Does the hobby die without FedEx?

[JennM]

As far as the guarantee, that will stay as long as I am with the company. I have absolutely no problem reducing the hobbyist's risk and do not agree that it results in poor husbandry. In fact knowing that I have to replace livestock makes us purchase quality, provide better husbandry and ship smarter---- that means health. We are at odds here for sure.

LOL The health of the creature doesn't matter if the person who purchases it puts it into an uninhabitable tank.

I'm not suggesting that it's not best to get the best of healthy specimens, I'm simply pointing out that selling anonymously online to anyone with a credit or debit card doesn't take it one step further to make sure the livestock goes to a suitable environment.

Jenn

 

[Race]

The perfect world would be for RETAIL to do the 14 day guarantee. How about it folks.

 

[Race]

By the way, in my retail store we do provide the 14 day guarantee, along with all of the rest of Jenn's wonderful sevices. I challenge the rest of you to "buck it up" and trust your clients and stand by them with a 100%--- 14 day guarantee. Put a little confidence in your business and your customers.

 

[JennM]

Jenn,

The post doesn't say anything about the customer not trying to get the fish to eat because they had a 14 day guarantee.

Perhaps not - but if the same hobbyist had purchased the fish at a LFS they would have had the benefit of witnessing it eat prior to purchase. When buying something with a long guarantee, there's no onus on anyone to make sure it's healthy and eating first, because there's that safety net.

My (somewhat) rhetorical question is, would the person still have purchased the same fish, sight unseen, with NO guarantee?

It's my contention that if all things were equal, it would be more advantageous to buy it from a LFS where the hobbyist could see it eat, look at it and assess its health based on its appearance and behavior, rather than take a risk on a creature with no guarantees, sight unseen.

That reinforces the statement that offering such a lengthy guarantee, cheapens the livestock.

The same applies to anonymous buying and selling - there's nothing to say that the hobbyist's tank was appropriate for the creature in the first place.

If Hobbyist Joe bought a Mandarin Dragonet and put it in a 10-gallon, bare-bottom, fish-only tank with live rock, of course it would likely die within a couple of weeks - but who cares? They'll replace it.

When the customer assumes their fair share of the risk, they are more likely to research and take proper measures to insure their own success.

Heck, Walmart offers a 90-day guarantee on freshies. Why? Likely because that's their standard return policy on everything. When was the last time Walmart was praised for their ethics and good husbandry?

I think the last time I saw praise and Walmart in the same post concerning fish sales, was when the company decided to stop selling fish in 7000 of their stores.

Jenn

 

[Race]

Jenn,
I gave you the answer. Do as I do in my retail store. Do all of the talking, sell them a fish and guarantee it. Guarantees at retail are the best scenerio and I will admit it. Why do so many refuse???

 

[JennM]

The perfect world would be for RETAIL to do the 14 day guarantee. How about it folks.

Petco and Petsmart do it - or at least they did the last time I checked.

I've also heard that those stores neither expect nor desire to profit in their aquatics department.

Might work for a big box that has dog toys and cat beds to profit from - those aquatics departments are more of a 'convenience' for their customers, rather than a profit center.

As for the rest of us - small specialty shops, I don't think I want to lose money on livestock.

My guarantee is in line with others in this area - however, being the owner, I also have discretion to make that better if I choose to.

I have very few guarantee claims, mainly because I hold my fish before selling them, rest them, make sure they're eating and healthy - AND I encourage customers to bring in a water sample for a free test prior to selling them livestock. It's not mandatory to test beforehand, but if they do happen to make a claim, I do test their water before I honour that.

Most times claims are prevented by testing the water FIRST and any issues resolved before a fish goes home.

Sometimes a customer will opt not to bring in water - that's their call, before they buy - but I've found that some "claims" were attempted only to find out the water was unsuitable to begin with. That sort of thing is *very* rare, mainly because my proactive approach is usually very well received as it protects both the consumer *and* the livestock.

Jenn

 

[Dr. Mac1]

Race, You are a master marketer and word master. Now you are twisting the discussion to an argument about what my motives are.

I am a lifelong hobbyist, you are not. I have cared about the health and quality of livestock for 40 years. I think a livestock guarantee is fair at live arrival plus 48 hours, not needed for 14-30 days. If you know me at all Race you know about the extremes I go to attain quality livestock--going every 2-4 weeks to select my own stock and to the islands as well and working closely with several collectors via phone, email, and personal visits. So, please do not intimate that somehow I do not care about and provide the quality and health of livestock.

