reluctantly, Vitz has a point about husbandry at the LFS level, it's also in the best interest of the LFS to have appropriate systems set up to house their livestock. While there's no doubt that there are some that leave something to be desired, that still doesn't explain DOA rates. If it's dead before it hits the LFS system, that's one thing.

DAA can depend on a variety of factors, not the least of which is the system in which the animal is housed upon arrival. However that's something the LFS has direct control over - the other factors are not.

I had higher DOA/DAA when I ordered from the big wholesalers, less when I switched to a smaller, pickier wholesaler(s). They won't send it if it's not in good health, they are more likely to pick my order themselves, versus a sales rep passing it on to a worker in the warehouse, etc.

I get very few DOA - average less than one fish per shipment. Many (most) shipments no DOA at all. DAA, maybe 2 or 3 fish in the first 72 hours on a bad week - and usually those are "calculated risks" - fish that typically don't travel well or are a bit more fragile than the usual bread and butter stuff. I don't have huge orders, but 2 or 3 in a small order is a large "percentage", but I'd still say on average it's well under 10%. Anything that dies after 72 hours, and/or for no apparent reason - that's on me insofar as making sure my system is running right, water quality good, feeding appropriately etc.

For example, on my last order I chanced 2 copper banded butterflies - both died 24 hours post-arrival, despite being in a stable reef system. They didn't travel well and were stressed and even after careful acclimation they wouldn't eat 12 hours post arrival and they were breathing hard (no obvious signs of disease)... bad batch - glad I only got 2. The other fish I lost was 1 green chromis out of 25 ordered. All the other stuff I ordered was fine - Flame Angels, Coral Beauties, sleeper gobies, foxfaces, yellow tangs, a few wrasses and the like. I don't know offhand how many fish I got in the order, but the copperbands were a gamble and I knew it, and one chromis out of 25 is more or less to be expected. All arrived alive.

Back in the day I had to make a LIST of all the DOA. Now I don't, because there's no need.

Jenn

 

[swsaltwater]

Vitz, if you don't think the wholesalers have similar losses just ask them. I see the undertakers going around wholesale outfits with a big tub of dead fish when I go. I am sure etailers that stock and tranship have the same numbers. I suspect now that I broke down and put in copper my loss rates will go down a bit. I always hated copper but with these new strains of ICH that are resistant to hypo salinity I had no choice. Formalin was not doing the trick 100% and It just is a pain to make sure the employees are vigilant to not use a copper net to catch something in an invert tank.

 

[pyrrhus]

Even better, train the employees to not use nets. Specimen containers/hands are far less traumatic.

 

[sdcfish]

Now this is a topic worthy of heavy input........

My questions for the LFS would be:

1. What husbandry procedures are done and tracked daily?
2. Is there a log kept? PH, Copper, Ammonia, KH, Temp, Salinity...
3. Who is responsible for keeping track?
4. ?

It's amazing to me that some stores still are not using copper on their fish systems, or treating their systems with some regularity. Disease seminars have been offered for years now, and more and more knowledge is known about what effects marine fish.

A group like Amda would be obvious to me that a standard protocol for retailers would be drawn up as a baseline......just hopeful I suppose.

Anyone know where this information can be found? How would the general consensus be distributed successfully to retailers? Via wholesalers?

This is where I think people here that are successful can make comments and a difference.

Best regards.

 

[swsaltwater]

Eric,

I think distributing the information via wholesalers would do the trick. Medicating is a fine art and wholesalers are on the cusp of knowing whats coming in from the wild. Oodinium, new ich strains, velvet, etc. A weekly email on what is seen and whats the best medication of choice might be a good start. Most my losses are in the following order DOA, DAA (not eating since arrival or having a bad parasite issue), and jumpers. We put all the know jumpers in covered tanks but there always is a gap from plumbing. I am working a new remodel in the next 2 weeks to open up more livestock space and add in the new RK2 25 System. Copper is an issue since a lot of reef hobbyist will not buy from a system with copper so I was using formalin as well as a few other partially reef safe treatments. As you know treating adds to cost and with the dropshippers you sell to undercutting us so much some shops simply can not afford to treat properly. I bite the bullet and spend a lot on treatment but it really cuts in to profits quite a bit.

1. What husbandry procedures are done and tracked daily?

Fish are observed daily for aggression/parasites and moved to QT if needed.

