Weekly Discussion-What makes a propagated coral propagated?

[Anonymous]

Weekly Discussion - What makes a propagated coral propagated?

Happily, frags of propagated corals are showing up everywhere for sale and trade. But what exactly does it mean for a coral to be propagated? Currently, corals being touted as propagated range from a piece of wild collected colony glued to a piece live rock to a tank grown frag that can show its aquarium linage 3 generations back.
What do you think, and how much do these distinctions matter?


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[wombat1]

I think if all the polyps on the frag were "born" in an aquarium, it's captive propagated. Breaking a wild colony into several pieces doesn't qualify, IMO. When I get a frag and the seller can tell me exact lighting and current conditions that it was grown in, it helps me replicate those more closely than I could with a wild piece.

 

[npaden]

I've always thought of truly tank raised as meaning that it is a frag of a frag. I think the definition of all of the polyps have been grown in captivity is a good one.

The best corals (hardiest, hold color best, etc.) seem to be 4th or even 5th generation tank raised IME.

FWIW, Nathan

 

[Anonymous]

I have seen 'chop shopping' of wild caught corals, with the frags being sold as frags. What do you all think of that practice?

 

[npaden]

I personally think this is misleading and that is why I will typically trade with fellow hobbyists rather than buying from places like this. What makes a frag valuable is that it has proven itself to be hardy by living for years in one tank or another. IME wild collected corals are more likely to die from RTN events or other stress factors. This make the truly captive propagated frag worth more to me.

Taking a $60 wild coral and breaking it into 10 - $15 frags isn't propagating anything, it is maximizing profits.

FWIW, Nathan

 

[Minh Nguyen]

A wild SPS colony has several thousand polyps. All these polyps are suppose to be identical but not quite. Some may be different than others due to error in cell division. Some of these polyps will be more suitable to grow in captivity than other. These polyps are the one that will divide and give new growth to the colony.
I would define a tank raise frag as a frag with all the skeleton growth in captivity. A wild frag will give raise to a colony that mostly, but not quite tank raised. If one frag this colony, and just cut the part that was grown in the tank, then one would get a tank-raised frag. These frags are hardier than the wild frags or even farm-raised frags.
The above is my definition of tank raise frags.
Minh Nguyen

 

[madrefkepr]

While I would agree with what has been stated above, I may be looking at this a little differently, in terms of the reason for propagation. If you look at it in terms of conserving natural resources (coral reefs), then I think that frags from a wild colony could be termed propagated. A wild colony divided into say, 15 frags, has potentially saved 14 colonies. Isn't this the real reason for propagating corals? Of course, this would only be true in a perfect world, where all frags survived and grew into it's own colony. We can be fairly sure this isn't a perfect world, but even if only 2 of the 15 survived, isn't this better than 1 for 1 taken from the reef?

 

[fergy]

While I would agree with what has been stated above, I may be looking at this a little differently, in terms of the reason for propagation. If you look at it in terms of conserving natural resources (coral reefs), then I think that frags from a wild colony could be termed propagated. A wild colony divided into say, 15 frags, has potentially saved 14 colonies. Isn't this the real reason for propagating corals? Of course, this would only be true in a perfect world, where all frags survived and grew into it's own colony. We can be fairly sure this isn't a perfect world, but even if only 2 of the 15 survived, isn't this better than 1 for 1 taken from the reef?

As things currently exist now, MANY/MOST of the popular online coral suppliers are labelling a frag broken from a wild colony that has began to base as "Captive Raised". To me, this is totally false, and is a lie just to make a quick profit. I don't care that many heads were saved, I just want truth in advertising.

BRIAN

BRIAN

 

[Anonymous]

I agree with Fergy. The entire skeleton must have grown in captivity to be captive propogated. There is a huge difference in hardiness, and color retention IMO.

Jim

 

[madrefkepr]

As things currently exist now, MANY/MOST of the popular online coral suppliers are labelling a frag broken from a wild colony that has began to base as "Captive Raised". To me, this is totally false, and is a lie just to make a quick profit. I don't care that many heads were saved, I just want truth in advertising.

BRIAN

I totally agree! Now my question would be; Would you by a frag from a wild colony, rather than an entire colony, if it were advertised as such?

Please don't misunderstand me. My first choice would be a truly captive raised frag. I agree that they are usually healthier and hardier. That being said, in the absence of a captive rasied frag, I will buy a "wild raised" frag, rather than an entire colony. I would rather someone made 3 times the money on one head, than making the same amount on three heads.

