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lnevo

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So, I know it's only been 9 days, but here's my situation. First off, I currently have a 65 gallon tank, it has 65 pounds of pre-cured live rock already covered in coraline. I also have 10 pounds of LR rubble and a ball of cheato in the refugium section of my sump and 65 pounds of live sand.

I started testing 2 days after filling and have been recording 0ppm for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. The ammonia though seemed slightly "greener" than the 0 color on the test chart, but nowhere close to the 0.25 color at the next level up.

Anyway, I've been tempted to add a shrimp or dose some ammonia to help get the process going, but everything I had read said this was not necessary when using cured LR. Fast forward to last night and I decided to go with the feeding the imaginary fish method.

So, I wake up this morning and lo and behold, I have some diatom blooms on my sand bed and on some of my LR as well. Completely excited to see some action in my tank, I went ahead and did my tests again. This time the ammonia color was definitely at the 0ppm color and nitrites were at 2ppm. Yay, we're moving! Nitrates were still at 0ppm.

Now, being the impatient person that I am... (I'm trying to use this hobby to help improve that, obviously it's working...) I tested again tonight. Well, my nitrites were back to 0ppm again!!! However, my nitrates are also still at 0.

So what is going on here? Am I cycled... should I continue the imaginary feeding? Is the chaeto processing the nitrates? Is it time to add a CUC? I'm fine with waiting if that's the recommendation. I really don't want to do anything that will harm my livestock when it's time to add them... I just don't know what the state of my bio-filter is at this point...

Also, how is it you can move livestock into a fresh QT without going through a cycle or having a bio-filter whereas we have to do all this waiting in our DT? I know you can put a sponge from your main tank to help add some bacteria in the QT, but without all the LR, etc... does that really do much?

Thanks in advance.

Lee
 

skene

Winter. Time for Flakes..
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You are not cycled. Don't get excited. You need to add an ammonia source for bacteria to consume and allow time for colonizing of bacteria.

and DASSSSSSIT!!!!!!!!
 

lnevo

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You are not cycled. Don't get excited. You need to add an ammonia source for bacteria to consume and allow time for colonizing of bacteria.

and DASSSSSSIT!!!!!!!!

So, I should keep feeding the imaginary fish? Or drop in a shrimp to provide the ammonia? I read multiple sources that the die off from my LR would be enough for an ammonia source..

What would have caused the nitrite spike and quick drop then?

How high should I expect to see the levels climb to know when I'm actually cycled?
 

skene

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If you are testing the waters daily for ammonia, nitrates and nitrite... and you have an ammonia source... then you will see the correct rise and fall of these traces.
Without providing this source your tank will not show such readings through testing.

Want a quick way to see bacteria colonize. Put a shrimp into the tank. When you see the fluffy fungus on the shrimp, that means bacteria has started to colonize on the shrimp and is consuming an ammonia source providing waste and allowing for bacteria to start.
Die off from any "live rock" can start a small cycle... but still hardly enough to sustain larger forms of life.
If you have read how a cycle works, you would not need to ask these questions... and just be aware that you have started something fun.
 

lnevo

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If you are testing the waters daily for ammonia, nitrates and nitrite... and you have an ammonia source... then you will see the correct rise and fall of these traces.
Without providing this source your tank will not show such readings through testing.

Want a quick way to see bacteria colonize. Put a shrimp into the tank. When you see the fluffy fungus on the shrimp, that means bacteria has started to colonize on the shrimp and is consuming an ammonia source providing waste and allowing for bacteria to start.
Die off from any "live rock" can start a small cycle... but still hardly enough to sustain larger forms of life.
If you have read how a cycle works, you would not need to ask these questions... and just be aware that you have started something fun.

As I said, multiple sources suggested that the shrimp method was not necessary...it's in there now, so we'll see what happens...

I've been doing nothing BUT reading since before I started and since...part of why I'm asking questions and trying to learn...

Anyway, we'll see what happens now with a better ammonia source, and for the record, I'm having lots of fun, even with the attempted dig on my research!

Thanks
 

skene

Winter. Time for Flakes..
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BioSpira is just an addition of an ammonia source. It's snake oil... if you believe that you can add in fish almost immediately... I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale.
 

skene

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As I said, multiple sources suggested that the shrimp method was not necessary...

It's not necessary. They are partially correct... You can do any fishless cycle with any source that can provide ammonia. However you will look at longer cycle times without a constant food source.
The amount of bacteria that can feed on a larger sized portion will help populate greater amounts without immediately starving off minimal amounts of flake.
 

