Drs. Foster and Smith in Target Stores Near You

[rgbmatt]

I am curious if Thales ever saw first hand the holding system of Twilight Aquatics? Further, did you see their boat and diving gear? Did you ever go to their facility and see the operation first hand?

When they told you that they "caught as needed" did you ever witness this? Do you know, for an absolute fact, the true source of every live animal that they sold?

I did. Thales' post is spot-on. What's with this talk about you knowing the truth?

Unfortunately, that business model only works with higher-priced fish, for which there isn't enough demand to sustain a business long-term. For a venture like that to succeed, it'd probably have to be a wholesale element for the cheaper fish. Which is not something that people like because it's akin to letting hobbyists "cherry pick". And 'round and 'round we go.

What's really going on behind all these arguments is the natural evolution of the free market in which we participate. Online dealers are able to get more publicity than everybody else, while fish shop owners can provide real customer service and a tangible product. Eventually it'll all straighten itself out, no matter how loudly people complain about losing their own little piece of the pie.

 

[Anonymous]

I am curious if Thales ever saw first hand the holding system of Twilight Aquatics? Further, did you see their boat and diving gear? Did you ever go to their facility and see the operation first hand?

When they told you that they "caught as needed" did you ever witness this? Do you know, for an absolute fact, the true source of every live animal that they sold?

I did. Thales' post is spot-on. What's with this talk about you knowing the truth?

To me this is the most interesting/worst part of this whole discussion - the whole industry is he said/she said. Anytime anyone puts something forward, someone else says its not true. Knowing this, I am not surprised that most hobbyists don't care because when they try they get told they are wrong.

Unfortunately, that business model only works with higher-priced fish, for which there isn't enough demand to sustain a business long-term. For a venture like that to succeed, it'd probably have to be a wholesale element for the cheaper fish. Which is not something that people like because it's akin to letting hobbyists "cherry pick". And 'round and 'round we go.

It might just take an operation with deep pockets. I think there is a good chunk of hobbyists out there that would pay more for animals that are less likely to die.

What's really going on behind all these arguments is the natural evolution of the free market in which we participate. Online dealers are able to get more publicity than everybody else, while fish shop owners can provide real customer service and a tangible product. Eventually it'll all straighten itself out, no matter how loudly people complain about losing their own little piece of the pie.

+1
All b&m's, not just LFS, are having the same issues.

 

[Anonymous]

Sure are. Bookstores starting crying YEARS before the MO B&M's cried foul. Heck, they even made a block buster movie over that very thing years back starring Tom Hanks, again, before the MO B&M's really started crying foul

 

[Race]

Veterinarians cried foul when pharmacies began selling prescription dog and cat medications. Human Doctors cried foul when pharmacies came to be and the Doctor's office stopped dispensing. Pharmacists cried foul when Merck began it's "Medco through the mail selling". Eye Doctors' cried foul at Lens Crafters. Everyone cries foul when their turf is invaded.
I am an old hand at this as it has been my life for 24 years. In time it all evolves and the end user is better off. The rest of us have to adapt or find another way to make a living.

 

[Anonymous]

Vets also cried foul when companies like PetMed came on the scene Vets also cried foul when MedVet came on the scene and are still crying foul over it.

Like you said, some things require you to adapt. None of this is going away anytime soon. Maybe internet taxes will be in the future, dunno, sounds reasonable though. I'd rather pay sales tax and know it's going local/state then higher federal taxes.

 

[Azial]

I apologize if I have only lurked until now. However I find it troubling this whole discussion. I bought my first tank from Drs. Foster and Smith and nearly all of my equipment. I prefer to shop online as a matter of course because it gives me the ability to compare on the fly and not have the agenda of my 2 local B&M store's advice to complicate the issue.

I find Kalk's posts largely repugnant in voice, and I would be shocked if a store owner made me bring fish or water back to the store. If it were explicitly written into a stay alive guarantee I would certainly comply, as that's what I agreed to when buying the fish. But to force me to do something like that because he didn't believe me, it would make me walk out and not come back. Assuming your customers are lieing is the first way not to succeed. Sure they do, but it's YOUR cost of doing business. It certainly hasn't hurt Race there.