 

[fergy]

I would buy the frag from a wild colony, but I want to know what I'm buying when I buy it. In addition, I would not pay as much for the wild frag as the true captive raised one. And therein lies the problem. These people are in the business to make money, so they will attempt to maximize profits. They have no incentive to be honest.

BRIAN

 

[mkirda]

I would buy the frag from a wild colony, but I want to know what I'm buying when I buy it. In addition, I would not pay as much for the wild frag as the true captive raised one. And therein lies the problem. These people are in the business to make money, so they will attempt to maximize profits. They have no incentive to be honest.

BRIAN

Brian and all.

Here is the scoop (I think) from a commercial propagator's POV:

A true chop-shop frags wild heads and sends them out immediately.
They do not like this, they do not want this, they want to see these operations go belly-up.

A commercial propagator will frag wild heads, mount them, hold onto them, and let them grow. Once they start to plate and show new growth, they will start to sell them. They will call this 'captive-raised'. (And I know, Brian, that you vehemently disagree with this definition...)

Some very few propagators will only sell from broodstock. Frankly, I cannot see how they make money, but these frags will be the ones most likely to survive in tanks. Most of us would agree that these are captive raised.

I think that the commercial propagators do not think that there will be a meaningful survival rate difference between 2 and 3 here... And because of this, there may not be a reason to distinguish between the two.

Anyway, not going to comment further here: This is the reality we face.

Regards.
Mike Kirda

 

[Anonymous]

I understand that 'captive-raised', meaning newly plated wild frags, is an odd term, and understand why some feel it feels misleading. I prefer 'captive latched', a term I just made up right now.

A frag differentiation system needs to be simple or no one will use or understand it. 'Wild' could refer to wild colonies of freshly fragged wild colonies. 'Captive latched' could refer to growing and plating wild frags. And 'captive raised' could refer to all growth in captivity.

I am just not sure if it is possible to get everyone on the same page here, but I do feel the need for such a system.

 

[ADS]

Any F2 generation or greater coral such as... wild frag grows to colony, fragged then frag becomes colony then fragged. Any of these frags are now captive propagated. Adam

 

[fergy]

I find it refreshing that the hobbyists who have posted to this topic seem to have the same understanding.

Now, why can't the people selling these accept it, and be truthful? Seems like they are cashing in on a misperception about their livestock, for the sake of making a living.

Adam: Are you commercially involved in propagation?

BRIAN

 

[ADS]

Yes,but not on a large scale. I've been at it for awhile but my business is new. Adam

 

[madrefkepr]

I prefer 'captive latched', a term I just made up right now.

I like it!

 

[Modo]

I whole-heartedly agree that calling a frag "Captive Raised" just because a wild frag attached itself in a holding tank is absurd! Compare this to fish in the industry. So, are we now calling a wild-caught fish "Captive Raised" because it grew 1/16" in a holding tank? I don't think so.

I'm in the Advertising Industry and can say that this could very well be misleading advertising that the FTC frowns upon. For example...

False advertising is defined as advertising that is misleading in any material respect, either explicitly or indirectly through representations made in a statement or combination of statements and any failure to reveal material facts.

...and further.

The FTC Act also prohibits deceptive acts or practices, including the false and misleading representation of material facts.

In my opinion false and misleading representation of material facts is very clear here. Almost all hobbiest above have agreed that captive raised is exactly that. A frag from a piece of coral that was grown in captivity. Not a frag from the wild that grew onto a piece of LR in someone's system.

Not that anyone is getting a FTC posse and some lawyers together, but I believe that some definate wool is being pulled over our eyes here.

Great thread and thanks for letting me vent! :wink:

 

[Anemone]

Okay, where do "farming" operations fit in this scheme? Walt Smith grows frags in the ocean - these frags are initially taken from wild colonies, but the entire colony is not removed - and some of the wild "fragstock" is used for future fraggings....

How would this differ from a frag farm doing basically the same thing, only doing it in tanks rather than in the ocean?

Kevin

 

[fergy]

These corals are called "in situ" corals. They are totally different, and should be marketed as such. The original colony isn't removed from the wild, so it is quite different from the importation of wild colonies simply to take a hammer to them. In addition, these corals have been allowed to grow for a long time, and are more mature than the pieces being marketed in-country as "captive raised", when they are merely wild pieces that are starting to base.

The "in situ" corals are usually pretty easy to recognize, especially Walt's, because of the disks they are grown on. Unfortunately, there are retailers out there trying to use similar disks to grow frags on.

Again, I've never been opposed to any of these categories. Instead, I want truth in advertising and labelling, so that hobbyists can make a distinction and decision on their own. As it is now, the suppliers are trying to prevent us from differentiating between them, for the sake of profit.

BRIAN