Does the hobby die without FedEx?

[Race]

Before I leave I will answer these questions.
Jenn, in almost every case the consumer keeps the fish after a refund. I know of no instances where the specimen was killed. This is the least common of the scenerios. What happens to your fish when they get it home for a week and they decide it looks a little pale or too aggressive? These " errors " or developments are not unique to etail which is why I wanted Caterham to be aware of them. I keep my figures the best and honest that I can.

Dr. Mac,
Fish and coral are not used as a marketing tool. The aquaculture facility and the industry is my hobby just as my cattle ranch in Montana. I have the absolute best calving barn and facility near Winnett, Montana and that precludes me from selling Vermilion steers at a profit. Is that a marketing tool or a choice that I have made with my money? I also have a World Class Dressage Horse Arena in Hazelhurst, Wisconsin. Opened tonight. Is that a marketing tool for selling equine products? No, I just completed all three of the facilities and have been in the industry for years--- all three of these ventures ( all livestock, be it fish , coral, calf or foal ) are what I have chosen to do in my next life. I enjoy nice healthcare facilities and have chosen to spend my money in this way. All animals are professionally cared for, a model approach--- the best that I can do with my animal health degree, available financing and help. I may not have been in the hobby for 25 years but I was not exactly picking sh-t with the chickens.

Guys and girls I think that is my right----so get over it!!!

 

[Dr. Mac1]

Thales, I think you misunderstand my use of the word cheap. Maybe I should have said lessens the value of, instead of cheap. Sorry you do not see my point, but that is my opinion. Same point on a 14-30 day guarantee, it lessens the value in the long term in my opinion.

Again, sorry to chime in again, I think I have raised the issues of concern and debated them with Race in a respectable manner and will now move on. I don't think it accomplishes anything to keep beating the same issue to death.

Race has posted on here before and debated his issues, my main interest now was with his FedEx comment and my point is that nothing will happen to this industry if FedEx does not ship livestock. In his debate on the other board he raised the issue about telling folks to not post bad experiences because it raises our profile to industry watchdogs and my point was that in my opinion some of his marketing practices do that more so in the long run than an ocassional post by a hobbyist about a screwed up shipment.

I and Race both sell to a lot of folks and we have many issues in common, more so than issues we disagree upon, I respect the debate but disagree with pontificating about being the only one that has or cares about quality livestock or excellence of customer service. Many vendors online or otherwise care deeply about the quality of stock they sell and are very passionate about doing the right thing for their customers.

I also felt that the comment that he sells at no profit in one sentence and then in the next saying he does not wish to profiteer from livestock had an air of negativity to me and in my opinion was a slap in the face at all of us in this industry that yes must make a profit to be able to make a living, but are still ethical and passionate about what we do and care deeply about the health and quality of the animals we deal with everyday. I have been involved with these animals and had them in my life for 40 years and will not allow anyone to try to tell me or insinuate that I am in this strictly for profit, as if being a profitable business is a bad thing.

Race, if you choose to sell at a loss or use livestock to get more dry goods sales or do all this with all the marketing, etc. as just a hobby and post here for the sport of it, this is all obviously your perfect right to do. I feel I have tried to discuss a couple of issues with you with respect and without cheap shots such as your chicken sh-t comment. All the best to you.

 

[Race]

Dr. Mac,
Being profitable is not a bad thing but neither is being unprofitable. I edited and clarified my last post. Please read the bottom part and you will understand my motivations. You do not have to agree with any of them but I will spend my money how I choose and no one in the entire animal health profession can question my commitment to animals--- regardless of species. I also gave 1/2 million dollars to Michigan State University to advance animal health. I think that I have "done good" for our profession,-- anything but selfish.

 

[Dr. Mac1]

Nobody questioning your generosity, good for you that you are a generous donor. You obviously have made a profit in some segment of business to be able to give away hundreds of thousands so to make such a debate about profitability is a diversion from the issues being discussed, namely that if Fed Ex does not ship livestock will end the hobby/industry as we know it and posting about negative experiences by hobbyists will be used by watchdogs to shut down the industry. I disagreed with you about those issues and debated those issues.

For those unaware, I am retired from being a board certified poultry veterinarian, Race took a cheap shot at me regarding this with his chicken sh-t remark. that is OK though I understand.

