Split from 'Speaking of looking for people'

[M_Phobos]

Hmmm...

I don't honestly understand the concern over a few VERY high-end fish going directly from collector to consumer in this industry. (And for some perspective on who this is coming from, I work managing the largest MO retailer in Oregon outside of Portland). To be honest, we rarely move fish in the $100-200 range - let alone fish in the $2000 range. I would have an issue if the same collector started selling bread and butter direct to consumer (as I think everyone would) but to be honest I would almost prefer the direct-to-consumer model for such high-end items. (If I have a customer that wants let's say, a purple Rhinopias sp. and I find one via a wholesaler I have to assume a huge risk for the customer in even getting the animal to my store. Quite often these animals aren't "guaranteed" by the wholesaler and if something happens in shipping it's my pocketbook it affects.).

I also find it quite ironic that Kevin is so up in arms that the cistomers he provides "service" to are being "denied" these fish. Really? Well now you know how we b&m stores feel when etailers transship to cut costs and then sell to the customers that we provide "service" to. It's okay to cut out one middleman to save money but heaven forbid we do more than that for one or two customers on, again, some fish that the vast majority of retailers don't want and aren't going to buy anyway?

This is all much ado about nothing in my book - but it is funny to see the etailer response. How do the shoes feel now that they're on the other foot?

Cheers,
Austin

 

[aquaticvet1]

I do not blame Steve for selling direct, I would too in his shoes, especially in this economy. We have not seen anything yet and any collector or wholesaler can sell direct, they may cut me and you out.

What I would not do is say one thing and do another, but then, that is just me. I do not like sleezy business.

 

[KKohen]

Steve,
It’s the principle of the matter, not the quantity or volume. Once again, we all make choices in life, and its clear that you have made yours. I do have some major problems with people preaching from their pulpit about standing behind the retailer when you in fact just undercut all of them in the Colorado area.

I am sincerely happy for the end user, and happy that some of these fish are now safely in the hands of people who can properly care for the animals. In my personal opinion, based on the years of experience in this industry caring for marine fish, the proper husbandry for these fish is surely not keeping 10-12 Adult fish that are 5" or more in 20 Gallon high aquariums in a local retail store that is also littered with large fish in cups barely big enough for the fish to turn around. This is not what I would term ideal husbandry practices, but rather being somewhat irresponsible with these incredible fish. I fully understand these fish are social in their native habitat, but not in the confines of a 20 gallon aquarium that is 24" long x 12" deep.

As far as us being bitter, how "the last importer (edited out in respect to this company) and you choose to conduct your business doesn’t involve me at all. Back in June I had made the decision to not handle any of these fish again as the demand is just not there at the current price structure as we were still sitting on one of the three Clarions, a desirable juvenile fish that we received back in February. I have zero interest to purchase any of these fish from any supplier now or in the future unless the price structure changes drastically.


Southwest Saltwater,
I am in no way complaining, trying to take over a collection area, or capitalize on these fish whatsoever. The entire points of my post were to illuminate that we all have choices in life. When people take a stance on something and adamantly defend their stance over the years, then turn around and do the opposite, this speaks volumes about people’s true intentions.

When trying to manipulate the “political frontâ€

 

[M_Phobos]

I do not blame Steve for selling direct, I would too in his shoes, especially in this economy. We have not seen anything yet and any collector or wholesaler with a brain should be selling direct, they should cut me and you out.

What I would not do is say one thing and do another, but then, that is just me. I do not like sleezy business.

Race, let's be honest here - they should cut you out, not me. As Jeremy said, there will always be the affluent in any given market who make B&M retailers/maintenance companies a necessity AND a collector would want B&M stores around to expand markets for them. If collectors started selling direct more frequently it would be via the internet thus making etailers redundant. In short, they,d put you out of a job before me.

Now I have no problem if you'd at least own up to that much and be honest instead of calling the business practice "sleazy" - my god that's what capitalism is! And what's worse, you're starting to sound like all the poorly modeled B&M retailers did when etailers hit the scene over a decade ago.

Cheers,
Austin

 

[aquaticvet1]

Wholesalers and collectors selling direct is nothing new, it has gone on for years. What is wrong here is saying one thing in an effort to gain market share---- yet doing another.

It will be this type of practice that will ensure Kalk will not rest alone.

 

[JeremyR]

I didn't say anything about wealthy customers, that was sw.

I did say that if it only happened one time and it was really a mistake, then this is a bunch of vindictive hot air. If they have proof that this is a regular occurance then by all means roast him. Until then, get over it.

 

[M_Phobos]

And if you do that often enough it catches up to you. But making a big to-do over what appears to be a special circumstance (and I'd assume if you had evidence that it was a part of a larger pattern we would have heard it by now) is silly. It comes off a little petty - like me judging you based on the reaction of many of my customer's negative experiences with etailers.

Cheers,
Austin

Edit: Sorry Jeremy, it was SW that said that! My bad. Hard to keep up sometimes while on the Blackberry instead of the pc.

 

[aquaticvet1]

Let's talk again in about six months.

Until then, have a Happy Holiday Season and I wish you all luck in 2009.

Race

 

[nemo24]

Learn something every day.

 

[clarionreef]

Hey,
I don't know if the facts matter much but I am a wholesaler who is vertically integrated into a chain of custody starting at the bottom with the collector...of which I am also one.
I have a business liscense, a USFWS wildlife permit and a new wharehouse.

Steve

 

[aquaticvet1]

Like I said, Wholesalers have been selling direct for years, actually since before I entered the game.

