Drs. Foster and Smith in Target Stores Near You

[swsaltwater]

First off, I saw that it was only your branded stuff in your post, but knowing the greed that posseses people like you it won't end there. It's simply a foot in the door.

Second I am not apart of the AMDA. You know it's defunct. You just use it to make yourself look like a hero or something.

Third, I am finding a new way, partnering up in a new aquaculture business. I see the oceans getting cut off or will be restricted to seriously less collecting in a few years, so the only survivers will be farmers. If you really want to affect change, make a profit and donate it to stop pollution in 3rd world countries and overfishing by japanese shipping vessels. Maybe fund a few fish farms (food wise). Thats what really exploits the oceans...........We are simply a small part of what is hurting our reefs and the ocean could easily sustain our hobby if it were not for the other factors.

 

[Race]

SW,
Do your homework. I have spent over 1 million dollars of my own money funding a coral farm. My wife and I also gifted half a million dollars to Michigan State University to benefit animal welfare. For 6 years I have also given up millions of dollars in profits by supplying the trade with nonprofit livestock. About 22 million dollars worth of fish, coral and hard goods,-- my cost-- per annum.

How much have you spent of your own money protecting the ocean's resources or helping animals in general? Along with dishonesty I am not too keen on ignorance.

Race

 

[swsaltwater]

I know what your coral farm is for, it's what you will use to put the wholesalers out of business.........The 22 Million was only spent to put the competition out of business so once the wholesalers and the retailers are done you will have control. This giving back stuff is BS.

 

[Race]

I need the Wholesalers as that is who supplies me. I did not say that I spent 22 million--- I bought 22 million. Any other bright ideas ?

 

[Race]

This thread is no longer informative and I will not comment more. You get the gist of things and I will leave the rest to the press releases. Thank you for the dialogue.--------- Race

 

[swsaltwater]

I guess technically you "bought" fish, coral, inverts, and drygoods. You "spent" 22 million.

 

[Race]

No, I spent millions more in marketing, labor and the such. I should have been more clear. Now I am gone.

 

[Anonymous]

milzed

 

[Anonymous]

milzed

 

[Race]

Edited by Race

 

[gdw]

Greetings All !

... only your branded stuff in your post ...

The history and "stuff" are actually a bit more interesting than that, and more "background" (consider the source) is presented here:

About Us: Drs. Foster & Smith Products
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/general.cfm?gid=327

About Us: Drs. Foster & Smith History
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/general.cfm?gid=322

Doctors Foster and Smith Aquaculture Coral & Marine Life Facility
http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/gene ... agesid=377

... but knowing the greed that posseses people like you ...

ROTFL ! ... Can't the "greed" thing be leveled at every importer, manufacturer, distributor, retailer and etailer of products directly & indirectly related to the trafficking of marine ornamental specimens? Perhaps we all might get a bit more useful stuff out of this forum, and threads would stay open a little longer, if we relied less on cyber-telepathy ... and more on what is actually written. And no ... I'm not unaware of the sub-context and subtleties when folks with vested financial interests start threads. Intense suspicion seems reasonable ... not abuse. As the dynamics of the North American marine ornamental industry continue to evolve, I find what Drs. Foster & Smith is doing to be fascinating.

JMO ... no offense ... your mileage will vary.

... the oceans getting cut off or will be restricted to seriously less collecting in a few years ...

Haven't people been saying this since the late 1960's ? My take is the economic-political-environmental mix won't really begin to shift (although disruptions will pop up periodically) until the northern-latitude reefs start to crash about 20 years from now (as a result of the increase in pCO2 in NSW) .. only then will denial be unsustainable.

... fund a few fish farms (food wise). ...

Aren't fish food farms (... and let's not forget shrimp farms ...) as implimented in the Third World one of the most intense anthropogenic disruptions in their locality? Not that feeding folks isn't a good thing.

... We are simply a small part of what is hurting our reefs and the ocean could easily sustain our hobby if it were not for the other factors.

Agreed ... but we're going to be blamed anyway.

Just my takes, which, along with $3.95, will get you a tall Cafe Mocha at Starbucks.

:wink:





Oh ... wait ... there was a reason I came out from the lurking shadows. Some questions ...

... partnering up in a new aquaculture business...

