Not just an Asian issue

[IconicAquariums]

Gresham,

You'd still require CITES permits for shipments that travel from Canada to the States. Doesn't speak highly of the American porous border if these shipments are allowed in.

People are driving across and bringing the corals back too, so even though there is CITES and it can be obtained, the chain is bypassed.

 

[devils advocate]

People are driving across and bringing the corals back too, so even though there is CITES and it can be obtained, the chain is bypassed.

Understood, but which direction are you speaking. If the direction is from Canada to the States, which I understood Gresham's point to be, then to label one border porous and the other not, makes no sense. Even if product is in Canada "illegally", then it is still up to the American authorities to ensure that it doesn't cross into the States without proper documentation.

If it is the other direction, from the States to Canada, then yes, there are issues. I'm sure that this happens more often than not, especially with the proximity of the majority of Canadians to the border and the new found strength in their dollar.

 

[devils advocate]

People are driving across and bringing the corals back too, so even though there is CITES and it can be obtained, the chain is bypassed.

Understood, but which direction are you speaking. If the direction is from Canada to the States, which I understood Gresham's point to be, then to label one border porous and the other not, makes no sense. Even if product is in Canada "illegally", then it is still up to the American authorities to ensure that it doesn't cross into the States without proper documentation.

If it is the other direction, from the States to Canada, then yes, there are issues. I'm sure that this happens more often than not, especially with the proximity of the majority of Canadians to the border and the new found strength in their dollar.

 

[IconicAquariums]

It seems more AUS & JAP corals originate from CAN, and while I'm sure some are brought up, there doesn't seem to be as much action.

I agree that not one border is only to blame, but perhaps the smuggling wouldn't be as prevalent if the highly desirable corals without CITES didn't hit Canada to begin with.

 

[devils advocate]

Now that's assuming that all the highly desirable corals in Canada are there without CITES.

 

[IconicAquariums]

I'm not saying all of the corals - but alot of Japanese origin that enter the US market.

I've heard some US shops bragging about being able to drive over the border and cherry pick AUS shipments as well - and I know that on a whim a CITES permit isn't whipped up.

 

[dizzy]

Does anyone have any links to Canadian webs sites pushing these questionable corals? Perhaps we can start a campaign to clean up the corruption/loopholes in Canada. Wayne obviously isn't going to do anythig to clean up the mess in his own backyard.

 

[devils advocate]

So then American store owners are no better than Canadian store owners. Isn't it the responsibility of the importer, this being the American store owner, to ensure that all documentation is in place, including CITES permits? So why blame a Canadian when it is the American that is smuggling corals, in this example you give. If this is the case, then isn't the American border porous too?

 

[Anonymous]

Gresham,

You'd still require CITES permits for shipments that travel from Canada to the States. Doesn't speak highly of the American porous border if these shipments are allowed in.

Wayne,

I think the point that many people try to make is that instead of focusing your energy on the States, look to Canada where there are many issues that seemed to be resolved. Then when those are done, look once again at others. At least the States has the Lacey Act....what does Canada have?

I'm very well aware of the cyanide issue. It's no secret, dirty yes, but no secret.

Care to find and quote me where I said the US boarder wasn't porous either? I can find quite a bit of CITES voilations that wehre caught and dealt with in the US and only 2 public cases in Canada. Wonder why that is?

 

[IconicAquariums]

So then American store owners are no better than Canadian store owners. Isn't it the responsibility of the importer, this being the American store owner, to ensure that all documentation is in place, including CITES permits? So why blame a Canadian when it is the American that is smuggling corals, in this example you give. If this is the case, then isn't the American border porous too?

Both borders are porous, which is clear. You must be aware of the NON-CITES corals that are being bought, the owners are fully aware that there are no valid permits for the corals. Some of the US companies live on those species.

 

[naesco]

Gresham,

You'd still require CITES permits for shipments that travel from Canada to the States. Doesn't speak highly of the American porous border if these shipments are allowed in.

Wayne,

I think the point that many people try to make is that instead of focusing your energy on the States, look to Canada where there are many issues that seemed to be resolved. Then when those are done, look once again at others. At least the States has the Lacey Act....what does Canada have?

I'm very well aware of the cyanide issue. It's no secret, dirty yes, but no secret.

Care to find and quote me where I said the US boarder wasn't porous either? I can find quite a bit of CITES voilations that wehre caught and dealt with in the US and only 2 public cases in Canada. Wonder why that is?

Canadians are more law abiding.

 

[devils advocate]

When will the Canadian porous boarder end? Don't have any CITES left, that's OK, Canada will import it and send it to you in the States. Japanesse corals, sure, get them via Canada.

Gresham - I guess I misunderstood your point. In only pointing out that one can obtain rare corals without permits in Canada, to me, implies that only the Canadian border is porous. Sorry about that.

With respect to CITES violations, is it possible that the Canadian officials only publicize larger cases? It may not be proceure to publicize all charges against importers who are in contravention of CITES regulations.

 

[Anonymous]

Gresham,

You'd still require CITES permits for shipments that travel from Canada to the States. Doesn't speak highly of the American porous border if these shipments are allowed in.

Wayne,

I think the point that many people try to make is that instead of focusing your energy on the States, look to Canada where there are many issues that seemed to be resolved. Then when those are done, look once again at others. At least the States has the Lacey Act....what does Canada have?

I'm very well aware of the cyanide issue. It's no secret, dirty yes, but no secret.

Care to find and quote me where I said the US boarder wasn't porous either? I can find quite a bit of CITES voilations that wehre caught and dealt with in the US and only 2 public cases in Canada. Wonder why that is?

Canadians are more law abiding.