Dre

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I think you asked a good question. Not all tank setups go through the typical cycle as we call it. Your tank skipped a few grades because you started out with live rock, live sand and a refuge thus adding a good amount of bacteria to the tank. That's why you didn't experience a spike in nitrite from the start. For example:- if you stared out with dry rock, dry sand and a bare refuge your tank would most likely experience a spike because there is no bacteria present. Therefore a ammonia source is needed to start the ball rolling. With that said, stop feeding the tank. When ammonia, nitrate and nitrate is at 0 you can add a small fish or two, feed lightly for the next few weeks but don't starve them. Test as well. Think of the tank as a baby it's crawling in a few months it will be running...
 

lnevo

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Thanks Dre. Ive only "fed" the tank once and now that the shrimp is in, I'll follow skene's advice so i can "see" the bacteria form. I'd rather start with invertabrates than with fish.

However from my stocking wish list, what would be the best "starter" fish to go with?

2 ocellaris clowns
Fairy wrasse
Some kind ofBlenny
Firefish Goby
Some schooling fish - PJ Cardinals or Green Chromis (3-7? - I heard to plan on some dying..)

Thanks!
 

skene

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You don't have to take my "advice".
You do with your tank the way that you want to do your tank. The same way that it's your money and you can spend it the way that you want to.
 

Dre

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Thanks Dre. Ive only "fed" the tank once and now that the shrimp is in, I'll follow skene's advice so i can "see" the bacteria form. I'd rather start with invertabrates than with fish.

However from my stocking wish list, what would be the best "starter" fish to go with?



Thanks!
It would seem you have to see for yourself before you believe. Nothing wrong will happen to the tank if you keep the shrimp in the tank and allowing the bacteria to colonize but right now you're sending the tank in reverse. What you have already achieved over the past week is been thrown out the window. Consider yourself stating from scratch. I'll leave it at that...
 

sunny

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BioSpira is just an addition of an ammonia source. It's snake oil... if you believe that you can add in fish almost immediately... I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale.

Sorry Skene, I totally disagree. BioSpira is live bacteria and I have used it many many times to cycle my tanks.

Another one that works very well is Dr Tim. Yes, you have to add the fish at the same time when you add BioSpira and I will take the bridge is it is still for sale :D

Sunny
 

lnevo

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Talk about the thread of differing opinions...

Sunny, appreciate the adding live bacteria option, but I'm not looking for the "quick" cycle. I am interested in making sure I've established enough of a cycle to support my future environment. I know that method is an option, but as I said, I'm ok going slow.

Dre, the point about missing the cycle and having enough live stuff that I'm far along is exactly why I started the thread. I'm not sure how I follow that adding the shrimp will set me in reverse since wouldn't that be similar to adding fish who would produce ammonia too? The point being to make sure there is enough bacteria established to support the tank? If the tank is truly ready for fish, etc. the. wouldn't I just see the nitrate levels go up! Also you mentioned that I should see all 3 levels at 0...but aren't I supposed to see nitrates rise? That was part of my original post...unless the cheato is already consuming that (I may have that part of the cycle confused though...)

Skene, I followed your advice, because as I mentioned I was already tempted early on to add the shrimp, but had read multiple sources to the contrary with all the LR. Your points regarding the shrimp vs. flake made enough of a case to go that route. More of a nudge in the direction I chose.

Keep the posts coming...definitely learning a lot here, and I'm sure this will be a good reference for others with similar questions...

Lee
 
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skene

Winter. Time for Flakes..
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Sorry Skene, I totally disagree. BioSpira is live bacteria and I have used it many many times to cycle my tanks.

Another one that works very well is Dr Tim. Yes, you have to add the fish at the same time when you add BioSpira and I will take the bridge is it is still for sale :D

Sunny

Yes I believe in claims that bacteria can have a shelf life of only god knows how long... LOL!
Once again.. Bio Spira is just a product that jump starts a cycle. Hey... I'm not knocking your methods... if it works for you and you have fish that haven't died or suffered by these means... then more power to you. But trying to spread propaganda vs real life... is just upsetting.

But there is no way that bacteria can properly colonize overnight... enough to support livestock properly. So unless that "BioSpira" is a godsend product and it makes water into wine... then don't you think more people would go out and use it religiously and recommend it over going through a proper cycle. What you attempt to do out of a bottle is sustain life... through a process that took millions of years to sustain millions upon millions of gallons of water and the countless critters being able to live through proper means... and you want it done in less then 24 hours. Does that not seem incorrect????
 

