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Mihai

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ChrisRD wrote:

There are those that feel a DSB has a limited lifespan and the more detritus that gets into it the quicker it will reach the end of that useful life. It's a complicated issue, and one I certainly don't know enough about to debate. Personally, I'm no longer a DSB advocate (after trying one) but that's just my personal preference.

That sounds scary. It's the first time I hear bad things about DSB (except that they obviously take up a lot of space -> my 90gal is now more a 70gal tank). And about the limited lifetime... why?

Can you please share with me any bad experiences you had with DSBs before it is too late (i.e., before I get inhabitants -> now I only have a 6" DSB and 45lb of LR in).

Thanks a lot,
Mihai
 
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Anonymous

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well i dont know how true or not that really is...I think Chris made his decision based on his experience....Fishkeeping is a science but not always an exact science...Alot of opinions get thrown around and sometimes you have to take it with a grain of salt...all of our tanks are different in one way or another...what works in one tank may not work in another....Ive been told of things i shouldnt do/cant do and i have done with success..so its good to get as much advice from others,like you are doing with this thread, before making a decision...


P.S. are you a Linux OS fan..if so right on! :P
 

Mihai

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That's what I begin to understand about this hobby: some things are clear, while others (e.g., the plenum, DSB, circulation, lights, etc.) are not quite so black and white. It's hard to figure out which are which though :-(

Yeah, I was hooked on Linux for the last ... 8 years or so. However, my next laptop will be a Mac with OS X. I am a bit intrigued by that OS, and I'm willing to give it a try. If it's bad I'll come back to the nice and warm Linux (I know that it will not be gealous in the mean time :) ).

M.
 

ChrisRD

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The DSB thing is a complicated issue IMO and it's one of those areas that is not black/white as mentioned. I don't necesarilly think they are bad - I just wouldn't bother setting one up again as I don't feel it was necessary or beneficial to my system. When I moved the system (late last year) I ditched the sand. For the way I like to maintain the tank, I find it more convenient to not have one.

I guess it depends on what philosophy you're comfortable with. Some folks like the idea of trying to naturally process all the wastes and detritus in the system - others feel it needs to be removed ASAP (ie. strong skimming, syphoning detritus, etc.). Some go with a sortof in-between approach. Many methods seem to work so I think it boils down to what you're comfortable with and what sortof system you want to keep.

Personally, I find it easier to crank-up the flow without all that fine sand in the tank and the corals really seem to respond to the increased circulation. Also, I prefer to physically remove the detritus by syphoning and wet skimming rather than relying on some natural (and IMO somewhat unpredictable) method.

BTW, one of the big selling points of DSBs is the denitrification thing. Personally, I never had any real nitrate issues with or without a DSB so that part isn't really a big appeal to me...
 

Mihai

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I see... I really like the natural process philosophy. It just seems right. It also calls for less work from my part. :)

I think I'll start with a DSB and take it from there.
Thanks,
Mihai
 

mac_guy

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I am having doubts about the DSB as well, seeing bubbles forming in my approx 3 inch sand bed. ( Dont know if that qualifies as a DSB though).

By the way, once you go OS-X from linux, you wont want another desktop OS. For servers, its really a toss up btw OS-X and Linux. Trust me on this one. I was an HP-UX and Linux sysadmin for years and tried OS-X on a cube an now i have a dual GHZ G4 with the 23inch HD Screen... oooh yeaa..... ;)
 

mehdirah

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Hello,

I had an about 1 inch sand bed in my 75 gal since nearly 4 years now. But since this summer, I began to have brown (diatom) algae on rocks, sand and glass. And since november, it's not a little but up to one inch brown filaments.

I am now brushing rocks/glass, siphoning that crap, and removing the sand little by little: the situation largely improved since the worst in november. And I will probably finish that bare bottom in a few months.

Needless to say, I don't have any nitrates for years and never had phosphates or silicon.

So, I would say: sand is a time bomb. Probably it is OK if you siphon it and wash it regularly (or maybe have big animals doing it for you such as sand filtering gobies).

So, personaly, I would say no to sand. And if you choose put some (more natural look, feel more confortable with nitrates control,...), be ready for regular maintenance.
 

investigator1

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Sigh.......another DSB debate.

In case you didn't figure it out by now the consensus is split in half about DSB's.

