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Elysia

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I am interested to know if anyone can comment on whether or not aquacultured species are handled and held differently by wholesalers than wild caught species.

For those who have stores, I am also interested to know if you hold your aquacultured species in dedicated systems or together/in-line with wild caught species, and why you made the decision you did.
 

Mthompson

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This could be an interesting thread. I bet most don't do anything different...even with all the benefits that would be seen.
 

swsaltwater

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I am a part owner in a Aquaculture business. We keep all our clowns ans seahorses in dedicated tanks by species. We also had a separate coral tank but that is soon to change with a remodel the aquaculture corals we produce will be separated. 5 gallon tanks seem to work best.
 

Mthompson

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Aquacultue almost always necessitates separate housing and systems. But what about LFS that receive shipments of both aquacultured and WC fish?

SW - Do you know where your fish end up?
 

swsaltwater

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Yes every one is question prior to purchase. Some will go to wholesalers, some to my customers at the shop/online. Right now a lot of the clowns are small so only nano tanks owners buy them with a few exceptions based on systems (no large flow or large overflow teeth etc......
 

Mthompson

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Good to hear, even though you might see a slight increase in sales if you were not so discriminating... :wink: ....

customer on phone: "My newest fish has been hanging out on my filter intake for the past two days. Is this natural and will he eventually start swimming around?"
 

Elysia

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I am interested in how the wholesaler and retailer treat the aquacultured animals that they sell.

Are you saying that you researched the wholesalers that you use, and each guaranteed that your aquacultured animals would have a system dedicated to them, and only them? They wouldn't be mixed with/their water wouldn't be mixed with the water of any other aquacultured animals nor any wild caught animals?
 

swsaltwater

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Elysia":2ruk3dra said:
I am interested in how the wholesaler and retailer treat the aquacultured animals that they sell.

Are you saying that you researched the wholesalers that you use, and each guaranteed that your aquacultured animals would have a system dedicated to them, and only them? They wouldn't be mixed with/their water wouldn't be mixed with the water of any other aquacultured animals nor any wild caught animals?

There is no way to ask a wholesaler to do this but I buy AC fish from them in the past prior to my going into the breeding biz and they were good. I screen customers which is where most teh death and inproper housings will happen. Can't introduce a 1" black perc to a tank with a adult maroon as an example of what people have wanted to do.
 

PeterIMA

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Elysia, I find your questions odd. I would like to know more about who you are and the motivation for your questions on this forum. Are you a hobbyist? Do you breed marine fish like seahorses or clownfish? Are you associated with a commercial operation?

Peter
 

Elysia

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I like the idea of aquacultured marine ornamentals. I believe that there are some definate benefits to purchasing aquacultured animals for a captive life in my tank over a wild caught animal. On a moral level, I feel better knowing that my purchase has not disrupted any sort of equilibrium in a wild environment. While some marine ornamentals may have a limited pattern of natural movement in the wild, certainly the effects of capture and transportation, as well as the confines of captivity and the artifical environment, put a great deal of stress on the organism. With an aquacultured animal, I know that their stress will be minimalized as they are already familiar with life in some sort of captivity, the foods of captivity, as well as the presence of human caretakers.

Another beneficial aspect of purchasing aquacultured marine ornamentals should be the likelihood that the animal will be parasite and disease free to the extent feasible. I hope that we can all agree that this is not the case with wild caught animals. At the same time, an aquacultured animal is unlikely to have the same sort of immunity to certain diseases and parasites as a wild animal, as the aquacultured animal is not subjected to such pathogens regularly. Thus I wonder if there is any benefit to the end consumer as far as the health of the aquacultured animal is concerned, if the aquacultured animal ends up going to a wholeseller (or LFS, but I know if it is happening if I see it at a LFS) and is being mixed within the same tank or same system as wild caught animals.

I do not know why you find this question odd. I care about the animals in my tanks, I want to know all I can in preparation for their purchase, and I want to use the power of my purchase wisely. I have read multiple forums, and in each there are posts complaining about the keeper who just does not seem to care about what is going on in their tank. But when someone asks a question beyond "Can I put a tang in my 20 gallon?" then suddenly you have to be questioned about your motivations?
 
