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dizzy

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PeterIMA":2hhq41xq said:
The main problem is the rough handling and the high mortality associated with transportation of the Banggai Cardinals by boat back to Bali.
Peter

IIRC one of the wholesalers told me that some of the Bangaii Cardinals are flown to Bali and have much better survival rates than the boat fish. I do know that WC from certain wholesalers do better than WC from others, although I'm not completely sure why. Perhaps some will "escape" near Bali and rapily get established like they did in Lembeh Strait. The mouthbrooding techique surely means high survival rates if there are urchins or sea anemones or fire corals or mangrove roots around.
 
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Sure, but non local species taking over local areas is generally a bad thing.
 
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Still a bad thing for native animals. There is speculation that Lembah wasn't a mistake.
 
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Thales":1bx8keqp said:
Still a bad thing for native animals. There is speculation that Lembah wasn't a mistake.

I have always been told it was intentional as well which IMO is not a big stretch given what others have done in the past in the name of commercial MO>
 

dizzy

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Thales":51rg3q5m said:
Still a bad thing for native animals. There is speculation that Lembah wasn't a mistake.

For the sake of learning, how about backing this up with some information on which animals have been negatively effected by the Bangaii Cardinal expansion. It isn't a really long distance from Bangaii Islands to Lembah Strait, so it isn't outside the realm of possibility that Mother Nature found a way for this to happen. You guys are acting like you have inside information on an intentional release, but it reads more like the type of rumors Gresham hates so badly. So if you can provide proof it was intentional please do so.
 

dizzy

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dizzy":1ocvco2o said:
Thales":1ocvco2o said:
Still a bad thing for native animals. There is speculation that Lembah wasn't a mistake.

For the sake of learning, how about backing this up with some information on which animals have been negatively effected by the Bangaii Cardinal expansion. It isn't a really long distance from Bangaii Islands to Lembah Strait, so it isn't outside the realm of possibility that Mother Nature found a way for this to happen. You guys are acting like you have inside information on an intentional release, but it reads more like the type of rumors Gresham hates so badly. So if you can provide proof it was intentional please do so.
PS
If nothing else, please provide an explanation of why it would be an economic benefit to release Bangaii Cardinals in the Lembah Strait.
 
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dizzy":36eli6sc said:
Thales":36eli6sc said:
Still a bad thing for native animals. There is speculation that Lembah wasn't a mistake.

For the sake of learning, how about backing this up with some information on which animals have been negatively effected by the Bangaii Cardinal expansion. It isn't a really long distance from Bangaii Islands to Lembah Strait, so it isn't outside the realm of possibility that Mother Nature found a way for this to happen. You guys are acting like you have inside information on an intentional release, but it reads more like the type of rumors Gresham hates so badly. So if you can provide proof it was intentional please do so.

Have you dove the straight in the past? I ahven't but I know plenty that hace and the current is MAJOR their.

But I'm glad to see you've taken my rumor comment to heart, that's a good thing :D
 

dizzy

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Thales,
I did the research for you. http://www.divetheblue.net/pdf/ArtTakako.pdf

There are still a number of questions that I have. Why introduce Bangaii cardinals 400KM further North of Bali, if the Bali is the port of export? Peter's post claims the long shipping time from Bangaii Islands to Bali is partially responsible for high mortalities in this species. So moving the Bangaii 400KM further away seems foolish.

Also the dive site is saying Bangaii cardinals out compete other fish and invetebrates that live in sea anemones. Does this mean that there are few anemone fish in Bangaii Islands? Scott Michael says the Bangaii often share anemones with clownfish.