I bought internet livestock businesses from two of them, ---- that is how I got started. Yes, the internet game started at the Wholesale level. The greenies here should learn some history.

Welcome Steve and best wishes in the Wholesaler, direct to the consumer world. You are not the only one doing it, there is room for everyone.

 

[swsaltwater]

I am seeing more and more collector and importer direct to LFS as well, this will keep us on a level playing field even if they go direct to consumer. Most people are willing to pay a markup to see the item prior to purchase.

 

[aquaticvet1]

I agree SW.

I believe the next 24 months will be the epic time in this industry. Margins may shrink and the hobbyist will be buying livestock at a lower cost. The only salvation will be to alter the chain of custody, which is most likely what Steve is doing. Just good business but he should be honest in his approach, just as I am. Any way you look at it, he is now a collector/wholesaler selling direct to the consumer. I have no problem with the concept, just the honesty.

 

[clarionreef]

The fish in the mail guy said;

Welcome Steve and best wishes in the Wholesaler, direct to the consumer world. You are not the only one doing it, there is room for everyone.

No, as clearly explained here I am not one of you. If I were actually oriented to sell direct to the consumer I could do it a lot better then what you imagine.
I would blow em out the door and let no one else make money on them but me.
I'd wharehose firefish for 5 bucks to the hobbyist, and ruin Helfriches for good.
I would sell to group buys in hobby clubs and market aggressively at all conferences.
I'd buy internet banners and push, push, push product at half price.
I'd drop the price of bluespot jawfish and passers, of red headed gobies and turbo snails.
I'd deal all the good fish direct to hobbyists and dump all the left overs to dealers...and ....
and....worship the self and the gospel of economic determinism....

[Wow, no wonder only Hobbits can carry the ring...its so tempting isn't it?]

I'd put up a real "Collectors corner" and a genuine Divers Den featuring real divers and real sea going people, not just desk bound fiction and computer concocted fantasy.

Any way you look at it, he is now a collector/wholesaler selling direct to the consumer. I have no problem with the concept, just the honesty.

As clearly explained here, there is no attempt to delude except by you.
Your dishonest ignorance of all innocent explaination suggests an attempt to link us and we are not the same.
People who sell out understandably have problems with those who don't. They need to think that their own sell out is justified and normal and that all would do it.
Living reminders that not all are so weak is embarrassing I suppose. Hence the need to link us up together as the same.

If I wanted to sell to the public, I'd open up retail and be a real-retailer.
Steve

 

[KKohen]

Steve,
Although this makes for some good reading, to properly achieve the scenario of your “I could do a lot better then what you imagineâ€

 

[JeremyR]

Kevin,

I've seen fish in cups at one time or another at pretty much every wholesaler I"ve ever visited. While it's not something I enjoy seeing, I'm quite sure you buy from people who at some stage in the chain of custody have fish in cups.

 

[KKohen]

Jeremy,
Keeping small fish in cups is someting that must be done for short periods of time to ensure their safety in most modern holding systems that house large volumes of fish, as this is nothing new. Trying to maintain large fish that need to swim in cups barely big enough for the fish to turn around in for extended periods of time in my personal opinion is being irresponsible. Maintaining 10 to 12-5"+ Holacanthus spp. Angelfish in 20 gallon high aquariums for any length of time is also something that I personally feel is being irresponsible, but then again I actually care about the well being of the fish that are in my personal care.

With all of your knowledge about fishes’ behavior along with your understanding of their requirements, combined with your vast experience handling fish over the years, do you think this form of holding is appropriate for any Holacanthus spp. Angelfish regardless of their price or value?

Regards,
Kevin

 

[JeremyR]

As I said, I don't like to see it. I did give up on wholesalers in general doing things the way I would want some time ago. There are a whole host of issues that are wrong in this trade with people you & I do business with every day. I still question your motives for this whole exchange.. it's pretty obvious that it's mostly sour grapes. You for the most part write civil posts, but your boss has a tendency to use much more venom, and then later delete what he wrote. Between that and the "I'll never make a dollar off livestock" you guys have zero credibility with me.

 

[Caterham]

Its just the reality of the situation for many importers and wholesalers, the cupping of fish. My experience has been that it leads to a better fish for the retailer.

I house cupped fish in 65 gallon tanks that are part of my shipping system. The fish cannot fight with each other and eat well while in the cups. The cups are slotted to allow plenty of flow through them as well, and my system circulates slightly under one million gallons per day.

I cannot comment on the housing of the Clarions as I have no knowledge whatsoever of the situation. I am just voicing my opinion that cupping fish for short periods of time, say 72 hours or less, actually helps to produce a healthy fish for shipping to the retailer. Just my two cents.

 

[clarionreef]

With all of your knowledge about fishes’ behavior along with your understanding of their requirements, combined with your vast experience handling fish over the years, do you think this form of holding is appropriate for any Holacanthus spp. Angelfish regardless of their price or value?

Taking advice from amatuers can be helpful, but not in this case. Importing large volumes of fish is not the same as handling small amounts of fish and although all fishes need to get to ideal care as soon as possible, the few days involved in initial processing can be more crowded.
Temporary holding is what we have done and now half the fish are sold and gone.
Cups and cubes keep the juveniles from fighting and thats a good thing. 150 small fishes were in cubes...but the fewer in cups that were waiting for cubes to free up were on standby for a bit.
The photos of the first day show the holding of a lot more fish then there are now....but none of that information is available to you as you're reacting to last week.
Steve