Hawaiian Legislation

[naesco]

I did, you said very little. BTW when you where off is such a rush, you failled to answer some imprtant questions. You posted "I'm off to Cuba, no time to post". You had enough time to post that but you couldn't answer my questions.

What was the question or question? Ask them in the Cuba post as this thread raises very important matters of vital concern to both industry and hobbyists.
Thanks
Wayne Ryan

 

[rgbmatt]

Another thing that I did not yet point out is that, in regards to the unnamed species is the issue of enforcement. ... I am always hesitant to agree with further legislation when enforcement itself is a key issue, all other problems notwithstanding.

Enforcement (or lack thereof) is a key issue in Hawaii, and yet another problem with this bill. While I do think that our conservation officers are quite capable and able to identify illegal specimens, the department is severely underfunded and understaffed. There is simply not enough manpower to enforce the existing fishing laws, never mind new ones.

This sort of thing happens every year - new regulations are proposed (for all types of fisheries), but are essentially meaningless because the legislations fail to provide adequate resources for enforcement. It is a frustrating issue for many fishermen, who are quick to recognize the problem and cry foul every time.

Its time for the fish business in Hawaii to wake up and follow the Florida model of organizing the business. Setting regulations with input from both sides.

You are absolutely right. However, this has been happening now for over a decade - the aforementioned West Hawaii management program is the result and it appears to be quite successful. This bill has had no input from anybody in this process and only serves to undermine years of progress.

 

[Anonymous]

Well from what i understand in talking to snorkel Bob is that they might be open to talks with the collectors. I would suggest that people stop contacting Sen Clayton Hee. Nothing further will be gained by this tactic and it is now counterproductive. Remember this is a fight between a small industry ( collectors) and a very large one( tourism). In Hawaii a lot more people make there living of tourists than collecting fish. Its time for the fish business in Hawaii to wake up and follow the Florida model of organizing the business. Setting regulations with input from both sides.

Please any more calls from outsiders ( yes we are outsiders, we don't live pay taxes or vote there)
is not going to be helpful. Please don't harass the people involved in this by contacting them. Trust me you wont change anyone's mind.

I don't think I could disagree with that assessment any more vehemently. You're essentially telling us to disavow ourselves of the American processes available to all U.S. citizens and residents simply because we don't all reside in that state.

 

[Anonymous]

It don't look good for tourists either :roll:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... coral.html

 

[Anonymous]

Whoa..! :shock:

Actually, we shouldn't really be surprised, should we? :|

 

[Anonymous]

I came back from Maui at the beginning of this year, and one of the locals at one beach I absolutely loved to snorkel had all her snorkeling information, and a huge gallon sized jug of "reef-safe" sunscreen. Hell I assumed sun-screen would if anything float..

As to the tourism vs ornamental. I saw what tourism was over there, tourism was a bunch of boats and people going around feeding fish so you'd get a swarm of them and be able to say "look I have 100's of fish swimming right near me... (instead of "only" 20 or so). Some of the larger companies claim they don't sell fish food, but there are so many other places that do that it's really a non-issue, Snorkel Bob, Boss Frog (two of the bigger ones I'm guessing) only take a couple boat trips to Molekini. When I hopped over to Kauai it was even worse, granted the beaches I went to were very undesirable (and the surf was pretty rough so I didn't attempt too many places) but what I did see was again people walking on the rocks because they don't have flippers, luckily for them they didn't get their feet all sliced up, but that is probably due to the fact that there weren't many corals nor skeletons. Some guy decided he wanted to touch a sea turtle, and he did, I almost got a picture of him doing it too, but I did remind him when he surfaced that you can't do that, which he didn't seem to care about until I mentioned $10,000 fine.

So yeah Tourism vs Ornamental hobby... no comparison about what brings in more money, but as for destructive practices? I don't have an true proof either way, but from what I saw, I would say Tourism destroys more than the ornamental industry.

 

[rgbmatt]

There have actually been studies in Hawaii to assess the damage caused by snorkelers, and the results don't look very good.

While I certainly don't want to ban snorkelling, the reality is that threats to coral reefs come from a variety of sources, and fishermen are only a small part of the picture. I do not know whether Snorkel Bob truly believes that aquarium fishermen are responsible for all of Hawaii's problems, or if he is using us to deflect attention from the harm caused by his own enterprise. It certainly looks like the latter.

 

[Dr. Bill]

Here's latest on yellow tang collections from West Hawaii which provides 90% of all yellows from the state. This area has 9 Fish Replenishment Areas (FRAs) comprising 35% of coast where aquarium collecting is prohibited. No need to dismantle the aquarium fishery - just manage it properly with MPAs, limited entry and kapu on some species of concern. West Hawaii is presently working on the latter two components. Let's apply the lesson here state-wide instead of scattergun, haphazard and scientifically unsupported legislation.