Here is my opinion:

DSB's can be utilized effectively. In order for this to take place you must have a very low bioload in your tank. I think that if you have a 100 gallon tank and a gazillion fish. There is no way it will work. But if you have a 29 gallon and 0 to 1 fish then it will work.
 

Mihai

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In case you didn't figure it out by now the consensus is split in half about DSB's


Well, I don't know about the "half" part: in this thread there are clearly more on the "no way" side.

I'm getting more and more confused: I thought that the main advantage of the DSB is the improved filtration (alows denitrification), and hence it can support more fishes rather than less fishes.

To my understanding the LR alone should take care of filtration in a 29 gal with 1 fish. In this case you really don't need the DSB.

Did I miss anything? (I'm talking from the books, as experience is =0 for now).

Mihai
 

mehdirah

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What does a DSB ?

As a mostly anaerobic area with slow water circulation, it allow bacteria to transform nitrates (NO3-) to gazeous nitrogen, which escape from the system. So, it's the main role: denitrification. Note that the same phenomenon also occurs inside live rocks, so sand is optional. If you see my previous post, I can definitely say that it works well!

But the problem is that is also stores organic matter (just see water colour when you siphon it), which slowly transforms-->leaking nutriments, ie phosphorus in organic molecules, which are not detected by phosphate tests... but can be used by algae.

When I read the forums, I have the impression that some people see DSB as a magic system which destroy all pollutants. But we know that is physically impossible, things just transform...nitrogen is really removed from the system because it becomes an inert soluble gas. But not phsophorus which always stays in the system as various chimical compounds.

Eventually, calcium phosphate could be an inert form as it is not soluble, at least if you have a high PH and calcium level, but i don't know if this effect was ever proved in an aquarium. So, I wouldn't count on it.

So, if you put sand, don't put much: less dirt will accumulate and as few as 1 cm (1/2.54 of an inch) is fine for denitrification (I observed that on a micro-reef I had at home a few years ago). Don't put any sand under live rocks: as there is no water circulation, it won't be of any use and will go badly anaerobic, with sulfate reduction to H2S (stinks, toxic to fish, sand/rocks in contact become black). And wash it regularly (you will be surprised in what can accumulate in a few months) and/or use fish to do the job.

There are many posts about DSB in the general discussion forum, far more detailled that what I explain here, so you can read them and make your choice.
 

Mihai

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Oh man, the weekly discussion thread on DSB vs BB was an eye opening
discussion!

I understand now that the DSB can be a sink/sponge for
phosphates. It will take several years to fill up. Once it is "full"
wouldn't it be from the phosphate point of view just like a BB? That
is, once full, it will not take any more phosphates and they'll end up
as algae and perhaps exported? Why is this any worse than a BB?

The algae blooms mentioned several times in this thread seem to happen
only if a significant amount of phosphates will be released suddenly
(in bursts), but I can't figure out why would that happen...

Thanks,
Mihai
 

mehdirah

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I reread the dr. Shimek article you just linked. He describe the DSB which works: fauna which process food, which is finally decomposed, and finally is used by algae. Very fine in theory and in his aquariums.

My first question after reading is: fine, fine, but do I want to have to harvest algae in my aquarium as he describe it to do the export ? My answer is definitely not in the tank (it is what I am doing now with my brown diatomea, but this is not my ultimate reef aquarium maintenance goal). Maybe in a refugium (that I don't have but could install).

The second problem is critters in the sand. He aknowledge himself that the level of critters he observes in his aquarium is maybe above aquarium mean (altough in nature mean). I can definitely say that on my two long term DSB (my old microreef and my actuel 75 gal), the sand is anaerobic (=black) under a few milimeters. No animal can live into those condition, only anaerobic bacteria (and I have a mix of various sand sizes as he recommends). So I am still asking myself how he does to have critters living on a certain depth. I am sure many people does not manage to reproduce that, and definitely not me.

About live sand, I didn't have that: you cannot find it in belgium (or I don't know where). Just began with "dead sand" and pounds of live rock (10 for my old micro, 70 for my 75 gal, including the 10 of the micro which were transfered). I actually have many criters linving at the surface of sand, ie many small red worms, algae eating isopods.