Dre

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Not all tank setups go through the typical cycle as we call it. Your tank skipped a few grades because you started out with live rock, live sand and a refuge thus adding a good amount of bacteria to the tank. That's why you didn't experience a spike in nitrite from the start. For example:- if you stared out with dry rock, dry sand and a bare refuge your tank would most likely experience a spike because there is no bacteria present. Therefore a ammonia source is needed to start the ball rolling.
I seldom post on a thread when it's not going anywhere. You have to read every word to understand my statements. I'm not new to this and i stopped using liquid bacteria since 2001 and never added a shrimp because i never found a need for it. I hope I didn't confuse you too much so with that, i'll allow someone else to enlighten you. Ask the swap crew how they add fish in less than 48 hours or the guys on Tanked ...
 
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skene

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Talk about the thread of differing opinions...

Sunny, appreciate the adding live bacteria option, but I'm not looking for the "quick" cycle. I am interested in making sure I've established enough of a cycle to support my future environment. I know that method is an option, but as I said, I'm ok going slow.

Der, the point about missing the cycle and having enough live stuff that I'm far along is exactly why I started the thread. I'm not sure how I follow that adding the shrimp will set me in reverse since wouldn't that be similar to adding fish who would produce ammonia too? The point being to make sure there is enough bacteria established to support the tank? If the tank is truly ready for fish, etc. the. wouldn't I just see the nitrate levels go up! Also you mentioned that I should see all 3 levels at 0...but aren't I supposed to see nitrates rise? That was part of my original post...unless the cheato is already consuming that (I may have that part of the cycle confused though...)

Skene, I followed your advice, because as I mentioned I was already tempted early on to add the shrimp, but had read multiple sources to the contrary with all the LR. Your points regarding the shrimp vs. flake made enough of a case to go that route. More of a nudge in the direction I chose.

Keep the posts coming...definitely learning a lot here, and I'm sure this will be a good reference for others with similar questions...

Lee

That is what we are always trying to do for our wet pets... making sure that we provide the proper environment for them.

With your tank only being 9 days into a cycle, even if you took live rock directly out of the ocean and into your tank, you would still need time for the bacteria to colonize into the sand inside your filtration... and everywhere else. It doesn't happen overnight... and you cannot convince the bacteria to do so either.
So there would be no way that you would go backwards at this early a stage. If this happened 3 weeks into a cycle and you had already seen the ammonia spike and settle... the nitrites, spike and settle... and the same for nitrates, knowing that putting shrimp into a tank would only benefit as it would only become an ongoing food source for bacteria. Beneficial yes. Harmful, not in the very least unless you did not have enough bacteria to break down the source properly to being with.
The more time invested in bacteria colonization, the healthier it will be for the livestock when added.
 

REEF MANIA

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I would throw in a few chromis. They only cost a few dollars each. I know Maximum Reef Aquatics sells them for $2 each. I agree with DRE being you added live cured rock and sand. Your only gonna get a mini cycle. Good luck with the tank. There are plenty of threads for newbies/beginners on this site. No question is a dumb question.
 

Dre

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What Is the Nitrogen Cycle?

Like all living creatures, fish give off waste products (pee and poo). These nitrogenous waste products break down into ammonia (NH3), which is highly toxic to most fishes. In nature, the volume of water per fish is extremely high, and waste products become diluted to low concentrations. In aquariums, however, it can take as little as a few hours for ammonia concentrations to reach toxic levels.

How much ammonia is too much? The quick answer is: if a test kit is able to measure it, you've got too much (i.e., it's in a high enough concentrations to stress fish). Consider emergency action (water changes and zeolite clay) to reduce the danger. (A more detailed discussion of ammonia toxicity can be found later in this section.)
In aquaria-speak, the ``nitrogen cycle'' (more precisely, the nitrification cycle) is the biological process that converts ammonia into other, relatively harmless nitrogen compounds. Fortunately, several species of bacteria do this conversion for us. Some species convert ammonia (NH3) to nitrite (N02-), while others convert nitrite to nitrate (NO3-). Thus, cycling the tank refers to the process of establishing bacterial colonies in the filter bed that convert ammonia -> nitrite -> nitrate.
The desired species of nitrifying bacteria are present everywhere (e.g., in the air). Therefore, once you have an ammonia source in your tank, it's only a matter of time before the desired bacteria establish a colony in your filter bed. The most common way to do this is to place one or two (emphasis on one or two) hardy and inexpensive fish in your aquarium. The fish waste contains the ammonia on which the bacteria live. Don't overfeed them! More food means more ammonia! Some suggested species include: common goldfish (for cold water tanks), zebra danios and barbs for warmer tanks, and damselfishes in marine systems. Note: Do not use ``toughies'' or other feeder fishes. Although cheap, they are extremely unhealthy and using them may introduce unwanted diseases to your tank.
n-cycle.gif

