Does the hobby die without FedEx?

[dizzy]

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthrea ... id=1210067

by sirjohn [/i]
I have to say, Dr. Foster's posts are an eye-opener for me. While I knew that one day the ability to stock our tanks with all sorts of tropical fish and corals could go the way of the dodo, I had no idea of the situation with FedEx or that UPS had decided not to make live deliveries for liveaquaria.com As Dr. Foster states, such a development could make what we enjoy today a thing of the past much quicker than anyone one of us could imagine. And this will affect online retailers as well as your LFS.

So I have to say I agree with Dr. Foster and I for one will think twice about posting any problem I've had with a shipper. Besides, what is the point anyways? When you deal with retailers like liveaquaria.com, they will guarantee that the livestock gets to us alive and stays alive for 2 weeks, or else they provide you with a 100% refund. That should sound good to everyone, unless you're one of those that's just looking for a freebie

The above was posted in the RC thread Caterham links to on page one. What it shows is how the guarantee is being used to effectively censor any discussion of loss of life due to "any" reason really. The guarantee is like an abortion, it makes the problem go away so no one will be aware it happened. It is not unlike a Michael Jackson type buying off his accusers.
Mitch

PS Edited to add RC link.
Mitch

 

[JennM]

Does anybody have a direct link to the RC thread? I can't find it and their search feature doesn't work for me.. "disabled" (read:I didn't buy a membership there!).

I'd like to read more and see what others are saying.

Jenn

 

[dizzy]

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthrea ... id=1210067

 

[Race]

For a little more eye candy, see my latest on RC. Thank you for all of your ideas.

Mitch, I will let you bring this one over, I do not want to risk being commercial.

LOL ----like Brutus on the Popeye cartoon !!!

 

[JennM]

Alrighty then.

I read some of the thread - not all of it - but I get the gist of it.

I worked in the courier industry for 11 years in my other life, in fact while I worked for a small rush delivery company, we used to be shown FedEx training videos

So the initial complaint was that a driver erroneously left a box at the wrong address. The reality in the courier business, whether it's FredEx (industry joke), Ooops (UPS) or anyone else - it happens.

On one hand I can see FedEx or other carriers ceasing to agree to carry livestock if insurance claims are costing them more than what it's worth, knowing how efficient most of these companies are, it's highly unlikely to come to pass.

For what it's worth, I don't sell livestock online but a researcher friend was in a few weeks ago and asked me to ship some frags to an associate of his in a small town in CA. Cost an arm, a leg and some vital organs, but FedEx had it to him the next morning before 10:00 AM. That was my first and only experience being the sender of livestock via this method, but one of my suppliers regularly sends me fish via FedEx. Never had a problem. I even receive perishable fish food products that way and never a problem.

Having said that... when I went to ship the coral frags, I took the box to my local mom and pop authorized FedEx dropoff point and he winked at me and said, "These are plants, right?" When I corrected him and told him they were colonies of animals, he winked again, and repeated, "These are PLANTS, right?" Meaning that I had to fib and say they were plants, not animals, in order for him to ship them. I winked, asked for insurance, and sent the package - which arrived promptly and in good order. Dunno what was up with that but OK.

As a LFS I do not rely on any courier service to receive my livestock. It's almost all shipped by air, and if the current supplier that uses FedEx couldn't anymore, airport to airport would do me just fine.

I could see this being a problem for LFS in remote areas far from an airport, or ones not close to a major center, as connecting flights can be a nightmare - but what did LFS do before widespread door-to-door delivery?

I don't think the hobby will die if the major couriers decide not to ship livestock, but those of us LFS using airport to airport won't be bothered at all, IMO.

I daresay that Race's door-to-door mail order business will be bothered by it though. Not too many hobbyists will want to head down to their local cargo depot at their nearest airport, I don't think, and the price of a single box shipment (versus multiple box shipments that LFS typically receive) would make the cost prohibitive.

Will the hobby die if FedEx and others decide to turf livestock deliveries? Doubtful. Will the LFS benefit? Most likely.