Despite a multi-decade history of relative "failure" of this model (with a few exceptions), I see this as one of the more interesting re-discoveries of the retail segment of the industry in the last 5 years. A few questions for the regulars of this forum ...

Anyone else see such a partnering as potentially "helpful"?
How does the re-emergence of such a movement impact B&M LFS?
How does the re-emergence of such a movement impact marine ecommerce operations (in all their various forms)?
How does this impact the exporter-importer mix?

Clearly the LFS-importer-manufacturer/distributor mix of the North American marine ornamental industry has been evolving as a result of the injection of ecommerce ... how does this play out 5 years from now? ... 10 years from now?

On another related tangent ... how can the internet be used to attract, educate, and retain entry-level hobbyists?




TIA ... let the beatings begin.
8O

 

[swsaltwater]

Actually aquaculture can be much more profitable then a B&M shop by a long shot. I did not buy a LFS to get rich. In fact I new it would be hard to simply make a living at it. Greed did not motivate me, I was simply tired of the corp. world...............I held a 9-5 the first year I owned the shop.

How can any sain person find it fascinating that a rich person is willing to sell stuff at cost/lose money to tank most of the industry over a personal vendetta with a defunct organization?

What I find even more rediculous is that the wholesalers/trans-shippers support him, it is them that will suffer when B&M's go under. I think they are seeing that now as it appears it's so slow right now that they all are telemaketing to me. Thats a new one. I guess online sales can't sustain them when the LFS get slow, so I hope they see what happens to them when LFS go under for good. 50% of my sales are from tanks I set up and 90% of those customers will not shop anywhere else or even get a tank without a LFS to help them. They don't want to DIY, they want someone to do it for them so they can simply enjoy the view. I service and stock the tanks personally. This is the same model as most LFS use and the internet has no way to do that. Unless you train the fedex guy to setup tanks, clean tanks, and acclimate fish. This is a lot of tanks that would not exist at all without B&M's. I really don't think Race or the wholesalers know just how many would not be created if there are no shops.

 

[gdw]

Greetings All !

How can any sain person find it fascinating ...

When did I become sane? ... 8O ... :twisted:
It's the mix of retail-ecommerce-aquaculture that I find so interesting ... :wink:

.. is willing to sell stuff at cost/lose money ...

I don't concede the premise ... I've never seen his books.

... to tank most of the industry over a personal vendetta with a defunct organization?

Despite being relatively aware of the historical drama here and on RC (... if you miss an episode you really do get lost, don't you? ... hehe ...), I remain unclear as to actual motives.

... 50% of my sales are from tanks I set up and 90% of those customers will not shop anywhere else or even get a tank without a LFS to help them. They don't want to DIY, they want someone to do it for them so they can simply enjoy the view. I service and stock the tanks personally. This is the same model as most LFS use and the internet has no way to do that.

Agreed. This parallels my experiences as well ... hence my questions. 95% of the entry-level customers I've worked with during the last decade have never heard of either RDO or RC ... and they would have no interest in dealing with either community if they had. This percentage has been pretty static. It's only if they stay in the hobby that a shift in buying patterns occurs. I was just curious what others are thinking about all this (Drs Foster & Smith being but one small part of the dynamic). It seems to me that there are some historically novel market niches evolving in terms of how consumers enter the marketplace, and the pathways by which customers might be retained as they advance to online dry goods purchases ... and I'm wondering how others may be responding to the evolution.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks to everybody that had a cool head and edited posts that may have been at odds with the RDO UA.

I think aquaculture is coming, that it is a good thing, and that we should all support it. I see no reason why aquaculture couldn't supply B&M.

I think people get into this industry for different reasons, and I think it is unfair to look down on those reasons if they aren't your reasons.

I don't think B&M are going to disappear. There are too many not internet savvy people and too many people who want a service to take care of their tanks and too many people who want it right now. I don't think anyone in any part of the business wants B&M's to vanish. I do think the different aspects of the industry are going to have to adapt to the new market, and that includes B&M.