During the cycling process, ammonia levels will go up and then suddenly plummet as the nitrite-forming bacteria take hold. Because nitrate-forming bacteria don't even begin to appear until nitrite is present in significant quantities, nitrite levels skyrocket (as the built-up ammonia is converted), continuing to rise as the continually-produced ammonia is converted to nitrite. Once the nitrate-forming bacteria take hold, nitrite levels fall, nitrate levels rise, and the tank is fully cycled.
Your tank is fully cycled once nitrates are being produced (and ammonia and nitrite levels are zero). To determine when the cycle has completed, buy appropriate test kits (see the TEST KIT section) and measure the levels yourself, or bring water samples to your fish store and let them perform the test for you (perhaps for a small fee). The cycling process normally takes anywhere from 2-6 weeks. At temperatures below 70F, it takes even longer to cycle a tank. In comparison to other types of bacteria, nitrifying bacteria grow slowly. Under optimal conditions, it takes fully 15 hours for a colony to double in size!
It is sometimes possible to speed up the cycling time. Some common procedures for this are detailed later in this section.
Warning: AVOID THE TEMPTATION TO GET MORE FISH UNTIL AFTER YOUR TANK HAS FULLY CYCLED! More fish means more ammonia production, increasing the stress on all fish and the likelihood of fish deaths. Once ammonia levels reach highly stressful or toxic levels, your tank has succumbed to ``New Tank Syndrome''; the tank has not yet fully cycled, and the accumulating ammonia has concentrations lethal to your fish. How Much Ammonia Is Too Much?

In an established tank, ammonia should be undetectable using standard test kits available at stores. The presence of detectable levels indicates that your bio filter is not working adequately, either because your tank has not yet cycled, or the filter is not functioning adequately (e.g., too small for fish load, clogged, etc.) It is imperative that you address the problem (filter) in addition to the symptoms (high ammonia levels).

The exact concentration at which ammonia becomes toxic to fish varies among species; some are more tolerant than others. In addition, other factors like water temperature and chemistry play a significant role. For example, ammonia (NH3) continually changes to ammonium (NH4+) and vice versa, with the relative concentrations of each depending on the water's temperature and pH. Ammonia is extremely toxic; ammonium is relatively harmless. At higher temperatures and pH, more of the nitrogen is in the toxic ammonia form than at lower pH.
Standard test kits measure total ammonia (ammonia plus ammonium) without distinguishing between the two forms. The following chart gives the maximum long-term level of ammonia-N in mg/L (ppm) that can be considered safe at a given temperature and pH. Again, note that a tank with an established biological filter will have no detectable ammonia; this chart is provided only for emergency purposes. If your levels approach or exceed the levels shown, take emergency action IMMEDIATELY. Water Temperature pH 20C (68F) 25C (77F) _________________________________ 6.5 15.4 11.1 7.0 5.0 3.6 7.5 1.6 1.2 8.0 0.5 0.4 8.5 0.2 0.1Minimizing Fish Stress During Initial Cycling

Should ammonia levels become high during the cycling process, corrective measures will need to be taken to prevent fish deaths. Most likely, you will simply perform a sequence of partial water changes, thereby diluting ammonia to safer concentrations.

As a final caution, several commercial products (e.g., ``Amquel'' or ``Ammo-Lock'') safely neutralize ammonia's toxicity. Amquel does not remove the ammonia, it simply neutralizes its toxicity. Biological filtration is still needed to convert the (neutralized) ammonia to nitrite and nitrate. Thus, adding Amquel causes the ammonia produced by the fish to be neutralized instantly, yet still allows the nitrogen cycle to proceed. Using Amquel during the cycling phase has one significant drawback, however. Amquel (and similar products) may cause ammonia test kits to give false readings, making it difficult to determine exactly when cycling has completed. See the TEST KIT SECTION for details.
It is also possible to cycle a tank without ever adding fish. The role fish provide in the cycling process is simply their steady production of ammonia; the same effect can be achieved by adding chemical forms of ammonia manually (e.g., ammonium chloride). However, it is a bit more complicated than using fish because the water chemistry needs to be monitored more closely in order to add the proper amount of ammonia on a day-to-day basis. Speeding Up Cycling Time
(For the Impatient)

The nitrogen cycle can be sped up or ``jump started'' in a number of ways. Unfortunately, they require access to an established tank, which a beginning aquarist may not have available. The basic idea is to find an established tank, take some of the bacteria out of it and place them in the new tank.