However I'd be very surprised if the major carriers opted not to carry livestock anymore... the benefits of the volume they carry far outweigh the occasional logistical snafu that results in a claim. At best their insurance rates will go up, or they will refuse to insure livestock and it's at one's own risk - in which case the risk to the entity offering that fabulous guarantee increases.

JMHO...

Jenn

 

[Race]

Go to the Liveaquaria.com forum---do not pass go.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Its this kind of extreme example that makes me wary. Any evidence of this happening more with a long guarantee than from LFS?

Here is a prime example of the health of the live stock taking back seat to the no fault guarantee and lower shipping cost option winning out over the animals interests.

TODAY Atlanta Reef Cub:

This order was not without losses. We were shorted a chromis and I took the two bags that had dead and dying chromis. This was my first time, and I'm sorry I messed up on a few things. I probably should have paid $10 to upgrade the shipping, but I just didn't know. I figured an order delivered yesterday would be fine if I received it today.

http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/s ... 137&page=4

Notice the customer opted for the cheaper (longer) shipping option knowing full well that any losses would be covered by the sender.

I don't think thats what happened. They did the longer shipping because they thought it would be fine, not because if the stuff didn't make it they could get new stuff. The actually seem very bummed the chromis didn't make it, and are beating themselves up for not choosing the faster shipping.

Clearly they new that longer shipping duration would not translate into less stress on the fish.
They were willing to risk the fish to save money. If you dont understand how a no fault guarantee plays into the mind of the consumer.... then you have never seen the returns on house plants at Home Depot the day after the first frost of Winter.
Its the stores fault "they the customer forgot to bring the tropical plants in from the cold"
Sure now that they got burned they will think twice the next time, but thats precisely why letting the customer make the decision does not work out for the animal. The customer has no Idea until they get burned.
All too often in this hobby the live stock pays the price for the customers sophomoric confidence.

 

[Kalkbreath]

Go to the Liveaquaria.com forum---do not pass go.

Race, can you support the notion that Quality Marine should offer its brick and mortar customers a 14 day period of confidence that the live stock they send is so well prepared for tank hood that the wholesaler stands behind thier product both to the retailer and the hobbyist?

 

[dizzy]

I certainly think the 14-day guarantee could be offered in the form of an extended warranty. Offer the fish with two prices and let the customers decide if they want the 14-day guarantee or not.
Mitch

 

[Race]

No, I am selling to the consumer and that is my responsibility. No need for Wholesalers to offer me a guarantee. My fish will live or I will not purhase from QM. By the way QM is one of the best.

The contract is between me and the hobbyist and it is MY responsibility to bear that cost. QM nor any of the 5 or so Wholesalers that I use are not in my equation as far as the guarantee. I pressure all of them to use good shipping and ship quality fish or I will take my millions of dollars worth of livestock purchases elsewhere. I think they get the message.

Do the right thing, trust your customers and offer them a 14 day guarantee----Race

 

[Caterham]

Kalk,

Is that to say that Quality Marine is providing fullfillment for Race?

Mitch has mentioned before that the only way that can be justified is to offer drop shipping services direct to hobbyists for all of their accounts.

 

[dizzy]

The contract is between me and the hobbyist and it is MY responsibility to bear that cost. QM nor any of the 5 or so Wholesalers that I use are not in my equation as far as the guarantee. I pressure all of them to use good shipping and ship quality fish or I will take my millions of dollars worth of livestock purchases elsewhere. I think they get the message.

Race I think you just made a good case for why most of pee-ons are better off not using a QM type wholesaler. We don't have the million dollar muscle to make them send us their best stuff. So they send it all to you and we get the left overs.
Mitch

 

[Race]

Quality marine does some of our shipping. I believe Dr. Mac uses SDC or so I heard. He can answer that. Not sure of the others but one way or another I believe that about every Wholesaler is or has been involved. Some will lie though.
If you want the absolute best fish and coral, I would take a good look at QM. Their specimens will hold up to my new trend of a 14 day guarantee. For the guarantee to work--you have to spend more and buy the best, then take good care of it.