It is my opinion and experience that your 14-30 day guaratees are a marketing tool and makes the livestock a commodity. I have for the last 7 years provided quality livestock and stand behind what I sell. You are not the only one that does everything possible to attain and sell quality stock and provide excellent customer service. I am not putting any burden on the customer to expect that they care for the stock well as we all should. If I deliver to them a live animal that is healthy and they are happy with it upon arrival why is it my responsibility to be sure it stays alive in their tank for 14-30 days despite my not knowing in any way their husbundry methods? they get live healthy livestock, if not I replace it, that is reasonable.

You have stated here that you do livetsock at a loss, in my opinion with all due respect this is a ridiculous statement and further cheapens livestock. No business can sell at a loss long term unless you are doing so to prop up your drygoods side and thus cheapening the value of the livestock.

Having said this, I am not interested in getting into a heated degrading debate with you. We have more in common than in disagreement. we both are passionate about this industry and try to attain and sell quality livestock while providing excellent customer service and the more we both do this we further expand the marketplace by creating happy hobbyists that add more tanks and get more folks into the hobby. So, lets leave the debate at this point and get back to work---as I said I really don't have the time to further respond, just had to get with you about the FedEx deal. Thanks, Mac

 

[JennM]

Well said, Dr. Mac - in all your posts in this thread.

Thank you for putting what many of us feel, into such eloquent words.

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

Jenn,

The post doesn't say anything about the customer not trying to get the fish to eat because they had a 14 day guarantee.

Perhaps not - but if the same hobbyist had purchased the fish at a LFS they would have had the benefit of witnessing it eat prior to purchase.

Maybe, maybe not. Many people don't ask to see a fish eat before purchase, and LFS certainly don't always suggest it (if ever).

My point is that it seems the idea of people taking advantage of the 14 day guarantee and not caring about the lives of the animals doesn't really seem supported.

When buying something with a long guarantee, there's no onus on anyone to make sure it's healthy and eating first, because there's that safety net.

Sure there is. Who wants to deal with going back and invoking the gurantee? Who really wants to deal with replacing an animal? Its easier and simpler to keep the thing alive in the first place.

[quoute]My (somewhat) rhetorical question is, would the person still have purchased the same fish, sight unseen, with NO guarantee?[/quote]

Depends on the animal and the person. It does happen.

It's my contention that if all things were equal, it would be more advantageous to buy it from a LFS where the hobbyist could see it eat, look at it and assess its health based on its appearance and behavior, rather than take a risk on a creature with no guarantees, sight unseen.

I used to agree with you completely. However, it is sometimes the case that customers can now get healthy animals sight unseen from etail - sometimes healthier and in better shape than from the LFS. Even more important, all things aren't equal. Many customers want access to animals their LFS doesn't carry and getting it sight unseen seems better than not getting it at all.

That reinforces the statement that offering such a lengthy guarantee, cheapens the livestock.

I am not seeing the connection. If you offered a 14 day guarantee, would that cheapen your livestock?

If Hobbyist Joe bought a Mandarin Dragonet and put it in a 10-gallon, bare-bottom, fish-only tank with live rock, of course it would likely die within a couple of weeks - but who cares? They'll replace it.

Its this kind of extreme example that makes me wary. Any evidence of this happening more with a long guarantee than from LFS?

 

[Race]

Here is another hint.
Petco is growing, Petsmart is growing, Race is growing, Walmart is growing. Are we all idiots or are we giving some customers what they want and cannot get elsewhere.

And is there any support that my death rates are better or worse than retail. While I was in California and saw retail charge backs for mortality on inbound freight to US retailers, I think that I am doing very well. Remember you have to include shipping carnage to your stores and IN your stores as I include mine in the dropship and the hobbyist's tank and in my facilities.

Those losses and charge backs alone were frightening and the reason why I will not become a Wholesaler. Hopefully all of you guys are honest on these charges backs.

Bottom line--shipping directly to the hobbyists saves lives in my opinion and more than makes up for any uneducated losses. Any Wholesalers want to jump in and compare retail charge backs to my 4.7% overall.