In the SF Bay Area there are lots of LFS, but very few that carry any kind of selection of basics, including salt. To get a particular brand of salt, even a non obscure one like Reef Crystals or IO, a local would either find a store that has it (and probably have to drive 30 miles one way to get it), special order it (which means it might or might not actually show up in the next few weeks), and probably pay an over inflated price for it as LFS try to make more money any way they can. For the hobbyist, it becomes very frustrating to try to support the LFS, but to not be able to get the items they need in a timely manner. Frustrations are pushed even higher by being told that the LFS has the item in stock, only to find after driving for 30-40 minutes that they really don't - an all to common occurrence. BTW, it isn't just salt, its test kits, skimmers, additives, food, pumps and lighting - most stores in this area have a very limited stock of dry goods. The local club tries very hard to support LFS, and does a pretty good job of it, but people aren't willing to drive all over the area in search of something they could have arrive at their door the next day for just about the same price they would pay at an LFS if the LFS happened to have the item.

If the internet savvy advanced hobbyist doesn't shop for drygoods at the LFS because they are more easily and more economically available online, then it seems that that advanced hobbyist isn't really the customer the LFS should be trying to attract. In the SF Bay area, it seems they have already stopped for the most part, at least in the area of dry goods, and rely more on trying to have flashy livestock on hand.

 

[naesco]

I agree that soon pretty much all livestock will be aquacultured.

Frag sales will be the norm with wild species restricted or prohibited.

Serious hobbyists go for quality product which is not availabe at most LFS which cater to the Nemo crowd.

On the other hand serious hobbyists prefer to carefully observe livestock rather than risk online disappointments.

Again thank you for your kind comments Catheringham.

Wayne Ryan

 

[Race]

Although I agree with much of what Wayne states, I do not believe that it is so simple.
Many very serious reefkeepers order livestock online. For the reasons mentioned, others choose not to. For most hobbyists, new and old, you cannot simply place them into a catagory such as Etail or Retail. Thankfully the majority do both. Furthermore, many are not loyal to any one segment entity. I have many customers who purchase from LiveAquaria as well as from other quality livestock Etailers and Retailers. No one company gets all of a hobbyists business.
As I stated, it is not simply Etail vs. Retail either as many customers use both. That fact is why we have expanded our canine and feline marketing to include retail. My plan is to serve the customer however they want to be served. I want to cater to their buying habits, not fight them. Retailers should expand into Etail and do the same. Petsmarts and Petco learned that long ago. There is more than enough room.

 

[swsaltwater]

lots of room in etail, just not enough hours in the day to run a LFS and website.

 

[Race]

SW,
Please do not forget that it took me 24 years to get to a point to attempt both etail and national retail. I was a self employed beekeeper when I paid my way through veterinary school. That opened the door. Things do not come easy. I guess that my humble beginnings is why I do not give a damn what someone in the industry thinks about me. My job is to do the best that I can for my employees and customers. Call it greed if you want--- but to me--- I have an obligation. Both depend on me to do things right. I will never let them down.

Etail is not always the answer either. Remember the sock puppet at Pets.com was put to sleep in it's first six months and they had more money than I have ever had and---- a Super Bowl ad to boot. I sponsored a Wisconsin Little League team while Petco owns a Major League stadium. Do not get intimidated and find your niche, the rest will come. Focus on your business and not that of others. That by the way was AMDA's demise, they let me get to them and fought etail rather than promoting retail. They should have just joined in with the times, instead they joined the "exstinked".

Race

 

[Race]

One more thing.
I am constantly disliked for selling livestock at a financial loss. Examine things well. My prices are not the cheapest and the difference is that I spend a huge amount in proper husbandry so that I may present a good product to the trade. The experts, the authors and the many lifers in this hobby will vouch for that. Most have personally examined my facilities. If I put a normal margin on these fish and corals then I could not compete price wise with the livestock that is being placed on the market without proper care. An inferior product, period.

Who is to blame here ? Is it me-- or the ones selling an inferior product at a good margin but an overall low cost and no customer support, guarantee or service. Bottom line here is that to sell the best livestock in today's environment, then it must be done at a loss. There is no other way as the overhead is simply too high. Just the nature of the beast.

I will take the blame if you choose but the educated know better--- Race

 

[Philip Root]

Race,

Last week I visted your Coral Farm, very nice no expense spared. What you did for MASNA was very appreciated, and admirable.

Congrats on your deal with Target.

Philip Root