I think that my customer friendly trend is catching on already----Race

 

[Race]

Mitch,
It really would be stupid to not buy the best livestock because of my involvment. I buy from virtually all of the Wholesalers and QM is the most fair to the retailers--- which is why they force me to use the others. I pressure all of them, as it should be.

 

[Kalkbreath]

But wait I'm confused?
if we buy from the same suppliers as you is it true that these suppliers like QM are sending us the same same quality or not?

please clarify?

 

[Race]

Mitch,
I might also add that my next push will be to educate the hobbyist as to which Wholesalers generally have the quality supplies. There may come a day when they will be asking you where you get your livestock and what steps were taken to ensure it's health. I have not yet figured out how to do this but I do intend on being the hobbyists ear and advocate here. Perhaps MAC will beat me to it, but I doubt it. That time will come after I pressure the 14 day guarantee to ensure the hobbyist is not taken advantage of any longer.
I am a fan of the hobby, not the industry--Race

 

[Race]

If you buy from QM you should be getting the same quality. I have never stated that QM sends me their best fish and none to the Retailers. They do not. Mitch said that and I think that he is wrong. If you purchase from QM, do not be afraid of the 14 day guarantee, it will help you. QM has the size and strength to satisfy some of my needs and all of yours. What I will say is that QM had better never send me their worst fish and you should not settle for that either. There are other outlets for those in the LA vicinity.

 

[Race]

Thank you for the dialogue. I have horse farm duties this evening so may or may not be able to respond in a timely fashion.
I will state that I think QM is one of the best if not the best. The industry would have to be a complete fool to not support them. They are the one that plays fair.

 

[Anonymous]

Its this kind of extreme example that makes me wary. Any evidence of this happening more with a long guarantee than from LFS?

Here is a prime example of the health of the live stock taking back seat to the no fault guarantee and lower shipping cost option winning out over the animals interests.

TODAY Atlanta Reef Cub:

This order was not without losses. We were shorted a chromis and I took the two bags that had dead and dying chromis. This was my first time, and I'm sorry I messed up on a few things. I probably should have paid $10 to upgrade the shipping, but I just didn't know. I figured an order delivered yesterday would be fine if I received it today.

http://www.atlantareefclub.org/forums/s ... 137&page=4

Notice the customer opted for the cheaper (longer) shipping option knowing full well that any losses would be covered by the sender.

I don't think thats what happened. They did the longer shipping because they thought it would be fine, not because if the stuff didn't make it they could get new stuff. The actually seem very bummed the chromis didn't make it, and are beating themselves up for not choosing the faster shipping.

Clearly they new that longer shipping duration would not translate into less stress on the fish.

How so? The quote above says they thought the fish would be fine the way they did - ' I probably should have paid $10 to upgrade the shipping, but I just didn't know. I figured an order delivered yesterday would be fine if I received it today.'

They were willing to risk the fish to save money. If you dont understand how a no fault guarantee plays into the mind of the consumer.... then you have never seen the returns on house plants at Home Depot the day after the first frost of Winter.

It looks to me like they made a mistake in thinking the fish would be fine with the longer shipping. No where do they say anything like 'lets order, if it dies big deal, we'll invoke the guarantee', you are assuming they didn't care about the lives of the fish. I am not willing to make such a damning assumption, and, from what they wrote, think they actually cared but made a mistake.

Sure now that they got burned they will think twice the next time, but thats precisely why letting the customer make the decision does not work out for the animal. The customer has no Idea until they get burned.
All too often in this hobby the live stock pays the price for the customers sophomoric confidence.

Sure, but that has nothing to do with a guarantee. Mistakes are made all the time because people don't know better. Its one of the problems with the hobby and learning through experience in general. I would be money that the next time they do an order, they will pay for the faster shipping.

 

[Race]

I think the customers deserve more credit than retailers give them. They are not uncaring, stupid individuals. Quite the contrary and I find them very honest as a whole. That is why I have chosen to help and represent them. They need a voice and I am beginning to give them one.