 

[Race]

Dr. Mac,
The picking --- with the chickens is a common phrase. I had no idea that you were a poultry veterinarian, only that you were an "industry" veterinarian, or so I thought. The phrase was used as a response to your comment about my lack of hobby experience. I meant that I was not standing around doing nothing while the rest of you worked.
Please accept my apologies here as I have the utmost respect for you and poultry veterinarians.
This was an honest mistake, sorry----Race

 

[Race]

To wrap up on my end I will admit that my FeDEX postings were more directed at home delivery. I could have communicated better. The future is heading more and more to home delivery but it will never go there in it's entirety. The RC post was about home delivery and my writings were aimed at that rather than LFS, although many LFS do use FedEx. I ship to them and FedEx is my choice. In my opinion, they are the most reliable for health. My point was that the hobbyist will not be able to enjoy these options without FedEx, at least with todays airlines.
I should have been more clear and not so matter of fact. We will have a hobby without Etail and FedEX but it will not be the same as the hobbyist, (especially the newbies the last seven years) enjoys today. I think that they need FedEx as the best choice for home delivery. It was taken out of context and I did a very poor job on my end of explaining it.
As far as image, I do truly believe all that I have written on RC. Baby steps perhaps, but steps in the right direction. Read them carefully if you choose and I am not sure how someone can disagree. I think that image is everything and the industry can do better. To argue about it does nothing but waste valuable time.

 

[CarlC]

JennM maybe you could direct us to these LFS's that are top notch and we should all be buying from. I live in PA. Most are garbage! Plain and simple.

If it came down to Fed Ex not delivering I guess Kevin would have to call me when things are ready a week or two in advance so I can fly out to Wis. or LA to pick them up.

Kevin and Race keep up the great work!

Carl

 

[Kalkbreath]

For some reason I doubt that some one who raise angus animals for the sole purpose of selling their bovine lives for profit ...is going to comprehend our ideal of cheapening of animal life

The same is true of my angus, cow/calf operation in Montana. As a veterinarian, you can appreciate that. I do make a profit on pet and aquarium products and that pays for the rest.

The local store which Jen M posted as going out of business here in Atlanta created several thousand hobbyists each year and is certainly goin to have a negative effect on the number of local hobbyists picking up the hobby.
If the loss of local LFS in the past here in ATLANTA is any indication, the loss of a store like this does not create a "bounce" effect for the remaining retailers ....other large retail fish stores have closed their door and it seems that customers wothout a local store just lose interest in the hobby . A store going unders with sales of about 1.4 million annually like THE FISH STORE AND MORE will also translate into about loss of about $500,000 in drygood and livestock purchases from wholesalers supplying this store.
.
Thats a pretty large loss for the industry as a whole and its only one city.
This single store spent thirty thousand in live stock per month.
How many of the outfits on 104th like the idea of losing that kind of a monthly order?
Of the five lfs stores that have gone under in Atlanta in the past few years.......the combined sales retail sales revenue was about three million per year.

Do we really think that the E-tail sales are going to replace this loss of revenue?
Or more importantly do we think that the web will create near as many new hobbyists as the retail store fronts?

Will manufacturers of reef related goods be able to stay afloat with drastic reductions in consumption as the hobby shrinks.

The Live stock wholesalers seem to barely be able to stay afloat as it is.


As I enter the online market in a few days , I do so with a complete understanding that I am harming the trade in order to make a few more bucks for myself.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Its this kind of extreme example that makes me wary. Any evidence of this happening more with a long guarantee than from LFS?

Here is a prime example of the health of the live stock taking back seat to the no fault guarantee and lower shipping cost option winning out over the animals interests.

TODAY Atlanta Reef Cub:

This order was not without losses. We were shorted a chromis and I took the two bags that had dead and dying chromis. This was my first time, and I'm sorry I messed up on a few things. I probably should have paid $10 to upgrade the shipping, but I just didn't know. I figured an order delivered yesterday would be fine if I received it today.

http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/s ... 137&page=4

Notice the customer opted for the cheaper (longer) shipping option knowing full well that any losses would be covered by the sender.

 

[rgbmatt]

There is a real demand for shipment of live animals and the free market will provide it even if Fedex goes bankrupt. The Fedex/no Fedex question is pointless.

If I were in a situation where I wanted to buy a fish and had a good pet store handy, I would not use mail-order. With live animals, I don't trust things that I can't see firsthand, and this is an opinion shared by many. As long as pet stores can provide quality service and good selection, competition from online dealers shouldn't be an issue.