Teaching customers makes no difference if it's online, in person or in book/test/forum format, it's still teaching. A Little League argument is moronic at best. They have nothing to do with each other and is just as much sour grapes from a smaller business competitor to a larger.

All Aquatic businesses should teach their customers how to properly take care of their charges, and to label Drs. Foster and Smith as a non-teaching, non-productive member of the community is irresponsible at best and a flat out lie at worst. I commonly use Liveaquaria for care tips, compatability and general advice.

At my local B&M I get advice that is sometimes good but generally either extremely dated (You can't have a Reef under 55 Gallons) or just plain wrong (you can have a Blue tang in a 29-55 while it's small!). So to generalize all online store (Both good and bad) as non-productive is just as wrong as saying that B&M only care for their bottom line and want to sell you each and every supplement you don't need and don't properly care for their fish or customers.

And finally... $120 for test kits? Sheesh I know where I am NOT buying test kits Kalk.. Maybe I should go onto Marine Depot, I bet they will give me a better price

 

[Anonymous]

But when someone so rich that they are willing to loose money for no other reason then to put the competition out of business it's not exactly fair market competition.

I am not buying from F&S until this question is answered. I was actually looking forward to buying from Target instead of paying S&H. I do buy a lot of pet supplies (We live in a jungle: A parrot, 12 Koi, 2 dogs, 4 SW fish tanks.) Plus, I run a website for UtahPonds.

I need my local B&M shops. I can't get frozen food online without paying a dorsal and pectoral fin. Plus, I need to be able to get stuff quick in emergencies. If an online site is trying to put my LFS's out of business, I will not order from them ever.

I always thought the internet might put a crimp in my LFSs profits but the thought that they would be able to run them out of business never occurred to me. This thread has enlightened me.

 

[Anonymous]

But when someone so rich that they are willing to loose money for no other reason then to put the competition out of business it's not exactly fair market competition.

I am not buying from F&S until this question is answered.

As previously pointed out in this thread, F&S livestock prices are higher than a lot of other etailers and higher or on par with LFS in my area. F&S drygood prices online are on par with any other online business.

I need my local B&M shops. I can't get frozen food online without paying a dorsal and pectoral fin. Plus, I need to be able to get stuff quick in emergencies. If an online site is trying to put my LFS's out of business, I will not order from them ever.

I don't think anyone is actually trying to put B&M's out of business intentionally. It may be a result of the changing marketplace, but I don't think anyone is thinking of ways to drive LFS out of business.

I always thought the internet might put a crimp in my LFSs profits but the thought that they would be able to run them out of business never occurred to me. This thread has enlightened me.

Online buying is putting lots of small business out of business. Shopping at target.com (or target in general) hurts hardware stores, linen stores and general stores. Shopping at Amazon.com kills book and video stores. Any online music purchases kills record stores.

By all means support your LFS, I do mine whenever I can.

 

[bobimport]

LOL even the most harmless posts on here get someone chewed up and spit out. Looks like Race just cant win.......
E sellers are a fact of life and are not going away anytime soon. Adapt or perish. look at what happened to the tech giants of my lifetime. Polaroid Xerox and AT&T.

Bob

Ps Race when it gets about 10 below come on down to Miami. I will take you to Joes for stone crabs. Oh and bring whats his name with you

 

[Anonymous]

SW,
For 6 years I have also given up millions of dollars in profits by supplying the trade with nonprofit livestock.

So, you are not profiting at all on livestock? You are able to pay your costs and make money by selling livestock with no profit?

 

[Anonymous]

I am constantly disliked for selling livestock at a financial loss.

Hmmm, I think I don't quite understand how this works....

 

[Race]

If you want to sell high quality livestock online,---- it will be done at a loss. The overhead to sell quality stock far exceeds that of selling poor quality livestock. As Thales mentioned, do not get confused. I do not sell livestock at a cheap price, rather my overhead in labor and cost of purchasing the best livestock keeps it unprofitable.