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Elysia":1avppc3b said:
At the same time, an aquacultured animal is unlikely to have the same sort of immunity to certain diseases and parasites as a wild animal, as the aquacultured animal is not subjected to such pathogens regularly.

So, you only have aquacultured specimens in your tanks? No corals, no snails, no shrimps, no live rock, that have not been bred in sterile conditions? Because anything you add to your system will carry the pathogens your fish are not immune to.

What about adding macroalgae from a friends tank, a friend who has fish that are not sterily produced?

I do think that is a lofty and wonderful aspiration. You are an example to all reefers.
 

naesco

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Elysia, I think it is great that you strive to obtain aqua-cultured sources.

Very soon you will see that there a Cyanide Detection Test (CDT) in place forcing exporters and importers from the Philippines and Indonesia where the use of cyanide is rampant.

There will also be limits on the size of fish. Large angel collection will be prohibited because as we all know they have quit eating and perish. They
These adults should remain in the sea where they can breed and repair the damage that has been done to the reefs by industry.

Species like cleaner wrasse will also be prohibited. They have a low survival rate and are best left in the sea to do the good job they do.

Reeform will stop the collection of wild species where aquaculture is possible.

Keep on posting. Although industry doesn't give a damn other agencies read these posts too.
That is how you can change things for the betterment of the reefs and the creatures that dwell within.

Wayne Ryan
 

PeterIMA

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Elysia, The reason I find your questions odd are that aquacultured organisms (especially in sterile conditions) are rarely produced because they are too costly. There is also a limited number of species that can be bred from eggs as we previously discussed.

There are responsible collectors who use nets in Hawaii, Australia and other countries. With the proper handling and shipping practices these organisms are as healthy as any species produced by a commercial breeder. So, your assumptions that the fish are less healthy is false in many situations (not all).

As a person dedicated to saving coral reefs, I am helping the collectors establish sustainable livelihoods through the programs of EASTI and Telepak. Hence, I am not in favor of intensive culture in the importing countries. Consumers have a choice and I want them to choose net-caught or cultured species obtained from the countires of natural distribution. Only by helping the collectors/farmers can we save the habitats on which the trade depends. In the end, this is more cost-effective and sustainable.

Peter Rubec
 

naesco

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Dr. Rubec posted
"Only by helping the collectors/farmers can we save the habitats on which the trade depends. In the end, this is more cost-effective and sustainable."

This is so true.
We need to train them.
We need to provide them with proper netting and anything else they need to hold the fish pending distribution.
We need to pay them a fair price for their fish.
But most of all we need to stop the cyanide cartel and those stateside that import their fish by throwing the whole lot in gaol.
 

Elysia

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Aquacultured marine ornamentals are being produced in the United States, despite the costs. Places like Oceans, Reefs and Aquariums (ORA), Proaquatix, C-Quest, Tropic Marine Centre (TMC), Inland Aquatics, Seahorse Source, Seahorse Australia, and South Australian Seahorse Marine Services offer aquacultured marine ornamentals, including clownfish, gobies, dottybacks, blennies, seahorses, clams, and corals. I have no ethical problems supporting these companies even if the ornamentals they raise do not originate in the country of the company raises them. As mentioned, aquaculturing marine ornamentals is a tough business, thus I am willing to support such ventures regardless of where they are located. I assume that these companies add to the body of knowledge as far as raising marine ornamentals, and thus could be of benefit to any company wanting to aquaculture anywhere in the world.

Most of the companies in the states mentioned above sell only through wholesellers. I am simply interested in the way such animals are treated at the wholeseller's facilities, so that I can have a better idea of the health of the animal that I am purchasing.

Dr. Rubec, I am not saying that there are not responsible collectors of wild animals out there, who attempt to minimize the stress on both the animal collected and the environment the animal is collected from. I am simply saying that I believe that a wild caught animal is apt to be more stressed by captivity, at least initially, than an aquacultured animal, which does indeed compromise its general health. Additionally, the loss of that animal to the environment will effect that environment in some way, although it may be quite small.