I could care less about about how you guys sell my fish, as long as you treat them with respect. I'd rather sell to a good online outfit than a crappy pet store, and vice versa.

The 14-day guarantee issue does sound harsh, but at the same time it's true that a lot of fish die after shipping from the wholesaler to the pet shop. The difference in overall mortality between Liveaquaria's sales and traditional retail may not be so great. I also suspect that customers who put out the effort to shop online and deal with the extra expense/hassles of Fedex are more apt to educate themselves on the consequences of their purchase.

 

[JennM]

Before I leave I will answer these questions.
Jenn, in almost every case the consumer keeps the fish after a refund. I know of no instances where the specimen was killed. This is the least common of the scenerios. What happens to your fish when they get it home for a week and they decide it looks a little pale or too aggressive? These " errors " or developments are not unique to etail which is why I wanted Caterham to be aware of them. I keep my figures the best and honest that I can.

Well I can't say that anybody has ever disliked the *look* of a fish after they got it home.

I have had the occasional instance where a new acquisition doesn't play nicely, in which case I simply exchange the fish for the customer.

I'm still curious as to the fate of a fish that someone is dissatisfied with when they buy it from you? Such as in the case of my client who received something way too big from you - he *couldn't* put it in his tank - he tried to get me to take it (and asked me for credit to boot!). I told him I'd take it in and give it a home, but I would not offer credit to the customer for this.

He didn't bring the fish in, so I'm not sure what its fate was.

Still, in many instances, keeping the substandard fish may not be practical because of size, or if a replacement is sent (customer pays shipping, right?!)... what if 2 of that specie won't get along in the same tank? One has to go....

Something tells me that the LFS helps serve as a dumping ground for this kind of stuff.

And yes, Dr. Mac - I *got it* when you said "cheapens" meaning diminishes the value - clearly others did not. It's not about price but absolutely about the value of each creature's life.

The one common thing I've noticed in most/all of Race's posts is that he doesn't give a rat's @$$ about the creatures themselves, *except* to the end that the customer is satisfied.

It's a subtle difference, to be sure, but it certainly outlines his ethics.

Jenn

 

[JennM]

Concerning the issue of hobbyists in areas where there is not a decent LFS...

How many of those hobbyists entered into the hobby in the absence of a LFS?

From anecdotal stuff I've heard, the majority, IMO, either lived in an area that *had* a good LFS when they entered into the hobby, and subsequently moved to an area less served by a brick and mortar, so they turned to the mail-order supplier to continue, OR the LFS in their area eventually closed down, so they had to resort to mail-order to *continue* in the hobby.

I've yet to encounter a hobbyist who wasn't served by a decent LFS, but entered into it from mail-order.

If anybody's got an example of that, I'd like to hear about it.

I used to live in Ottawa (Ontario, Canada). That's where I was living when I entered the hobby, and that city was well served by a few good Mom & Pops, as well as Aquarium Services (aka Big Al's). One could get anything and everything in a brick and mortar.

Then I moved out of the city. It was about a 60-mile round-trip to our fave Mom & Pop. We stayed in the hobby and made the drive - albeit not quite as often. Of course by then our tank was fully stocked so the trips to town were just for supplies - salt, food, etc.

If I'd lived in the boonies first, I likely wouldn't have entered the hobby in the first place. I didn't know anybody in the styx that had a tank, let alone there were no LFS of any description. Even the local department stores didn't have fish sections.

I saw my first marine tank at a friend's place - in the city. I was already into freshwater, and seeing my friend's tank piqued my interest in marines. Later, a co-worker decided to sell his marine tank, we bought it, and the rest is history.

If LFS disappear, the hobby will shrink. As Kalk put it, people don't surf the web and find etail sites and decide to enter the hobby - it just doesn't happen.

I also agree with Kalk that the loss of this major player in the ATL is not going to send extra customers teeming to the other stores. Sure, some already go to various stores in the area, so their business will shift, but the numbers of new hobbyists attracted to the hobby by this centrally located store is going to have a negative impact.

Heck the folks from the GA Aquarium shopped at that store.

Before the GA Aquarium opened, there was plenty of buzz about how the presence of this landmark would increase interest in the hobby and generate more customers. Haven't seen that - and nobody I've spoken with in the trade around here has experienced a bump. The store that's closing is geographically the closest to the GA Aquarium.