I guess the part that really confuses me is how can a fish that was so easy to introduce to new territory, can be so easy to wipe out in the areas it originates. Common sense would suggest that this is a fish that can rebound very quickly as long as habitat is suitable. With some proper conservation this seems like a good candidate for sustainable harvest.
 

dizzy

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banggai_cardinalfish

Ecology

In the wild, Lembeh Straits, North Sulawesi, Indonesia.The Banggai cardinalfish is the only representative of the family that is diurnal.[2] It is a demersal tropical marine fish that forms stable groups of about 9 individuals in shallow water, being most common at 1.5–2.5 m depth. The species inhabits a variety of shallow habitats, including coral reefs, seagrass beds, and open areas of sand and rubble. It is most common in calm habitats on the protected side of larger islands.[2] It is often found associated with the seagrass Enhalus acoroides and the long spined sea urchin Diadema setosum.[1] It occurs among various living benthic substrates such as sea urchins, sea anemones, and branching corals; young fish are most commonly associated with sea anemone, while juveniles and adults occur most frequently among long-spined sea urchins and branching corals, as well as sea stars, hydrozoans, and mangrove prop roots.[2] Individuals of 2 to 60 hover directly above the urchins, with the younger ones about 2–3 cm SL staying closer to the urchins. The fish retreat among the spines when threatened.[1] Individual fish exhibit well-defined homing behaviour and return to the original location of their group when disturbed.[2] Banggai cardinalfish often coexist with various anemonefish and anemone shrimp when sheltering in anemones and corals; when found among sea urchin spines, it associates with several other genera of cardinalfish. Following removal of the fish by aquarium collectors, the abundance of associated invertebrates has been shown to decline.[2]



Wikipedia is not always right, but the above was referenced to credible sources. So if removing these fish causes associated invertebrates to decline, what would introducing these fish do?
 
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dizzy":1f330rnm said:

Not my research, your research. I am not defending a thesis, I am having a discussion on an internet message board. :D

There are still a number of questions that I have. Why introduce Bangaii cardinals 400KM further North of Bali, if the Bali is the port of export? Peter's post claims the long shipping time from Bangaii Islands to Bali is partially responsible for high mortalities in this species. So moving the Bangaii 400KM further away seems foolish.

I didn't say that there was speculation they were introduced for export, that was someone else. I said there was speculation they were introduced on purpose. If they were introduced for the trade, I agree, it makes little sense, but there are many many decisions made in the export world that don't make much sense.
I know some researchers that were in Lembah when they started showing up. They don't believe it was a natural occurrence. They wanted to catch them but didn't have time. When they came back, there were too many to deal with and their project didn't cover catching cardinals.

Also the dive site is saying Bangaii cardinals out compete other fish and invetebrates that live in sea anemones. Does this mean that there are few anemone fish in Bangaii Islands? Scott Michael says the Bangaii often share anemones with clownfish.

Beats me.

I guess the part that really confuses me is how can a fish that was so easy to introduce to new territory, can be so easy to wipe out in the areas it originates.

Because they are easy to catch, and they generally don't move to far away from where they were born.

Common sense would suggest that this is a fish that can rebound very quickly as long as habitat is suitable.

And as long as there are sufficient number - you betcha.

[quote[ With some proper conservation this seems like a good candidate for sustainable harvest.[/quote]

Sure - though 'proper conservation' often seems like an easy no brainer, somehow, it often seems very difficult to achieve in reality for various reasons.
 
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dizzy":qjt8ls81 said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banggai_cardinalfish

Ecology

In the wild, Lembeh Straits, North Sulawesi, Indonesia.The Banggai cardinalfish is the only representative of the family that is diurnal.[2] It is a demersal tropical marine fish that forms stable groups of about 9 individuals in shallow water, being most common at 1.5–2.5 m depth. The species inhabits a variety of shallow habitats, including coral reefs, seagrass beds, and open areas of sand and rubble. It is most common in calm habitats on the protected side of larger islands.[2] It is often found associated with the seagrass Enhalus acoroides and the long spined sea urchin Diadema setosum.[1] It occurs among various living benthic substrates such as sea urchins, sea anemones, and branching corals; young fish are most commonly associated with sea anemone, while juveniles and adults occur most frequently among long-spined sea urchins and branching corals, as well as sea stars, hydrozoans, and mangrove prop roots.[2] Individuals of 2 to 60 hover directly above the urchins, with the younger ones about 2–3 cm SL staying closer to the urchins. The fish retreat among the spines when threatened.[1] Individual fish exhibit well-defined homing behaviour and return to the original location of their group when disturbed.[2] Banggai cardinalfish often coexist with various anemonefish and anemone shrimp when sheltering in anemones and corals; when found among sea urchin spines, it associates with several other genera of cardinalfish. Following removal of the fish by aquarium collectors, the abundance of associated invertebrates has been shown to decline.[2]



Wikipedia is not always right, but the above was referenced to credible sources. So if removing these fish causes associated invertebrates to decline, what would introducing these fish do?