A high quality operation such as mine cannot compete with the low budget businesses out there,-- many selling an inferior product. I will never compromise livestock quality and customer dissatisfaction for profit.

Seahorse,
I made my living first as a beekeeper, second as a practicing veterinarian and for 24 years manufacturing and selling pet products. I am entitled to a hobby and mine is the livestock industry. I am passionate about it and a being a perfectionist of sorts----I will do it correctly at all costs.

 

[GTR1]

Actually it's the drygoods suppliers that are making up the difference in the livestock margins. If these guys only knew how to stick to there own price sheets they could make some money. :lol:

They set the retail price of their own products with the discounts they offer. The B&M does'nt nor does the etailer that gets them to knuckle under.

SteveU

 

[Kalkbreath]

E sellers are a fact of life and are not going away anytime soon. Adapt or perish.

Sure looks that way, but consider this:
1.)The economy is full swing
2.)The stock market better then ever
3.)Lowest unemployment even with the record border crossings
4.)etc etc etc.

But the hobby seems to be shrinking?

Sales are down both at livestock wholesalers and at the dry gooders Central & Royal .

Livestock Wholesalers are barely making it through the Summers.

And If we take new store start ups out of the picture,(because its new money like SBA loans (not profits) ....wholesalers are selling much less livestock then even five or six years ago.

Take a look at Online attendance here at RDO and RC.
Only half the people browsing the boards at any given time as there were a few years ago!

The hobby is shrinking even in a great economy. Imagine whats in store when a recession hits?

The wholesalers are reaping the rewards of selling out to the etailers.
instead of supporting the life blood of the hobby.

 

[Race]

Consumers are driving the market trends. Many no longer want to purchase at retail in Al Gore's new internet age. Wholesalers are adjusting to this demand.

No question it is going to be bloody but the industry must adjust to the demand, just as in every other world and domestic market. In business it is not wise to spend money attempting to change buying habits---it is futile and adjusting to them is more wise.

The aquarium industry is being discussed here as if it is something unique. It is not and will be subject to all of the same pressures and demands as any other business venture. Adjust to the times or you are history.

 

[Anonymous]

I wonder if the B&M's go away, the hobby will have less new people coming in. I am not sure that the (plastic sponge bob) fish tanks at Petco will entice them enough to want to even try it.

Will the old guys (us) be able to keep the hobby sustained? Of course, but will we get the new innovations and the like to keep us interested?

 

[Anonymous]

IT's very hard to compete with computer games that don't die under poor water conditions. Fewer and fewer young ones are getting into this hobby. This industry really needs a national voice of which it doesn't have for more then numerous reasons. I suspect what Race and others are doing via the national advertising deal he's mentioned will bring in more newbies then ever before. While it will benifit DFS, it will benifit the ENTIRE industry as a whole IMO. Complain about his prices all you want, but when this hits you'll owe him some thanks

 

[Race]

The assumption that retail is what gets todays hobbyist into the game is a wrong assumption--- which is the beginning of a failed business plan.

Whether one purchases Montana Black Angus cattle (as I did yesterday), a new show dog, kitten, coral, fish, car, tractor or whatever, it mostly begins by learning on the internet-- before all else. That is what I am banking on in my business plan. Ten years ago NO,---- today,YES.

If you assume that in todays world the human race does not rely more and more on the internet as their INITIAL learning tool--- then I believe that you are wrong. At least some local fish stores are failing because they are ignoring the internet and how it has changed buying habits. They are still under the false belief that people need the LFS to enter the hobby. Those days are over just as you no longer need a veterinarian to sell you a dog wormer.

Kind of odd that the Wholesalers saw this coming before the retailers and their wonderful "retail organization" did. I do not understand it.

 

[Anonymous]

Will you sell frozen food at Target?

 

[Anonymous]

Will you sell frozen food at Target?

I buy my frozen food in bulk once a year and split with another tank owner. It allows me to get it at near wholesale prices. LFS charges triple what I pay.