Carl - I don't know any LFS in PA - I've only ever traveled through PA. Most store owners of my acquaintance are in the Southeast. So sorry, I can't recommend anyone firsthand. But let me ask you this - how did *you* enter the hobby? Were all the stores there garbage to begin with? Did you move to that area from somewhere else? Or did you get your start in one of those "garbage" LFS?

I'm not condoning substandard LFS - but the presence of a LFS will stimulate the hobby, regardless of its perceived quality. I see that myself here. We've had our share of LFS that weren't up to my standard - but plenty of people bought tanks and such there. I've spent countless hours helping customers fix problems that arose after they bought rigged systems from them, or AFTER they'd used copper in their reef tanks because they bought ich-ridden fish there and then were told to use copper-based meds to 'fix' the problem

It's my contention that the vast majority of customers will still seek out a B&M to get started. Then, some will move to mail order, others will still prefer face-to-face interaction and taking something home (live or otherwise) - *today*. That's human nature.

Jenn

 

[Race]

No guarantee means no confidence in your ability to secure, care for and sell a quality specimen. Pay a little more and sell for a little more and give the customers what they deserve. My goal for the next year will be to advise as many in the hobby as I can to only utelize the etailers and retailers who have a guarantee.
Selling a specimen is always a risk. No one, even the best can look at a specimen and know if will be alive tomorrow. The same is true of human patients. True health and life expectancy cannot be determined by a visual alone, especially in an animal with an unknown life history.. It is absolutely wrong to make the customer take the burden of this unfortunate cost. It is the sellers responsibility.

If you are taking the customers money then it is up to the seller to provide a guarantee for the specimen, period!

Jenn, you stated that you would not take this cost which to me means that you expect too much mortality to be able to fund. That in itself is a selfish crime to your customers. Buy quality livestock, take care of it better and provide the guarantee. It is o.k. to charge a little more for quality stock and care, just as I do. No cheapness here.

My mission is underway--------

BUYER BEWARE---NO GUARANTEE--- AVOID THE PURCHASE

I will come up with a better slogan but at least you now understand my point. Time to suck it up and make things right for the hobbyist. They have been RIPPED OFF off too long.

 

[JennM]

I never said I had NO guarantee. I'm just not willing to take on a 14-day guarantee when I do not have care, custody or control of a creature from the moment it leaves my store.

I hold my specimens for a time before I sell them - IMO that is my end of the guarantee. I guess we just see it differently.

So no, Race, I'm not willing to guarantee an animal if, when it leaves my store, the customer's kid might dump a whole can of fish food into the tank, fouling the water, or they have a power failure, or not enough water movement to adequately oxygenate the tank, if their temperature is 85 degrees, or a myriad of other variables that are beyond my control once the creature leaves my store.

Maybe you can afford to do that - eat the loss for "user error" but I can't and I won't. It has absolutely nothing to do with my integrity as a retailer, or the quality of my livestock. Even a perfect specimen will die if not properly provided for.

You've stated that you intentionally sell livestock at a loss. I suppose many of us sell at a loss, intentionally or otherwise, in order to provide competitive prices as well as proper husbandry while the specimens are in our care. If you break down the cost of the specimens, shipping, box, water, electric, salt, foods, staff to maintain systems etc., and yes, mortality, there is precious little profit to be had in livestock, period.

Everybody understands (or they should) that any money to be made is done through dry goods.

It's more or less a moot point anyway since I don't get too many people coming in and complaining that their fish died within two weeks for 'no apparent reason'. If that does happen, there's usually an explanation for it, and part of what I do is to determine what that reason was, and help the client correct it.

It's easy enough to throw a free fish the customer's way. It's quite another thing to help them assess *why*, and help them take corrective measures to prevent a future occurrence. That type of investment in customer service goes a lot further than shipping out another fish.

If a customer kills enough specimens through their own ignorance, without any help in correcting the issue, sooner or later they get tired of wasting their time, effort and money, and next thing you know, their tank is for sale in a yard sale, eBay or Craigslist. That doesn't help the hobby at all.

Helping hobbyists be successful *is* good for the hobby. They're inclined to stay in it that way.

JMHO as always,

Jenn

 

[dizzy]

No guarantee means no confidence in your ability to secure, care for and sell a quality specimen. Pay a little more and sell for a little more and give the customers what they deserve. My goal for the next year will be to advise as many in the hobby as I can to only utelize the etailers and retailers who have a guarantee.
Selling a specimen is always a risk. No one, even the best can look at a specimen and know if will be alive tomorrow. The same is true of human patients. True health and life expectancy cannot be determined by a visual alone, especially in an animal with an unknown life history.. It is absolutely wrong to make the customer take the burden of this unfortunate cost. It is the sellers responsibility.