West Hawai’i Regional Fisheries Management Area - YellowTangs
Before FRAs AfterFRAs
(FY 1999-2000) (FY 2006-2007) % Change
Monitoring Data Density Density
No. in West HI 12.1/100m2 16.3/100m2 +35%
No. in FRAs 13.9/100m2 27.1/100m2 +95%
No. in Open Areas 10.9/100m2 10.4/100m2 -5%

Fishery Data
Total No. YTs Collected 194,394 352,425 +81%
Value of Collected YTs $383,734 $1,011,146 +164%
Value of each YT $1.97 $2.87 +46%

 

[naesco]

Here's latest on yellow tang collections from West Hawaii which provides 90% of all yellows from the state. This area has 9 Fish Replenishment Areas (FRAs) comprising 35% of coast where aquarium collecting is prohibited. No need to dismantle the aquarium fishery - just manage it properly with MPAs, limited entry and kapu on some species of concern. West Hawaii is presently working on the latter two components. Let's apply the lesson here state-wide instead of scattergun, haphazard and scientifically unsupported legislation.

West Hawai’i Regional Fisheries Management Area - YellowTangs
Before FRAs AfterFRAs
(FY 1999-2000) (FY 2006-2007) % Change
Monitoring Data Density Density
No. in West HI 12.1/100m2 16.3/100m2 +35%
No. in FRAs 13.9/100m2 27.1/100m2 +95%
No. in Open Areas 10.9/100m2 10.4/100m2 -5%

Fishery Data
Total No. YTs Collected 194,394 352,425 +81%
Value of Collected YTs $383,734 $1,011,146 +164%
Value of each YT $1.97 $2.87 +46%

Dr., where are the thin small yellow tangs coming from?
Thanks
Wayne Ryan

 

[Anonymous]

Easy answer, from the LFS/dealer, not the ocean :lol:

Wayne they only get skinny in the COC, they aren't skinny in the ocean They need to eat quite often at a small size and typically they spend several days in transit and a few on top of the cleaning out. But I shouldn't have to tell this to a self appointed "tang police" and some one who's seen this posted numerous times on this forum.

 

[naesco]

Easy answer, from the LFS/dealer, not the ocean :lol:

Wayne they only get skinny in the COC, they aren't skinny in the ocean They need to eat quite often at a small size and typically they spend several days in transit and a few on top of the cleaning out. But I shouldn't have to tell this to a self appointed "tang police" and some one who's seen this posted numerous times on this forum.

Thank you. I understand they are healthy from the ocean. I was really asking whether the deterioration occurs in holding facilities in Hawaii or the mainland.

If they are shipped from Hawaii in this condition the Hawaiian authorities have jurisdiction over the Hawaiian facilities.

Are you saying that because of their small size, the deterioration will occur anyway, than I guess we both agree that these small tangs should be left in the ocean until they mature because thr DOA must be very very high.
Wayne Ryan

 

[rgbmatt]

Yellow tangs are in such high demand that they usually spend very little time in Hawaiian holding tanks. Also, the tiny ones are small enough that they don't require much of a "cleaning out" period and can be shipped practically the next day. I imagine the bulk of the malnourishment happens at mainland wholesalers.

However, that's not really a good excuse - tiny yellows probably shouldn't be harvested. I try to avoid catching extremely small yellows, unless I know they will be sold quickly to somebody who is able to take care of them. As I recall, the West Hawaii management has been looking into placing size limits on yellows that would protect the very small and the very large fish that are, respectively, unlikely to survive the holding process and providing the greatest reproductive potential. Perhaps Dr. Bill can clarify.

This isn't just a problem with yellow tangs, though - it affect many species of fish from all over the world. LFS owners should take note and be very selective about the size of the fish they're ordering.

 

[naesco]

Yellow tangs are in such high demand that they usually spend very little time in Hawaiian holding tanks. Also, the tiny ones are small enough that they don't require much of a "cleaning out" period and can be shipped practically the next day. I imagine the bulk of the malnourishment happens at mainland wholesalers.

However, that's not really a good excuse - tiny yellows probably shouldn't be harvested. I try to avoid catching extremely small yellows, unless I know they will be sold quickly to somebody who is able to take care of them. As I recall, the West Hawaii management has been looking into placing size limits on yellows that would protect the very small and the very large fish that are, respectively, unlikely to survive the holding process and providing the greatest reproductive potential. Perhaps Dr. Bill can clarify.

This isn't just a problem with yellow tangs, though - it affect many species of fish from all over the world. LFS owners should take note and be very selective about the size of the fish they're ordering.