Most filters have some sort of foam block or floss insert on which nitrifying bacteria attach. Borrowing all or part of such an insert and placing it in the new tank's filter gets things going more quickly.
If the established tank uses an undergravel filter, nitrifying bacteria will be attached to the gravel. Take some of the gravel (a cup or more) and hang it in a mesh bag in your filter (if you can), or lay it over the top of the gravel in the new tank (if it has an UGF).
If you have a box, sponge or corner filter, simply connect it to an established aquarium and let it run for a week or so. Bacteria in the water will establish a bed in the new filter. After a week, move the now ``seasoned'' filter to the new tank.
More recently, products containing colonies of nitrifying bacteria have become available at pet shops (e.g., ``Fritz'', ``Bio-zyme'', ``Cycle''). In theory, adding the bacteria jump-starts the colonization process as above. Net experience with such products has been mixed; some folks report success, while others report they don't work at all. In principle, such products should work well. However, nitrifying bacteria cannot live indefinitely without oxygen and food. Thus, the effectiveness of a product depends on its freshness and can be adversely effected by poor handling (e.g., overheating). Unfortunately, these products don't come with a freshness date, so there is no way to know how old they are.
Some (not many) aquarium stores will provide aquarium buyers with a cup of gravel from an established tank. A word of caution is appropriate here. Due to the nature of the business, tanks in stores are very likely to contain unwanted pathogens (bacteria, parasites, etc.); you don't want to add them to an established tank. For someone setting up their very first tank, however, all fish will probably be purchased from the same store, so the danger is relatively small, as the newly purchased fish will have been exposed to the same pathogens. If possible, seed a filter with bacteria from a non-store tank.
Of course, there are many variations on the above that work. However, it is a bit difficult to give an exact recipe that is guaranteed to work. It is advisable to take a conservative approach and not add fish too quickly. In addition, testing the water to be sure nitrates are being produced eliminates the guesswork of determining when your tank has cycled.
As i stated earlier if you like it or not you already speed up the cycle by adding live rock, live sand and a refuge. And the shrimp, if you keep it in there make no sense at this time.
 
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At the end of the day, you have to do what you find works best for you. When you're new to the hobby, the best thing is patience and doing a cycle for 1-6 months before doing anything with livestock. The longer your tank sits, the more stable it becomes. Just keep an eye on your parameters and offer the bacteria some food to keep them thriving as well as keep up on water changes.

There are a lot of "right" answers. Whatever makes the most sense to you is what you should go with so that you stay within your comfort level. I think Skene offers the best advice for a novice but for myself.... I'll dabble in the same techniques that Dre and Sunny use.

We all get to know what we know from trial and error and other's personal experiences. Because there are lives involved as far as livestock, it is more humane/environmentally friendly to take it slow.

My advice to a newbie to the hobby would be to take your time and don't rush. The more small successes that you have in time will equate to nothing but confidence boosters in the long run and will usually also equate to fewer losses. At the same time, always have pre-mix saltwater ready and a batch of RO/DI water, some sort of liquid enzyme (just in case) and some Amquel on hand (just in case).

And always dose your tank with 1/2 the recommended dosage and be a little patient. You can always add more and some tanks react differently whether it be for better or worse so always exercise caution when putting any foreign substance into a tank.

Liquid enzymes have always worked for me but so has patience. This hobby is a lot easier and more enjoyable when you have a high level of success so do whatever makes sense to you and as you gain confidence, you'll find shortcuts whether it be done with advanced planning or by accident.

A small success of my own was setting up 300g of freshly made saltwater and adding about 600Lbs of fully cured live rock. 24 hours later I added a hermit crab and made sure I put in a little for him to eat every once in a while plus he had the LR to clean.

2 weeks later I converted a FOWLR into a reef so all of the triggers, puffers and a lionfish, went into my 300g holding system to be put up for sale. 4 weeks later I sold all the fish and the hermit and began stocking my holding system. IMO, my system went thru a tiny cycle as far as my tank walls turning brown from algae. My water was never cloudy in that time period and my parameters never spiked. The first thing to have died "would" have been the hermit as inverts are usually more sensitive to spikes in parameters but it didn't. I had some mushrooms growning on the LR in the tanks as well and they were all fully open.

I didn't use any enzymes nor amquel to start and/or maintain that system.

Bottom line is, start off slow and as your comfort level grows make calculated decisions as you see fit. Most of us are too damn anxious with excitment and move too quickly and some succeed and some fall flat on their faces.

Best of luck on your build!
 

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