If you are taking the customers money then it is up to the seller to provide a guarantee for the specimen, period!

Jenn, you stated that you would not take this cost which to me means that you expect too much mortality to be able to fund. That in itself is a selfish crime to your customers. Buy quality livestock, take care of it better and provide the guarantee. It is o.k. to charge a little more for quality stock and care, just as I do. No cheapness here.

My mission is underway--------

BUYER BEWARE---NO GUARANTEE--- AVOID THE PURCHASE

I will come up with a better slogan but at least you now understand my point. Time to suck it up and make things right for the hobbyist. They have been RIPPED OFF off too long.

Race are you suggesting that wholesalers should offer retailers a 14-day guarantee as well? What's the difference really? Your ideas are very dangerous to the industry as we cannot all afford to sell livestock at loss like you do.
Mitch

 

[JennM]

Agreed, Mitch.

Jenn

 

[CarlC]

Jenn I got into this hobby after spending the last 15 years working with Chameleons and Day Gecko's. I've imported my own CITES animals, traveled most of Europe collecting new bloodlines from other breeders, I even traveled to Madagascar to study a particular species in the wild to find out how and under what conditions this species lived. I was the first in the US to breed and hatch many species once thought impossible to keep let alone breed. I am by no means the average animal keeper.

I got into Saltwater fish because I needed a break. It isn't nearly the challange that Chameleons were.

I have high demands and expectations of who I buy from. If you won't give the fish I am buying the same respect and care I give them you don't get my business. Race and Kevin get my business because they have shown me they feel the same as I do. If I spend $300 or $400 on fish from them I know that all efforts were put into that fish to make sure my money is well spent. Longterm care is my goal. Longterm is a word you don't here mentioned when talking to people at mom and pops or the regular LFS.

I guess what I am saying is the average everyday keeper seems more than happy to keep replacing the $10 fish they are buying at the local store and the store is more than willing to keep selling them the poor quality.

Its not just livestock. The quality of hard goods offered to the average customer is usually poor. I am sure Tetra products have a place in the hobby but do you need to stock the whole line of products? Most aren't worth what ever they cost. Atleast wipe the dust off them once and awhile.

If Dr. Mac got more into fish yes I would drive the four or five hours to see what he has to offer. That Fish Place is an hour drive. I am there once a week buying supplies. The have a great selection. I very seldon look at their livestock though because I know what to expect. I am sure hiring a bunch of Marine Biologists is big selling point for some customers but for me a Marine Biologist who has never even seen a reef or worked in a marine enviorment futher south then the Chesapeake is useless.

For me I need Fed Ex to continue to deliver.

Carl

 

[JennM]

Well I guess the hobbyists' attitude there is different from that here. Long term care is my goal for hobbyists and their charges.

Jenn

 

[Anonymous]

Its this kind of extreme example that makes me wary. Any evidence of this happening more with a long guarantee than from LFS?

Here is a prime example of the health of the live stock taking back seat to the no fault guarantee and lower shipping cost option winning out over the animals interests.

TODAY Atlanta Reef Cub:

This order was not without losses. We were shorted a chromis and I took the two bags that had dead and dying chromis. This was my first time, and I'm sorry I messed up on a few things. I probably should have paid $10 to upgrade the shipping, but I just didn't know. I figured an order delivered yesterday would be fine if I received it today.

http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/s ... 137&page=4

Notice the customer opted for the cheaper (longer) shipping option knowing full well that any losses would be covered by the sender.

I don't think thats what happened. They did the longer shipping because they thought it would be fine, not because if the stuff didn't make it they could get new stuff. The actually seem very bummed the chromis didn't make it, and are beating themselves up for not choosing the faster shipping.

 

[Anonymous]

Thales, I think you misunderstand my use of the word cheap. Maybe I should have said lessens the value of, instead of cheap. Sorry you do not see my point, but that is my opinion. Same point on a 14-30 day guarantee, it lessens the value in the long term in my opinion.

I just don't understand the reasoning behind the opinion. I don't see how selling livestock at not cheap prices but not worrying about charging even more money for them as a way to get people to buy dry goods lessens the value of the animals. I can see how you think the guarantee can do it, I'm just not sure how much it actually happens or how much it happens compared with regular LFS.