So perhaps it is the best interest of the reefs, industry and hobbyists that there is a size limit rather than a bag limit.

You are obviously a first class collector, rgbmatt. I would hope that industry takes a lead a refuse to deal with these tiny tangs. I suspect that most Hawaiian collects have the reef and the suitability at heart.
My major concern is in Indonesia and the Philippines where the use of cyanide is rampant yet, exporters/importers continue to deal in cyanide fish where they know or ought to have known that they are likely cyanide caught


What do you say Dr. Bill?

 

[RichardS]

Please don't harass the people involved in this by contacting them. Trust me you wont change anyone's mind.

It would seem that alot of hobbyist's don't want to change anyone's mind.

http://www.dfwmas.org/NewsLetter/dfwmas ... 008_01.pdf

 

[cindre2000]

I have little experience in the wholesale side of the hobby; however, I am happy to say that all the yellow tangs I have ordered for the store I work at have been healthy and eating. That is better than a good number of other species of tangs I have ordered.

I am more concerned about 'Dori' due to the constant availability of Tiny individuals. I have never had much luck with the small specimens of this fish and and am disturbed by hobbyists' insistence to have a juvenile of this species in every tank; 30g and up.

 

[naesco]

I have little experience in the wholesale side of the hobby; however, I am happy to say that all the yellow tangs I have ordered for the store I work at have been healthy and eating. That is better than a good number of other species of tangs I have ordered.

I am more concerned about 'Dori' due to the constant availability of Tiny individuals. I have never had much luck with the small specimens of this fish and and am disturbed by hobbyists' insistence to have a juvenile of this species in every tank; 30g and up.

I am very concerned that LFS are selling tangs to hobbyists who do not have suitable tanks to keep them.
Tangs are swimmers and require the large (2-3 meter long) tanks that give them the room they need to thrive. They grow to the size of pie plates.

Your comments and that of Seamaiden that the emaciation responsibility lies with COC leads me to believe that regulations on both shipping and handling all marine fish need to be put in place to lessen the DOA and provide a healthy accommodation for the fish.

Thanks
Wayne Ryan

 

[naesco]

I have little experience in the wholesale side of the hobby; however, I am happy to say that all the yellow tangs I have ordered for the store I work at have been healthy and eating. That is better than a good number of other species of tangs I have ordered.

I am more concerned about 'Dori' due to the constant availability of Tiny individuals. I have never had much luck with the small specimens of this fish and and am disturbed by hobbyists' insistence to have a juvenile of this species in every tank; 30g and up.

I am very concerned that LFS are selling tangs to hobbyists who do not have suitable tanks to keep them. There ought to be a law.

Tangs are swimmers and require the large (2-3 meter long) tanks that give them the room they need to thrive. They grow to the size of pie plates.

Thanks
Wayne Ryan

 

[clarionreef]

So yeah Tourism vs Ornamental hobby... no comparison about what brings in more money, but as for destructive practices? I don't have an true proof either way, but from what I saw, I would say Tourism destroys more than the ornamental industry.

This may be very true!

Now we have evidence to suggest that the suntan oil and urine that tourist leave on the reefs has a deliterious effect ....and when repeated times thousands and thousands of times thruout the year?
If we ban all things destructive, it may then be prudent to ban tourism from many areas, Especially in the areas these tourist people piss on the most.
Steve

 

[clarionreef]

If you hope for problems and look hard enough for issues, its easy to find em.
Being an eco-paparazzi doesn't take much talent but an overactive imagination can help a lot.

1. First look for issues to start caring about on the internet...[not real life.]
2. Then put together a cut and paste collage of concern on stuff you have read...
3. Then suggest a bogus remedy. The skills required to remedy the problem is 100% diffrent then google skills required to make the book report..
4. Then market your new-found passion to funders.

I can do this too!
I think and want to become a new eco-warrior and crusdsade against Snorkle Bobs tourists pissing on the coral reefs .
Hey Bob!
Welcome to RDO!
Scuba Steve
and Bob..I am a better diver then you too.

 

[sdcfish]

Dr. Bill,

Welcome to the forum! It's nice to see you on here helping us make some sense of all this.

As I mentioned previously, I was one of the exporters during the closures, and I thought you did the best job possible at the time. I also think you have done a great job gathering data since the closures.

I personally would like to see a change to the areas closed, and rotate the areas. I would also like to see a full closure to any commercial activity whether it be tourism dive boats or fish collectors. This will truly give us the benefits of having the areas set aside for "replenishment".

In your opionion, is there anything we can do to help support the aquarium industry or show our support against the bill?

Thanks for your posts, and again...nice to see you here.

Eric - Sea Dwelling Creatures.