 

[JennM]

By the way, in my retail store we do provide the 14 day guarantee, along with all of the rest of Jenn's wonderful sevices. I challenge the rest of you to "buck it up" and trust your clients and stand by them with a 100%--- 14 day guarantee. Put a little confidence in your business and your customers.

Well if I were as patronizing to my clients as you are to me, I'd be out of business in a flash. Are you that demeaning to your clients too?

You know nothing of my shop or my services, save what I've posted about here, so please hold the condescension.

I have plenty of confidence in my customers. Why? Because I know my customers. I know their names, their spouse or significant other's name, their kids' names, hell I even know their fishes' names!

I spend many hours each day simply talking through most of the standard issues that hobbyists encounter. Many may call or visit and not buy anything that day - because they need to correct a problem *first*.

I'm here to help them with that, as well as to sell them appropriate livestock that is healthy and thriving.

See, Race, here it's a package deal. I don't need to offer the biggest longest guarantee in the business, because my sales come with SERVICE... service before, during and after the sale.

Remember that old saying?

A ounce of prevention beats a pound of cure

I'll keep my lil ole ounce of prevention versus your pound of cure any day.

Jenn

 

[Caterham]

Any Wholesalers want to jump in and compare retail charge backs to my 4.7% overall.

Sure, I am happy to jump in. I am a small wholesaler and only handle about 3000 animals on a slow week. My chargebacks on basically non-existant and fall somewhere between zero and one percent annually. I will ask my controller for the exact number and let you know.

Best regards,

 

[Race]

Dr Mac,
I do sell livestock at a loss. On a fully loaded P&L, I rely on other business ventures to subsidize my livestock sales. The profits do not match all the overhead. I stated before that the goal is " break even" and with expansions, that has not happened yet. The same is true of my angus, cow/calf operation in Montana. As a veterinarian, you can appreciate that. I do make a profit on pet and aquarium products and that pays for the rest.
As you know, I have always admired your dedication to the hobby and will leave it at that. I do have about 10 years in.

Good luck---Race

 

[Race]

Good Caterham. Now factor in the instore deaths and the deaths and replacements within 14 days once sold. Remember in my figures are also replacement of stock that just was not satisfactory to the customer. It may have not been sick or died but undersized, off color or whatever. We do make mistakes that have nothing to do with health and that is in the 4.7% I should have clarified that up front, sorry. Our guarantee is not just for health, it is satisfaction. You can see that on our RC forum.

 

[JennM]

Thales,

I feed my fish before the customer. Some ask, some don't. As part of my educating my clients, I feed the fish and I inform them *why* I'm doing it, and I recommend that no matter where they shop, they should ask to see a fish eat before they take it home.

That's something I learned a long time ago, the hard way, as a hobbyist.

I can't speak to other shops' practices - but by advising my clients to ask, they are more likely to avoid fish that aren't eating because they've taken that step themselves, no matter where they shop.

As for taking advantage or not of the guarantee - most of what's posted is anecdotal... so that argument could go either way.

In my anecdotal experience, if people have a safety net, they'll use it. It may be a pain to go back and get another one, but sometimes that is *less* of a pain than changing water, testing water, cleaning filters.... you get the idea. Sometimes the bother of getting a replacement isn't as bad as the bother of trying to figure out why it died in the first place.

Keep in mind that on these boards, you see hobbyists interested in educating themselves and researching their purchases. Unfortunately these do NOT represent the majority of hobbyists (particularly freshwater hobbyists, where most of the abuse of livestock occurs, IMO). Sure if somebody's dropping $20-50 on a fish they might consider their investment more carefully ... maybe not so much if there's a long guarantee... but in the case of $1.49 freshies, many people don't give a damn, period - in fact they won't even be bothered to make a claim ... so I would think statistics might be hard to get in that regard.

I am not disputing the notion that there are quality etailers out there - on just about every occasion that I've had this type of discussion I have acknowledged that there are good etailers, bad etailers as well as good and bad LFS. I am not painting everyone with the same brush.

I do have an issue with drop-shippers like what Race does - his statistic, was it 76% (or 74?) of his livestock sales are drop shipped. THAT I have a problem with.

Would it cheapen my livestock to have a 14-day guarantee? Probably not with most of my customers, *because* of the way I do business. For some, yes it definitely would. I usually avoid selling to those types of people.