Beats me, you'd have to go and look or talk to people who are there. Generally, introduction of non native species is not so good for the native species, but I am not sure if bangaiis have been researched in Lembah. I'll be there in a few months and I'll see what people there think if I can.
 
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Rich, that's a commonly accepted paradigm, it's almost dogmatic. However, do you have actual numbers to back it up? I recollect reading, in a SciAm or Nature mag I think, that the concept of all non-natives being a "bad" thing for natives is not always the case, nor do the numbers actually add up. I wish I hadn't thrown the magazine out.

JeremyR":2395alpb said:
Even if it's not endangered, what's the point in collecting, handling, shipping, if you are going to lose most of them? It doesn't do the hobby any good, and the fish would not have been eaten otherwise.. it's not a food fish. So, the resource is wasted. Last I checked, being wasteful was a bad thing.

Common sense is something nobody seems to have anymore.

I ask that you try to shift your perspective here. Once the animal is removed from the habitat, it really doesn't matter what's happened to it, whether it's been eaten, being kept in someone's tank, or has died in a bag. I mean, think about it, once it's gone, does it truly matter what has happened to it?

And, just to be clear, are you saying that I haven't got any common sense? :?
 

dizzy

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There must be some reason they were moving the Bangaii north instead of south toward Bali. Perhaps they export out of northern Sulawesi. I was reading that they do a lot of container shipping out of northern Sulawesi and this was having a negative impact of the visibility in Lembeh.

As far as introductions go, this probably does not rate as one of the worst, since many of the fish in Lembeh are probably also found in the Bangaii Islands. Given the adapatability of the Bangaii Cardinals to live in many types of anemones, urchins, fire corals, mangrove roots, et al, one really has to wonder if these fish might be easily introduced to the Florida Keys area. The potential to cause harm would likely be much greater there. Perhaps they should be banned in Florida.
 
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seamaiden":r6rnm1qc said:
Rich, that's a commonly accepted paradigm, it's almost dogmatic. However, do you have actual numbers to back it up? I recollect reading, in a SciAm or Nature mag I think, that the concept of all non-natives being a "bad" thing for natives is not always the case, nor do the numbers actually add up. I wish I hadn't thrown the magazine out.

I said 'generally'. Off hand, I can think of a lot of introduced species that have had a negative effect on native animals, but I can't think of an introduced species that hasn't had a negative effect - though there may be some.
 
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Thales":2uey2jmy said:
seamaiden":2uey2jmy said:
Rich, that's a commonly accepted paradigm, it's almost dogmatic. However, do you have actual numbers to back it up? I recollect reading, in a SciAm or Nature mag I think, that the concept of all non-natives being a "bad" thing for natives is not always the case, nor do the numbers actually add up. I wish I hadn't thrown the magazine out.

I said 'generally'. Off hand, I can think of a lot of introduced species that have had a negative effect on native animals, but I can't think of an introduced species that hasn't had a negative effect - though there may be some.
Same here, I can probably tick off a few non-natives that are harmful. But, the thing is, the non-harmful non-natives don't get the same press, do they? I really wish I hadn't thrown out that magazine. Either way, if you've never been to Bali before and you're going to Tulamben, find Wayan Boca and his wife, Ni-Wayan (Wayan means 'first born' and Ni is the feminine signifier), they're good people. Wayan works at a German run resort, and he's top notch good guy. (The resort almost fronts the wreck of the Liberty.) :)
 

dizzy

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http://intranet.iucn.org/webfiles/doc/S ... rop_19.pdf