Wayne, I guess you just decided to overlook this statement/question so I'm going to leave it highlighted for you. And BTW not meant as a bash of any kind towards Canada, just towards the self-appointed moral concience of the Industry. Geeze Wayne where were you? How could this happen in your own backyard? :roll:

Seems like there's a lot more to be done than posting "Holier than Thou" posts here.

 

[midgetwaiter]

As a Canadian who imports MO a couple times a week prehaps I can answer some of these questions.

Question;
HOW does one even import with no permit?

Depends really. Obviously a CITES II item like live rock does not require an import permit only an export permit from the country it is shipped from. Commonly a US one if buying from a large wholesaler.

How can they be released without a permit?

You go to customs and present your documents. They ask "Any CITES"? You say no and they don't check. Not all shipments are inspected but frankly this is a pretty risky gamble.

How does Canadas fish and wildlife let thousands and thousands of pounds of live rock in time after time with no permits in the document packet?

Well it probably comes down to the customs officer not checking the shipment. I have a recurring problem with Air Canada shipments that route through Toronto. The pricks remove the document packets for some reason and then put them on the next flight, which usually lands after the cargo office closes. We've had a lot of stuff sit overnight because of that. I never get my stuff out without ORIGINAL copies of the docs though.

Just what kind of import authority do they have up there that does nothing for years and then plays "gotcha" on someone "trained" to do it that way thru consistant bureaucratic negligence?

Come on man, they found something suspicious and then investigated and laid charges. Yeah they really should have got him right away but like I said not all shipments are inspected.

If the importer is a smuggler, seems like the fisheries were incompetent and oblivious. So much so as to suggest there were no issues worth watching out for.

The department of fisheries and the CFIA (Food Inspection Agency) don't regulate this trade except in certain cases like the Glowfish a couple years ago. Totally a Customs and Border Agency thing.

If ya leave the door wide open long enough, people can understandably get the impression that the casual in and out traffic is OK.
And futhermore, if you comply perfectly, would anyone notice?
Steve

This is a pretty big assumption. I doubt the customs guys a Winnipeg do a whole lot of this so it could have come down to lack of training. If I have one gripe about Customs it's a lack of training for the officers in this specific area and as a result a lack of consistency in their requirements for clearance. Just moving from Calgary to Edmonton I noticed a significant difference.

This brings up another point I'd like to make about this. While charges have been laid, I and just about every one I know that deals with this stuff here are in wait and see mode. For somebody just starting out in this business there is a huge lack of guidance from customs on requirements. An ask five people get seven different answers type of deal. If I wasn't lucky enough to have a couple very experienced guys mentor me though my first couple shipments I probably still be standing at customs five years later. I don't know the guy that was charged but he's a friend of a friend and everyone that knows him is shocked this happened. I would not be at all surprised to find out this was a case of ignorance rather than him trying to get away with something.

 

[midgetwaiter]

It kinda proves the speculation on many peoples parts that Canada has a VERY porous boarder when it comes to requiring CITES permits.

I'll remember this the next time I'm stuck in the airport at 2 am waiting for my docs. Everyone I know in this trade has had shipments held because of CITES problems. They could probably do better but to think they don't do anything is ridiculous.

As far as cases where there is stuff available in Canada that can't be imported into the US there is any easy explanation. There is a US law (part of the Lacey act I think) that puts additional regulations on the trade of endangered species. A prime example of this is the Asian Arrowannas that are farmed int he far east. The US law makes no distinction between farmed and wild caught CITES I animals so you can't import them. Canada allows for the distinction so provided you can prove the animals are farm raised (via implanted microchip) you can obtain an import permit for them.

I am pretty sure your AUS/JAP corals are a similar situation.

 

[dizzy]

They got micro chips in the Aussie/Japanese corals? 8O How can you read them?

 

[naesco]

The Canadian law is very strict here. The offense is one of strict liability.
The Crown need only prove the bare essentials to the case and the onus (called a reverse onus) falls on the accused to show that he did everything to comply with the law.
By way of example if there were no CITES permits the accused is liable unless there is a reasonable explanation. (for example and error in shipment)
If there was a CITES permit and the permit (given by the exporter) is fraudulent and the importer had nothing to do with the fraud, the accused would be acquitted as he relied on what he reasonably thought were valid certificates.
Wayne Ryan

 

[Anonymous]

It kinda proves the speculation on many peoples parts that Canada has a VERY porous boarder when it comes to requiring CITES permits.

I'll remember this the next time I'm stuck in the airport at 2 am waiting for my docs. Everyone I know in this trade has had shipments held because of CITES problems. They could probably do better but to think they don't do anything is ridiculous.

As far as cases where there is stuff available in Canada that can't be imported into the US there is any easy explanation. There is a US law (part of the Lacey act I think) that puts additional regulations on the trade of endangered species. A prime example of this is the Asian Arrowannas that are farmed int he far east. The US law makes no distinction between farmed and wild caught CITES I animals so you can't import them. Canada allows for the distinction so provided you can prove the animals are farm raised (via implanted microchip) you can obtain an import permit for them.

I am pretty sure your AUS/JAP corals are a similar situation.

So you think the US has restrictions placed on Aussie and Japanesse corals? Not the case, sorry.

 

[DBM]

I'm shocked to say the least. When I was an importer Jayson was a customer of mine. He was moving an incredible amount of of rock back then, I have a hard time believing he'd be dumb enough to try and bypass getting the appropriate CITES permits.

Joetbs, I'd like to know who here in Canada is importing Japanese corals, because I've not seen any.

 

[midgetwaiter]

[
So you think the US has restrictions placed on Aussie and Japanesse corals? Not the case, sorry.

Okay so why do people have to come here for them? I know for a fact that my best source for AUS corals brings them in legally.