In fact, the only animal who really stirs the sand is my A. clarkii when it wants a bigger cavity to hide under a rock. The beast is strong (and the aquarium water goes coudy for 15 minutes too!). That is another reason I am removing sand: all the detritus of a sand portion can be put in water in a few seconds by that fish. And the last time (understand friday), it even put sand on my poor innocent Tridacna.
 
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Anonymous

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My A.Clarkii (Proteus II) likes to stir up the sand bed too..im not sure why, but not to make a larger cave, IME..however it doesnt make my tank cloudy for 15min though..
 

mehdirah

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OK, I maybe exagerated saying cloudy, but definitely lot of particles in the water. I see that all A. clarkii are the same :D

PS: about the ursin in my other post, it is not the same aquarium. I have a old fish aquarium in my parents house that I converted to reef this summer, while the younger aquarium in my house is a reef one since the begining.
 

ChrisRD

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Mihai":38s8icj1 said:
I understand now that the DSB can be a sink/sponge for
phosphates. It will take several years to fill up. Once it is "full"
wouldn't it be from the phosphate point of view just like a BB? That
is, once full, it will not take any more phosphates and they'll end up
as algae and perhaps exported? Why is this any worse than a BB?

The two methods are nothing alike really...

With a BB you can keep flow high so most detritus stays suspended and gets removed by your skimmer (or filter pads, micron socks, etc. if you go with any mechanical filtration). Even if you can't keep it all suspended (or you're not trying to), it's easy to syphon out any excess detritus that accumulates in the system during a water change. Either way, the detritus (thus the phosphates) are being actively exported on a regular basis.

A DSB is generally made up sediments containing very fine particles. The flow rates necessary to keep detritus in suspension will also keep fine sand particles in suspension, so it's pretty tough to have that kind of flow with a DSB in the main tank. This means that detritus is going to settle out and end-up in the bed. Theoretically this detritus gets processed by the animals living in the sand. The concern is, if it doesn't get fully processed or only processed to a certain point (for whatever reasons), eventually there will be an accumulation of detritus in the bed. This lack of export is where the potential problems come-in (long-term)...

HTH
 

Mihai

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I start to see the light :).

Therefore, there is no way to get 20X circulation with a DSB? How about 10X circulation?
M.
 

ChrisRD

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I'm sorta generalizing when I say "flow" or "flow rates". I should probably be more specific. High flow velocities (and turbulence) are actually what cause problems with kicking the fine sediments up. There's no real hard-n-fast numbers. You can have a wide range of flow velocities at similar turnover rates. For example, if you're using all 1/2" outlets vs. using 1" outlets. You can have the same turnover rate in the tank, but the setup with the smaller nozzles will generate more turbulence and higher flow velocities.

IMO you want to find a balance - enough velocity/turbulence to keep lots of the detritus suspended, and no dead spots, while not going overboard and creating high enough velocities to harm fish or corals. Personally, I find this harder to achieve with fine sediments in the display tank as they tend to be the limiting factor (ie. I'd like to get things moving more, but the sand is blowing around too much).

In any case, it can be pretty tough to keep everything suspended, but with a BB or a thin layer of substrate it's much easier to syphon/vacuum any accumulations when you do a water change. With a BB you also have the option of having a spraybar or powerhead "sweeping" the bottom, preventing anything from accumulating.
 

leftovers

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First of all those with DSB's can sleep easy as your tank is in no immenent danger of melting down....and for those with bb tanks your's will work just fine as well.

Sure dsb's will accumulate some detritus(inert and organic) ALL sand beds do. To help reduce the amount its good to have variety of life in it and life that constantly shifts the sand - just like the natural ocean.

It's also good to note that sand in your tank slowly disolves and in high ph water slightly more quickly. Over the course of several years its not unusual to have to add 1 or more inches of sand.

That everyone now is running away from dsb's is comical. There is no hard evidence that having one in anyway is detrimental to the tank in either the short or long run.

There is only a mountain of anecdotal evidence going either way.

Do dsb's work? Yes. Are there potential draw backs? Yes. Is it right for you? Only you can decide. You can start with just 1-2" and be happy for the life of the tank and still get the denitrification effects. You could add 3-6" and also be happy for years.

So read the SCIENTIFIC evidence and observe the natural world and relax there are will always be more than one way to achieve a successful tank.
 

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