2. Is there a log kept? PH, Copper, Ammonia, KH, Temp, Salinity...

A log would be a great idea, but the system is monitored and tested daily. We perform 300 gallon water changes at least bi-weekly or when nitrates go over 20-30ppm on a 940 gallon fish system. I also have several coral systems that go awhile longer between changes. Temp in Arizona is a hard one, with the humidity and HVAC issues plus 120 degree heat it's hard. I keep the temp swings under 3 degrees but it cost about 1300 a month on electric to do that lol. I am currently buying a swamp cooler to assist with the non monsoon months. I can then vent all the air outside instead of letting the AC try to fight it. Salinty was kept at hypo quite succesfully for about 3 months. Really helped with ich until those new strains out of vietnam were found. Velvet and Oodinium were treated in QT.

3. Who is responsible for keeping track? Owner is, as always


4. My question to you...... Is there any way to medicate in the bag during shipment without adding stress to a fish? This would probably aid with giving us a head start on fighting the parasites as they come in.

A full blown QT cycle is still not in the cards in Tucson as I polled the customers and none would pay the 30% or so more on the cost of doing that. They all said as long as the fish are guranteed they could care less about a QT. I also talked to people that bought from shops that ran full QT's, losses did not seem to much different on the customers end. Stress or bad acclimation/ home tank water quality still play a role

 

[swsaltwater]

Even better, train the employees to not use nets. Specimen containers/hands are far less traumatic.

In the small systems that might work, but I have 60 gallon tanks that make it hard to run down a fish. I like to give the fish plenty swimming room so I have not yet put dividers in the tanks. I got some new soft nets that do not stress the fish as much. Neon gobies with hands would also be a tricky catch.

 

[sdcfish]

So true about handling the fish with softer nets....collection containers etc....

Do you know that exposing a fish to air can greatly harm their immune system where it takes up to 30 days for them to physiologically recover? I have read some really interesting reports on the effects on air exposure....we try to cup our fish as much as possible....next system we build will have removable cubes.

Regards

 

[JennM]

Even better, train the employees to not use nets. Specimen containers/hands are far less traumatic.

In the small systems that might work, but I have 60 gallon tanks that make it hard to run down a fish. I like to give the fish plenty swimming room so I have not yet put dividers in the tanks. I got some new soft nets that do not stress the fish as much. Neon gobies with hands would also be a tricky catch.

I usually fly without a net - except where the fish is venomous or otherwise likely to hurt me.

I've got fish in 75g tanks and long 110g flat tanks (7 1/2' x 24" x 12) and I catch them in a cup routinely. It's easily doable if you practice

I don't have dividers either.

Jenn

 

[swsaltwater]

Very interesting info i never heard Eric, Then how do you solve the introduction of fish to a customer tanks if the shop has copper in the water. No way I can see of to not expose them to air.

 

[sdcfish]

Then how do you solve the introduction of fish to a customer tanks if the shop has copper in the water.

What I have suggested to stores that have the same concerns is that they should run carbon on their packing water station....This is easily acheived if the water for packing runs to a packing station. Just plumb an in-line carbon chamber at the packing station. Same system water, just passes through the chamber slowly, before entering the bag. A small uv sterilizer is always a good idea there too.

Regards....

 

[Anonymous]

Or it could be viewed as yet another one of your digs at a LFS. IMO your sort of out of line here. The gentlemen asked a honest question and you used it a another chance to say your speal. Your starting to sound like Kalk (sorry Kalk)

i have no 'dig' against any lfs,per se-i spent many enjoyable years working in some...

i do have fairly strong issues with ANYONE who goes into a business involving the commerce of livestock, who doesn't research and care for that stock as best they can

fish aren't shoes-it's also my personal experience that most lfs's are indeed 'shoe' oriented more than humane/animal oriented, is all

 

[Anonymous]

no he sounds like the typical Vitz.

Vitz-
hows your bicycle riding these days sport?

Still scrubbing tanks? there is a new algae magnet you can get that would improve your performance. You know what they say...better performance=better pay!

:lol:

feeble attempts at personal insults are on topic ? :roll:

the bike riding's good-keeps my bp nice and low

running a fw dept, being responsible for feeding and nutrition for sw, doing equipment maintenance for a large wholesaler leaves little time for algae scrubbing-given that lights are way up high over our fish systems, there's not much algae to clean anyway, and we have a crew who clean our coral systems

btw, what do you do ? i'd imagine it has no connection to tanks or their scrubbing