Inclusion of the Banggai Cardinalfish Pterapogon kauderni in Appendix II.
Proponent: The United States of America.
Summary: The Banggai Cardinalfish Pterapogon kauderni is a small coral reef fish endemic to a restricted
region of Indonesia. It has been harvested substantially for the international ornamental aquarium trade
since 1995 and possibly in smaller numbers before then. Its range is restricted to 27 Indonesian islands in
the Banggai Archipelago and to Luwuk harbour in central Sulawesi. The total extent of natural occurrence
of the species is around 5 500 km2, which is extended slightly by artificial introductions to nearby areas.
The total extent of suitable habitat is estimated to be only 34 km2. The Banggai Cardinalfish is a sedentary
fish living in small stable groups that remain closely associated with various living benthic substrates
including sea urchins, sea anemones, branching corals and mangrove roots. Despite its small size, short
life span and early age at first maturity, the Banggai Cardinalfish nonetheless has a relatively low fecundity
due to limited brood size and prolonged male mouth brooding. It is also vulnerable to overexploitation due
to its limited dispersal abilities (it has no pelagic larval stage) and consequently has the highest degree of
population subdivision ever documented for a marine fish: populations occurring on reefs within the same
island are genetically differentiated from each other.
There are an estimated 2.4 million individual Banggai Cardinalfish in the wild based on data from 2004.
Since the early 1990s, exports of this species appear to have increased. Recent figures indicate an
annual export of some 400 000 to 480 000. Data for the period 2001–2004 suggested annual exports of
around 700 000–900 000 fish, which were estimated by extrapolating shorter-term export figures.
However, these figures may be overestimates if there is substantial inter-annual variation in exports (there
are currently no data to determine this). Export figures may substantially underestimate the number of
fishes collected if, as is suggested by various sources, there is a high level of post-capture mortality.
There is some anecdotal information suggesting that the frequency of collection by traders and the
number of traders visiting individual villages in the region have been recently declining, but whether this
reflects dwindling abundance of Banggai Cardinalfish or other factors remains unclear. Baseline
population information is not available to indicate whether the status of the species as a whole has
changed since the main export trade began in 1995. Falling prices per fish suggest that there remain
enough accessible stocks to satisfy current demand. However, several spatial and temporal studies have
demonstrated the severe localised impact of harvesting Banggai Cardinalfish for the aquarium trade;
observations indicate harvesting reduces the size of sub-populations and reduces the number of fish per
group, a factor that is likely to lead to further declines and inhibit population recovery. All observed
declines of individual sub-populations are recent and have been as high as 100% over three years. The
extremely limited capacity for this species to recolonise areas that have been depleted by harvesting for
the trade has also been demonstrated.
Protection of sub-populations from fishing pressure has been
associated in some cases with increased population densities. There has been substantial development of
local conservation strategies for the Banggai Cardinalfish in recent years with considerable involvement of
local stakeholders. Efforts are being focussed on the development of four marine protected areas (which
still await implementation), increasing capacity for “in-situ” grow-out of juvenile fish and improving
husbandry techniques to minimise post-capture mortality. There is also some evidence that a sustainable
system of rotational harvest could be effective in preventing over-harvesting of Banggai Cardinalfish.
Further investigations are required to determine whether “in-situ” breeding and rotational harvesting can
be considered as sustainable strategies.
This species is proposed for inclusion in Appendix II under Resolution Conf. 9.24 (Rev. CoP13) Annex 2a
criterion B because of marked recent declines in populations driven by harvesting for the international
aquarium trade and the inherent vulnerability of this species to overexploitation.
Analysis: The Banggai Cardinalfish is a localised species that is harvested intensively for the international
aquarium trade. While the exact levels of recent exports are not known and the most recent population
estimates are from 2004, there is little doubt that a significant proportion of the total population of this
species is exported from Indonesia each year. Higher levels of fishing pressure are associated with both
marked recent declines in localised population size and a reduction in individual group size. The limited
geographic range, small-scale isolation of sub-populations, low fecundity, and extremely limited dispersal
mean this species is inherently vulnerable to overexploitation. It thus seems likely that the species meets
the criteria for inclusion in Appendix II as set out in Annex 2a of Resolution Conf. 9.24 (Rev. CoP13).
 

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