Case in point... I had a pair of grandparents come in a few days after the carnival was in town. Their grandchild had won a couple of comets at the fair and of course they died. They wanted to buy some "replacements". So I asked if they knew why the fish died -- what kind of vessel they had them in, if they had filtration etc. They didn't know, didn't care. I suggested kindly and politely that if they wanted to bring in a water sample I'd be pleased to test it for them and help *prevent* any new fish they bought, from meeting the same fate. They weren't interested. In fact, the *cough* gentleman was rather a d*** about it, and he dragged his wife (who seemed interested in my holistic approach) out of the store.

GOOD. I don't want to sell to *that* kind of person anyway. Fish aren't disposable - whether they are freshies or not.

I even put it to them this way - if the grandchild was "traumatized" by the death of her prize, would it not be better *for her* if that same disappointment and heartbreak wasn't repeated? Again - grandma was intrigued, but grandpa didn't give a tinker's damn.

That's fine - let him go to Walmart where he can return a dead fish every day for 90 days. I don't need or want that kind of business, it flies in the face of what I stand for.

And yep, there's plenty of evidence of things like that happening. Over the years I've had quite a few emaciated Mandarins (which I don't stock but I will happily order in for somebody who's got a tank that can support one)... brought in to me after somebody made an impulse buy wherever.

Guarantee or not, many people still do not educate themselves, or research their purchases.

In a perfect world, hobbyists would do their homework, and livestock sellers would do their part and guarantees and such might be nice on paper but wouldn't mean very much because all the safeguards would be in place already, and claims would be few and far between.

Jenn

 

[Race]

Thank you guys for the discussion. I have to turn things in for a day or so but please keep the posting.------------Race

 

[Anonymous]

Thales,

I feed my fish before the customer. Some ask, some don't. As part of my educating my clients, I feed the fish and I inform them *why* I'm doing it, and I recommend that no matter where they shop, they should ask to see a fish eat before they take it home.

That's something I learned a long time ago, the hard way, as a hobbyist.

I can't speak to other shops' practices - but by advising my clients to ask, they are more likely to avoid fish that aren't eating because they've taken that step themselves, no matter where they shop.

I know Jenn, and as I have said in the past, it seems that your store is one of the good ones. I do fear however, that you generalize how things work in your store to the rest of the LFS in the country. Truth be told, many of them simply don't take the time you do.

As for taking advantage or not of the guarantee - most of what's posted is anecdotal... so that argument could go either way.

I don't even know how anecdotal it is - most of it seem more like speculation to me.

 

[JennM]

Good Caterham. Now factor in the instore deaths and the deaths and replacements within 14 days once sold. Remember in my figures are also replacement of stock that just was not satisfactory to the customer. It may have not been sick or died but undersized, off color or whatever. We do make mistakes that have nothing to do with health and that is in the 4.7% I should have clarified that up front, sorry. Our guarantee is not just for health, it is satisfaction. You can see that on our RC forum.

Well when a customer *sees* it in a store before they buy it, they can make that decision about colour, size etc.

So my customer that ordered a Harlequin Sweetlips a couple of years ago, for his *55-gallon reef tank* and received an 8-inch brute, could and should have asked for his money back?

What was he supposed to do with the fish? Put it in his tank anyway? Euthanize it? Send it back? What?

I can see replacing sick or dead fish - but "unsatisfactory?"

What does a customer do to dispose of whatever didn't send them to their happy place?

LOL that's right - they call their LFS and try to dump it there and ask for credit to boot! :lol: Calls like that always make me smile... NOT.

So, Race... that question I'd like to hear your answer to... if it's 'unsatisfactory'... what becomes of the "substandard" disappointing fish?

Jenn

 

[Dr. Mac1]

JennM, your answer was already given, the fish/corals/any livestock is used as a marketing tool to make money on the dry goods---those are the words used here---no need for further debate, those are the exact words used here, therefore my comment about cheapening the value of the animals---they are used as a marketing tool.

 

[Anonymous]

JennM, your answer was already given, the fish/corals/any livestock is used as a marketing tool to make money on the dry goods---those are the words used here---no need for further debate, those are the exact words used here, therefore my comment about cheapening the value of the animals---they are used as a marketing tool.

I am not sure how using animals as a way to attract business to the drygoods area cheapens the value of the animals. I would if the animals were being sold at crazy low prices, but Live Aquaria is know for not being cheap.