As far as I am aware, I have no fundamental differences with you other than I am willing to support aquacultured fish that originate from importing countries. I am not trying to stop wild collection, although I do think that harmful methods like toxic chemicals, gas, and tnt should not be used. However, I understand that this is a complex situation, concerning more than just the marine ornamenatl trade, and affecting people's livelihoods and lives. I was only trying to explain why I chose aquacultured animals whenever possible, and thus why I am interested in how aquacultured animals are housed by wholesalers.

From what I know on the subject, the raising of larval or settlement stage juvenile ornamental fish by people who traditionally caught adult fish for the trade, while certainly not easy, might have the least amount of impact on both the environment and the health of the fish coming into captivity. It is certainly very interesting; currently I am not aware of anyway that alerts the consumer that their potential purchase was raised in this manner, however. Is this something that you and your groups will be working on?

If anyone out there can comment on whether or not aquacultured marine ornamentals are treated differently in wholeseller's systems, I would still appreciate knowing more about this.
 

PeterIMA

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Elysia, You may be willing to pay a premium (High) price for aquacultured fish produced in importing countries. Unfortunately, most hobbyists seek out the cheapest prices at the retail level. This has been discussed at length on this forum.

So, distributers and retailers selling net-caught fish and/or cultured fish (whether they come from the exporting countries or breeders in importing countries) have difficulty competing with retailers selling cheap fishes caught with cyanide. Hobbyists just don't get the fact that cyanide-caught poorly handled fish generally die. Hence, they are not really a good buy. But, they do it anyway.


Unfortunately, whatever is least costly is what sells.

Peter
 

Mthompson

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At least we don't have to worry about Wal-mart breaking in to the marine ornamental business, and 'rolling back' the prices! :P
 
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PeterIMA":oxqysxxt said:
Consumers have a choice and I want them to choose net-caught or cultured species obtained from the countires of natural distribution.

Where can consumers make such a choice?
 
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Anonymous

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Elysia":yzkwi3iv said:
Aquacultured marine ornamentals are being produced in the United States, despite the costs. Places like Oceans, Reefs and Aquariums (ORA), Proaquatix, C-Quest, Tropic Marine Centre (TMC), Inland Aquatics, Seahorse Source, Seahorse Australia, and South Australian Seahorse Marine Services offer aquacultured marine ornamentals, including clownfish, gobies, dottybacks, blennies, seahorses, clams, and corals.

If anyone out there can comment on whether or not aquacultured marine ornamentals are treated differently in wholeseller's systems, I would still appreciate knowing more about this.

Hey, you forgot Ocean Rider! And, they actually are in the US! Are you sure that these large breeders are not using "net pen" techniques? I know clam and coral farms are commonly placed in the ocean.

I do not see the benefit of treating aquacultured MO different than WC specimens. Can you expand this thought? I would rather have the MO exposed to ocean bacteria before they reach my tank, because they will be in my tank. What specific treatment should be different for aquacultured species?
 

Elysia

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Dr. Rubec, some of the American aquaculture companies mentioned produce marine ornamentals that are native to the American coastline, such as Hippocampus erectus, Gramma loreto, and various cardinal fish. Do you have an ethical issue with such breeding? I am simply curious. Again, I wish that a system was in place to let the end consumer know that a particular ornamental was part of a larval rearing program rather than removed as an adult from its habitat, but at the moment I am not aware of any such system.

Marine ornamentals found at a wholeseller's facility may come from almost any ocean, and it seems as though the workings of the exporters/importers/wholesellers is completely hush-hush. Thus, I have no way of knowing how the animals at the wholeseller's facility were collected and cared for prior to their arrival. I would assume that anyone with a tank would know the general health of the animals already in their care and would be actively observing their charges. It is likely that a home system would consist of fewer variables than that of a wholeseller's facility and gradual changes can be made to introduce the aquacultured animal to its new captive conditions while it is in quarantine (which should make it easier to deal with any problems if one should arise.)
 

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