relationship btw PH, ALK, & Calcium

[kimoyo]

Please do not rely on your sandbed to buffer your tank enough for corals without supplementation of alkalinity and calcium in some form. This is not okay and sand alone will not be able to provide enough calc/alk to sustain those corals.

Paul,

I think there is a misunderstanding here. The focus of my response was not to belittle your post, I apologize if you took that personally, not sure why you felt I was talking about something you said in particular. I was merely stating what I saw as the point of the thread and addressing your rebutt by clarifying what I was talking about.

In referring to Randy's post, despite the fact that he makes a blanket claim that aragonite buffers nothing, the article he sources actually says this at the end, in the section titled:

Recommended Uses for Calcium Carbonate

In a tank with a low calcification rate, such as one with few corals or with mostly slow-growing corals, you might even get away with this method alone. The cost associated with even the commercial products will be fairly low, and using Southdown sand will be almost nonexistent. Still, it may be adequate to maintain pH, alkalinity, and calcium in such situations. Moreover, it will never (or almost never) become unbalanced the way separate additions of calcium and alkalinity might become over time.​

So while I definitely acknowledge that Randy Holmes Farley is an undoubted expert and far more knowledgeable than either of us (with regard to marine tank chemisty), I would say that the source he uses actually recommends the use of aragonite sand in some situations (with corals) as an option to buffer.

However, if you feel that the statement made earlier is the end all be all to this topic, I respect your choice.

Great article by the way. Still can't understand half of what Randy says though, lol.

E

E,

The situation Randy speaks about is with few corals in a tank. Even then he says it might be possible. The buffering he talks about here is from the dissolving aragonite from the lower regions of the sandbed where its possible for the pH to be much lower than the rest of the tank. But even this small buffering doesn't take into account the alkalinity drawn from the sandbed itself. Nothing personal, but relying only on the sandbed for alkalinity is not a good way to run a reef tank and I don't think it should be recommended to new reefers. Is this how you run your reef, you don't have to supplement?

Here are a few more post I found when I did the search.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=727126
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=670768

 

[ezee]

Paul,

Okay, in the interest of this conversation not being productive, this will be my last post on this topic.

I think it was pretty clear that it was never my statement to use sand alone. Actually, that was something in the article that Randy, and yourself by extension, sighted, so perhaps you should e-mail Randy and let him know your thoughts, so he can rewrite his article to properly suit your siting needs.

Your constant adding of new variables to prove your point does not go a long way in my opinion. The point was that aragonite is used by many reefers for its buffering qualities (something that your reference article corroborated), not the fact that any sandbed (arag or otherwise) can add to alk or ph issues or that I said you should use the sandbed alone to buffer (which I never did).

Furthermore, I am not sure why you feel the need to pick at this issue but feel free to do so at your leisure (without my response, of course), I just want to give you a heads up as to my perception of our conversation.

Our back and forth does not make either of us look smart, knowledgeable or helpful, it makes us look immature and petulant. Yes, me too.

From your posts, I have found you to be a fairly knowledgeable person and usually pretty on point when you are expressing a position. So, I respect your opinion and am going to feel free to state mine (within responsible reason).

E

 

[kimoyo]

E,

I'm still trying to understand the tone of your posts. You said you have read previous posts of mine but I really don't remember yours. So I'm puzzled when I offened you and what back & forth you feel happened.

To remind you of what you actually did say, this was the post you made that I responded to.

The reason many reefers use aragonite is because it helps control your PH/Alk. When the water gets acidic (low PH) it kindof melts aragonite releasing alk and calcium into the water. Automatic buffer! That is also one of the reasons the ocean doesn't experience drops in pH, it has a ton of natural buffers, like arag. Combined with water volume and other factors the the PH of the ocean is very steady.

Your giving advice to beginners, so most people will take what you say literally. Aragonite (sand or live rock) in our reefs tanks (at a resonable pH) doesn't control pH/Alk at all. The pH doesn't get low enough to do anything and it is not a buffer. Aragonite buffering from pH changes is not the (or a) reason the ocean doesn't experience pH drops. Eventhough you might not realize or forgot, what you said tells people that aragonite sand or liverock will "control" their pH/alkalinity. Because thats what you said. I referenced 3 posts but no article quotes and I'm not familar with your second generation referencing. The article you quoted in post 19 is a small section you have taken out of context of a larger article and misinterpetated as I have previously explained to you. In my responses I was clearful not to say anything negative in order to have a dicussion which your not interested in.

 

[ezee]

Paul,

That is great to hear. Actually, I felt that maybe you thought I insulted you and you were continuing to push an issue that was, effectively, moot, in my opinion.

It was my way of saying you have said your piece and I have said mine, so let there be peace. We obviously have differing opinions and ways of arguing points and both of us have valid arguments. My take is that if we continue, neither one of us is going to concede and I doubt it will end how either of us wants it to. With mutual understanding, that is.

Since I expressely said I was not going to continue on with the previous topic and I do think this is an interesting field of conversation, I propose we move to another interesting ph, alk and calc topic.

Can anyone provide an easy to understand guide to supplementing, with particular regards to kalkwasser/limewater vs. two part supplements?

Thanks,

E